Better Braking?

On 2/5/2020 10:44 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/4/2020 8:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Jay, I keep asking "Better in what way?" I don't get much
for answers. Better meaning you squeeze a little less hard
for maximum deceleration? (Um... wow. I've needed maximum
deceleration once in the last ten years, and only to
demonstrate it before then.) Better as in a little more tire
clearance than dual pivots? (But a lot less than V-brakes or
other cantilevers.) Better as in you can swap them between
your bikes at will? (Definitely not.) Better as in lighter
weight? (No, cantilevers are usually lighter; and BTW, some
cantis are just as aero.) Better as in less complicated
mechanically? (Sorry, not close.)

Better as in trendier? YES!! We have a winner!

Have you tried Di2? No.Â* CF wheels? No.Â* Garmin anything?
No. Discs? No. What equipment made in the last twenty
years (apart from tires and chains) have you tried?Â* Do
you even have STI? A cellphone?

I haven't tried Di2. I've tried CF wheels on a friend's
bike. No, I don't need Garmin (really, what for??). Yes,
I've tried discs on several bikes. No, I don't have STI, but
two family members do, as well as many friends, and I've
ridden one of those bikes a lot and worked on several of
them to help the owners out. Yes, I have a cell phone (which
is why I don't need a Garmin). Yes, I do have gear that was
developed in the past 20 years, which is what you probably
meant. No, I don't run out and buy whatever the bike
industry is flailing on about each year. Instead I consider
advantages and disadvantages, mostly concerning how the
latest gizmo would affect my riding experience.

But enough of the ad hominem nonsense. This isn't supposed
to be a fashion discussion group or a psych discussion
group. If you've got to go there to defend your new toys,
you're failing Tech.



After several posts your argument hasn't impressed me at all. Our
grandfathers rode fixed or single freewheel and arrived at work
generally more on time than the present population.Â* If 12 speeds or
direct mounts brakes are silly affected frills, one might say the same
about a Sturmey three gearbox or even your 'aero age' 1930s cantilevers.

Hey the world is a biog place and I tell you sincerely, from many years
observation, that people make decisions for a huge host of reasons many
of which they do not fully understand themselves. That applies to
bicycle or other purchases as well as to big girls/slim girls and so on.

People like what they like and that, for me, explains it fully,.

That's an admirably tolerant attitude; but ISTM it seriously devalues
technical discussion.

Over the years, we've read arguments and had people rhapsodize about how
excellent are aluminum frames that are stiff and light, or steel frames
that are more lively, or titanium that ride like nothing else, or carbon
fiber that's stiffer yet, or carbon fiber that absorbs vibrations, or
Zertz inserts that smooth the ride, or shorter wheelbases or bigger fork
rakes ... and on and on.

We've heard that 6 cogs were better than 5, 7 better yet, then 8, 9, 10,
11 and 12. At the same time, we've been told that three chainrings are
better than two, two are better than three, and one is best of all.

People have sung the praises of 19mm tires, 23mm, 25s, 28s, tubulars,
clinchers, tubeless, Kevlar belted and more. We've had proponents of
dozens of tire brands. We've similar discussions about headlights,
pedals, bottom bracket designs, brakes and more. And almost all the
proponents of almost all those devices told us _why_ they were better.
Not "... better for me." Just "Better!"

It's hard to accept that all those people were factually correct. They
were usually disagreeing with each other, or with what came just before.

The most charitable thing to say is that those people were stating
rational choices based on a balance of advantages and disadvantages for
their own particular riding style and conditions; or perhaps, for most
people's riding styles and conditions. And if they stated it that way, I
wouldn't disagree. (As proof, I've stated many times that discs make
sense for Jay's daily wet commuting rides.)

But it's hard not to notice that the bulk of the arguments have been in
favor of _whatever_ has been the most trendy bit of bike gear. Some
people have even switched viewpoints on very specific details so they
could be in favor of whatever seems newest.

My consistent position has been that we should examine both benefits and
detriments, and we should attempt to quantify things - especially
purported benefits. I'm surprised that's considered heretical in a
"tech" discussion group.

Personally, I've also stated that I value reliability, repairability and
versatility, and I'm largely immune to trends and fashions. I admit
those are personal choices. But if those opposing those values would
just admit they value trendiness and fashion more - or at least, very
highly - we'd have less disagreement.

