A real reason for gravel bikes?

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel� if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/18/2020 1:36 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back
into gravel� if nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html


As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine,
have many more miles of county roads than do others. But the
state's funds distributed for county road maintenence gives
each county 1/88 of the total instead of giving on a
per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.


That 'back to gravel' thing intrigued me when first
publicized a few years ago. A friend who raises beef in
Nebraska says there are roads for which it saves money ( low
traffic, no heavy trucks) and roads where it does not.

Similarly in Wisconsin, one of our customers, a traffic
engineer, worked out that paved shoulders on county roads
can save money both on herbicide/mowing and also faster
snowplow speeds. Great for cyclists too.

That said, these ideas have complex components and not one
solution applies universally.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:36:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel� if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.


I can't complain about the condition of our country roads. They are well maintained compared to Germany and Belgium were I ride also frequently especially Germany. The roads in Belgium are awful. There are no borders anymore but as soon as you cross the invisible Belgium border you now immidiately you are in Belgium. Your fillings are rattling out of your teeth.

Lou
--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, 18 February 2020 16:12:43 UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:36:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel� if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.


I can't complain about the condition of our country roads. They are well maintained compared to Germany and Belgium were I ride also frequently especially Germany. The roads in Belgium are awful. There are no borders anymore but as soon as you cross the invisible Belgium border you now immidiately you are in Belgium. Your fillings are rattling out of your teeth.

Lou
--
- Frank Krygowski

That's exactly what Duane says about riding from Quebec to Ontario Canada.

Cheers

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 1:22:44 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 February 2020 16:12:43 UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:36:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel� if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.


I can't complain about the condition of our country roads. They are well maintained compared to Germany and Belgium were I ride also frequently especially Germany. The roads in Belgium are awful. There are no borders anymore but as soon as you cross the invisible Belgium border you now immidiately you are in Belgium. Your fillings are rattling out of your teeth.

Lou
--
- Frank Krygowski

That's exactly what Duane says about riding from Quebec to Ontario Canada..

Cheers

This is interesting. Why do you suppose they went from very good roads during the Presidency of Eisenhower to the slow degradation of roads since? They are continually asking for additional taxes for road repairs. People, sick of the poor roads comply and pass these taxes and nothing seems to ever come of them. I noted road repairs after the last gas tax increase - in one rich neighborhood that had good roads to begin with.

On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel” if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:41:10 PM UTC-6, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 1:22:44 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 February 2020 16:12:43 UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:36:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel� if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.


I can't complain about the condition of our country roads. They are well maintained compared to Germany and Belgium were I ride also frequently especially Germany. The roads in Belgium are awful. There are no borders anymore but as soon as you cross the invisible Belgium border you now immidiately you are in Belgium. Your fillings are rattling out of your teeth.

Lou
--
- Frank Krygowski

That's exactly what Duane says about riding from Quebec to Ontario Canada.

Cheers

This is interesting. Why do you suppose they went from very good roads during the Presidency of Eisenhower to the slow degradation of roads since?


????? Eisenhower was in office about 70 years ago. He started the national Interstate road system. Based upon the road network he observed in Germany during World War 2. In the 1950s there was not two cars for every single human being. There was not as many roads. The car culture had not become the meaning of the USA yet. There were also less people. Now there are 330 million people in the USA. People who consume stuff. People who buy stuff. People who need stores to sell them stuff. Stores that need roads to haul all the stuff to the store. Stores that need heavy semi trucks to haul the stuff. Heavy semis that destroy the roads. 70 years of heavy trucks on roads destroy the roads and eventually they need to be replaced. How many cars built during Eisenhower's reign do you see being driven today? None. They all wore out. And the roads have to be replaced too.

On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel” if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/18/2020 5:23 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:41:10 PM UTC-6, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 1:22:44 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 February 2020 16:12:43 UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:36:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel� if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.


I can't complain about the condition of our country roads. They are well maintained compared to Germany and Belgium were I ride also frequently especially Germany. The roads in Belgium are awful. There are no borders anymore but as soon as you cross the invisible Belgium border you now immidiately you are in Belgium. Your fillings are rattling out of your teeth.

Lou
--
- Frank Krygowski

That's exactly what Duane says about riding from Quebec to Ontario Canada.

Cheers

This is interesting. Why do you suppose they went from very good roads during the Presidency of Eisenhower to the slow degradation of roads since?


????? Eisenhower was in office about 70 years ago. He started the national Interstate road system. Based upon the road network he observed in Germany during World War 2. In the 1950s there was not two cars for every single human being. There was not as many roads. The car culture had not become the meaning of the USA yet. There were also less people. Now there are 330 million people in the USA. People who consume stuff. People who buy stuff. People who need stores to sell them stuff. Stores that need roads to haul all the stuff to the store. Stores that need heavy semi trucks to haul the stuff. Heavy semis that destroy the roads. 70 years of heavy trucks on roads destroy the roads and eventually they need to be replaced. How many cars built during Eisenhower's reign do you see being driven today? None. They all wore out. And the roads have to be replaced too.


+1 on all that. THX.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 1:41:10 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 1:22:44 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 February 2020 16:12:43 UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:36:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel� if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.


I can't complain about the condition of our country roads. They are well maintained compared to Germany and Belgium were I ride also frequently especially Germany. The roads in Belgium are awful. There are no borders anymore but as soon as you cross the invisible Belgium border you now immidiately you are in Belgium. Your fillings are rattling out of your teeth.

Lou
--
- Frank Krygowski

That's exactly what Duane says about riding from Quebec to Ontario Canada.

Cheers

This is interesting. Why do you suppose they went from very good roads during the Presidency of Eisenhower to the slow degradation of roads since? They are continually asking for additional taxes for road repairs. People, sick of the poor roads comply and pass these taxes and nothing seems to ever come of them. I noted road repairs after the last gas tax increase - in one rich neighborhood that had good roads to begin with.

Eisenhower was the interstate system and not county roads, but existing roads were better 60 years ago -- in large part because they were 60 years newer.

Apart from graft and the usual inefficiencies in road building and repair, road maintenance budgets are stretched because of lost gas tax revenues, competition with other public transportation modes, new road construction -- and just a lot of roads to maintain.

I'll defer to SMS on this, but it is my understanding that funding for local road construction can come from a lot of sources (state and local bonds, local option taxes, gas tax, etc.), but maintenance may have fewer funding sources or a lower priority over existing sources. When a county gets a nice new rural road, it can be like getting a free Bugatti. It gets a hot new car but can't afford the $21,000 oil change. And if a county is building a lot of new roads, its funding sources may be tapped, and it has nothing left for maintenance -- and then it has even more roads to maintain. One reason why roads are going to hell is because there are so many new roads.

-- Jay Beattie.