(But we'd also have fewer interesting discussions!)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/5/2020 12:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 7:06:53 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But many people _think_ many things work better; or they _think_ they
are better quality. And indeed, they actually enjoy them more because
they _think_ they're better. It's so heartwarming!

Yes, you Frank, are the only person who sees things clearly -- and not the people who actually use modern equipment on a daily basis.

Take discs for example. I've owned five or six brands of cantis. Cantis with STI levers on my old T100 barely stopped the bike in wet weather hauling a Burley trailer with my young son in it. They screamed to high heaven and ate rims. Wow, that's a total plus! I get to rebuild my wheels every two years. I got a different brand to work O.K. on the tandem with steel straddle rods. https://tinyurl.com/svgfzdl. But on long descents (which we actually have around here), I'd overheat the rims and blow front tires. I never did get around to installing a drag brake. If you live in some place that is not dead flat, you have to buy extra equipment to stop your tandem. Another canti plus.

Meanwhile, riding to work this morning in a rain storm -- at least it wasn't ice like yesterday -- my tried and true hydro discs were dead quiet, stopped as well as dual pivots in dry weather and didn't eat my rims. And going down a massively broken up 16-20% wet descent, having brakes that actually worked was a huge plus, assuming I wanted to stop at the bottom. Cable and hydro discs have worked far better for me for over the last 15 years than cantis ever did -- yet you would dismiss them as a marketing fad.

Jay, please write this down so I can stop repeating it:

I'm not saying that disc brakes are not better for YOU. You're over in
the 0.1 percentile, an American who lives in a very rainy climate with
very hilly terrain who rides his bike to work damned near every day.
Surely you understand that is nowhere close to the norm!

Got that written down?

But: Disc brakes are not being marketed to just that cohort. (If they
were, they wouldn't be worth marketing.) They are not being marketed
just to mountain bikers. They are being promoted as THE best brake for
_everyone_, including people riding "comfort bikes" with tractor saddles
on MUPs. Do you really think that's not bull****?

As to your experience with the T1000: Of course, I have cantis on my
earlier version of that same bike. Occasionally they have squealed and I
have had to adjust them, but it's at worst an annual chore. And I've
never replaced a rim because of that. Why? Probably because I don't ride
in rain as much as you, and I don't do as many steep hills. But again, I
suspect my riding is much more typical than yours.

Regarding the tandem: It's noteworthy that cantilevers were standard on
tandems for decades, and still are. Even back when Phil Wood came out
with his tandem disc brake, there was no rush to dispense with
cantilevers on tandems. Santana until recently had a web page explaining
why discs were _not_ better for tandems! Until, that is, they saw the
bandwagon getting crowded and decided to jump on with their own monster
disc design. They still use rim brakes as the default.

Are discs better for some uses? Yes. Are discs better for everybody? Not
even close; because "better" in ways that don't matter is not really
"better."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/5/2020 12:11 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 5:35:24 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I'll grant you points for consistency. "If I want wider tires I'll just
go buy another bike" makes as much sense as "If I get tired of direct
mount brakes I'll just go buy another bike."

I prefer versatility. I don't buy bikes the way my wife buys shoes.


--
- Frank Krygowski

No you buy a bike with brakes that suits you at that time and stick with them and ride the living sh*t out of that bike.

Son of a gun! That's what I do! But then, why do you make fun of me
riding old stuff?

I don't upgrade a bike. I think that is silly.

OK, I disagree there. I have changed many things on my bikes. I think
many people here have done that.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/5/2020 12:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/5/2020 12:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 7:06:53 PM UTC-8, Frank
Krygowski wrote:

But many people _think_ many things work better; or they
_think_ they
are better quality. And indeed, they actually enjoy them
more because
they _think_ they're better. It's so heartwarming!

Yes, you Frank, are the only person who sees things
clearly -- and not the people who actually use modern
equipment on a daily basis.

Take discs for example. I've owned five or six brands of
cantis. Cantis with STI levers on my old T100 barely
stopped the bike in wet weather hauling a Burley trailer
with my young son in it. They screamed to high heaven and
ate rims. Wow, that's a total plus! I get to rebuild my
wheels every two years. I got a different brand to work
O.K. on the tandem with steel straddle rods.
https://tinyurl.com/svgfzdl. But on long descents (which
we actually have around here), I'd overheat the rims and
blow front tires. I never did get around to installing a
drag brake. If you live in some place that is not dead
flat, you have to buy extra equipment to stop your tandem.
Another canti plus.

Meanwhile, riding to work this morning in a rain storm --
at least it wasn't ice like yesterday -- my tried and true
hydro discs were dead quiet, stopped as well as dual
pivots in dry weather and didn't eat my rims. And going
down a massively broken up 16-20% wet descent, having
brakes that actually worked was a huge plus, assuming I
wanted to stop at the bottom. Cable and hydro discs have
worked far better for me for over the last 15 years than
cantis ever did -- yet you would dismiss them as a
marketing fad.

Jay, please write this down so I can stop repeating it:

I'm not saying that disc brakes are not better for YOU.
You're over in the 0.1 percentile, an American who lives in
a very rainy climate with very hilly terrain who rides his
bike to work damned near every day. Surely you understand
that is nowhere close to the norm!

Got that written down?

But: Disc brakes are not being marketed to just that cohort.
(If they were, they wouldn't be worth marketing.) They are
not being marketed just to mountain bikers. They are being
promoted as THE best brake for _everyone_, including people
riding "comfort bikes" with tractor saddles on MUPs. Do you
really think that's not bull****?

As to your experience with the T1000: Of course, I have
cantis on my earlier version of that same bike. Occasionally
they have squealed and I have had to adjust them, but it's
at worst an annual chore. And I've never replaced a rim
because of that. Why? Probably because I don't ride in rain
as much as you, and I don't do as many steep hills. But
again, I suspect my riding is much more typical than yours.

Regarding the tandem: It's noteworthy that cantilevers were
standard on tandems for decades, and still are. Even back
when Phil Wood came out with his tandem disc brake, there
was no rush to dispense with cantilevers on tandems. Santana
until recently had a web page explaining why discs were
_not_ better for tandems! Until, that is, they saw the
bandwagon getting crowded and decided to jump on with their
own monster disc design. They still use rim brakes as the
default.

Are discs better for some uses? Yes. Are discs better for
everybody? Not even close; because "better" in ways that
don't matter is not really "better."


As Mr Honeker might have noted, nobody needs a big American
V8. The Trabant is perfectly engineered to East German driving.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/5/2020 10:26 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

As Mr Honeker might have noted, nobody needs a big American V8. The
Trabant is perfectly engineered to East German driving.

Well you can ride in a Trabant stretch limousine in Berlin
https://ctcdn.azureedge.net/cloudcache/f/4/4/4/a/2/f444a2a4118858ac9f8016f30aefa3596006a585.jpg.

You can also take Trabant tour in Berlin where you drive original
Trabants, though I suspect that the engine and transmission are not
original
https://www.tripadvisor.com/AttractionProductReview-g187323-d11485311-Berlin_Wall_Self_Drive_Trabant_Tour_in_Berlin-Berlin.html.

On 2/5/2020 10:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/5/2020 12:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 7:06:53 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But many people _think_ many things work better; or they _think_ they
are better quality. And indeed, they actually enjoy them more because
they _think_ they're better. It's so heartwarming!

Yes, you Frank, are the only person who sees things clearly -- and not
the people who actually use modern equipment on a daily basis.

Take discs for example. I've owned five or six brands of cantis.
Cantis with STI levers on my old T100 barely stopped the bike in wet
weather hauling a Burley trailer with my young son in it. They
screamed to high heaven and ate rims. Wow, that's a total plus! I get
to rebuild my wheels every two years.Â* I got a different brand to work
O.K. on the tandem with steel straddle rods.
https://tinyurl.com/svgfzdl. But on long descents (which we actually
have around here),Â* I'd overheat the rims and blow front tires. I
never did get around to installing a drag brake.Â* If you live in some
place that is not dead flat, you have to buy extra equipment to stop
your tandem. Another canti plus.

Meanwhile, riding to work this morning in a rain storm -- at least it
wasn't ice like yesterday -- my tried and true hydro discs were dead
quiet, stopped as well as dual pivots in dry weather and didn't eat my
rims. And going down a massively broken up 16-20% wet descent, having
brakes that actually worked was a huge plus, assuming I wanted to stop
at the bottom.Â* Cable and hydro discs have worked far better for me
for over the last 15 years than cantis ever did -- yet you would
dismiss them as a marketing fad.

Jay, please write this down so I can stop repeating it:

I'm not saying that disc brakes are not better for YOU. You're over in
the 0.1 percentile, an American who lives in a very rainy climate with
very hilly terrain who rides his bike to work damned near every day.
Surely you understand that is nowhere close to the norm!

Got that written down?

But: Disc brakes are not being marketed to just that cohort. (If they
were, they wouldn't be worth marketing.) They are not being marketed
just to mountain bikers. They are being promoted as THE best brake for
_everyone_, including people riding "comfort bikes" with tractor saddles
on MUPs. Do you really think that's not bull****?

As to your experience with the T1000: Of course, I have cantis on my
earlier version of that same bike. Occasionally they have squealed and I
have had to adjust them, but it's at worst an annual chore. And I've
never replaced a rim because of that. Why? Probably because I don't ride
in rain as much as you, and I don't do as many steep hills. But again, I
suspect my riding is much more typical than yours.

Regarding the tandem: It's noteworthy that cantilevers were standard on
tandems for decades, and still are. Even back when Phil Wood came out
with his tandem disc brake, there was no rush to dispense with
cantilevers on tandems. Santana until recently had a web page explaining
why discs were _not_ better for tandems! Until, that is, they saw the
bandwagon getting crowded and decided to jump on with their own monster
disc design. They still use rim brakes as the default.

Santana has a long history of explaining why technology X is unsuitable
for tandems, then shortly thereafter promoting technology X as the
greatest thing for tandems, the difference being, Santana started
selling a tandem with technology X.

Examples include aluminum frames, carbon fiber, and discs as you note.

Mark J.

On 2/5/2020 2:03 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 2/5/2020 10:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/5/2020 12:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 7:06:53 PM UTC-8, Frank
Krygowski wrote:

But many people _think_ many things work better; or they
_think_ they
are better quality. And indeed, they actually enjoy them
more because
they _think_ they're better. It's so heartwarming!

Yes, you Frank, are the only person who sees things
clearly -- and not the people who actually use modern
equipment on a daily basis.

Take discs for example. I've owned five or six brands of
cantis. Cantis with STI levers on my old T100 barely
stopped the bike in wet weather hauling a Burley trailer
with my young son in it. They screamed to high heaven and
ate rims. Wow, that's a total plus! I get to rebuild my
wheels every two years. I got a different brand to work
O.K. on the tandem with steel straddle rods.
https://tinyurl.com/svgfzdl. But on long descents (which
we actually have around here), I'd overheat the rims
and blow front tires. I never did get around to
installing a drag brake. If you live in some place that
is not dead flat, you have to buy extra equipment to stop
your tandem. Another canti plus.

Meanwhile, riding to work this morning in a rain storm --
at least it wasn't ice like yesterday -- my tried and
true hydro discs were dead quiet, stopped as well as dual
pivots in dry weather and didn't eat my rims. And going
down a massively broken up 16-20% wet descent, having
brakes that actually worked was a huge plus, assuming I
wanted to stop at the bottom. Cable and hydro discs
have worked far better for me for over the last 15 years
than cantis ever did -- yet you would dismiss them as a
marketing fad.

Jay, please write this down so I can stop repeating it:

I'm not saying that disc brakes are not better for YOU.
You're over in the 0.1 percentile, an American who lives
in a very rainy climate with very hilly terrain who rides
his bike to work damned near every day. Surely you
understand that is nowhere close to the norm!

Got that written down?

But: Disc brakes are not being marketed to just that
cohort. (If they were, they wouldn't be worth marketing.)
They are not being marketed just to mountain bikers. They
are being promoted as THE best brake for _everyone_,
including people riding "comfort bikes" with tractor
saddles on MUPs. Do you really think that's not bull****?

As to your experience with the T1000: Of course, I have
cantis on my earlier version of that same bike.
Occasionally they have squealed and I have had to adjust
them, but it's at worst an annual chore. And I've never
replaced a rim because of that. Why? Probably because I
don't ride in rain as much as you, and I don't do as many
steep hills. But again, I suspect my riding is much more
typical than yours.

Regarding the tandem: It's noteworthy that cantilevers
were standard on tandems for decades, and still are. Even
back when Phil Wood came out with his tandem disc brake,
there was no rush to dispense with cantilevers on tandems.
Santana until recently had a web page explaining why discs
were _not_ better for tandems! Until, that is, they saw
the bandwagon getting crowded and decided to jump on with
their own monster disc design. They still use rim brakes
as the default.

Santana has a long history of explaining why technology X is
unsuitable for tandems, then shortly thereafter promoting
technology X as the greatest thing for tandems, the
difference being, Santana started selling a tandem with
technology X.

Examples include aluminum frames, carbon fiber, and discs as
you note.

Mark J.

Yes that's specifically true although not entirely.

All of those things changed (aluminum alloys, uniformity,
temper and joining techniques) significantly between 'won't
fly' and 'here's our new model'.

But you are not wrong in principle. I remember when
Campagnolo's position was that professional or even skilled
riders did not 'need' index shifting systems.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/5/2020 12:03 PM, Mark J. wrote:

snip

Santana has a long history of explaining why technology X is unsuitable
for tandems, then shortly thereafter promoting technology X as the
greatest thing for tandems, the difference being, Santana started
selling a tandem with technology X.

Examples include aluminum frames, carbon fiber, and discs as you note.

Do they then also claim that prior to Santana employing that technology
that everyone else did it wrong? Not that we would know of any other
company that does that sort of thing.

On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 6:26:28 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/5/2020 12:16 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/5/2020 12:22 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 7:06:53 PM UTC-8, Frank
Krygowski wrote:

But many people _think_ many things work better; or they
_think_ they
are better quality. And indeed, they actually enjoy them
more because
they _think_ they're better. It's so heartwarming!

Yes, you Frank, are the only person who sees things
clearly -- and not the people who actually use modern
equipment on a daily basis.

Take discs for example. I've owned five or six brands of
cantis. Cantis with STI levers on my old T100 barely
stopped the bike in wet weather hauling a Burley trailer
with my young son in it. They screamed to high heaven and
ate rims. Wow, that's a total plus! I get to rebuild my
wheels every two years. I got a different brand to work
O.K. on the tandem with steel straddle rods.
https://tinyurl.com/svgfzdl. But on long descents (which
we actually have around here), I'd overheat the rims and
blow front tires. I never did get around to installing a
drag brake. If you live in some place that is not dead
flat, you have to buy extra equipment to stop your tandem.
Another canti plus.

Meanwhile, riding to work this morning in a rain storm --
at least it wasn't ice like yesterday -- my tried and true
hydro discs were dead quiet, stopped as well as dual
pivots in dry weather and didn't eat my rims. And going
down a massively broken up 16-20% wet descent, having
brakes that actually worked was a huge plus, assuming I
wanted to stop at the bottom. Cable and hydro discs have
worked far better for me for over the last 15 years than
cantis ever did -- yet you would dismiss them as a
marketing fad.

Jay, please write this down so I can stop repeating it:

I'm not saying that disc brakes are not better for YOU.
You're over in the 0.1 percentile, an American who lives in
a very rainy climate with very hilly terrain who rides his
bike to work damned near every day. Surely you understand
that is nowhere close to the norm!

Got that written down?

But: Disc brakes are not being marketed to just that cohort.
(If they were, they wouldn't be worth marketing.) They are
not being marketed just to mountain bikers. They are being
promoted as THE best brake for _everyone_, including people
riding "comfort bikes" with tractor saddles on MUPs. Do you
really think that's not bull****?

As to your experience with the T1000: Of course, I have
cantis on my earlier version of that same bike. Occasionally
they have squealed and I have had to adjust them, but it's
at worst an annual chore. And I've never replaced a rim
because of that. Why? Probably because I don't ride in rain
as much as you, and I don't do as many steep hills. But
again, I suspect my riding is much more typical than yours.

Regarding the tandem: It's noteworthy that cantilevers were
standard on tandems for decades, and still are. Even back
when Phil Wood came out with his tandem disc brake, there
was no rush to dispense with cantilevers on tandems. Santana
until recently had a web page explaining why discs were
_not_ better for tandems! Until, that is, they saw the
bandwagon getting crowded and decided to jump on with their
own monster disc design. They still use rim brakes as the
default.

Are discs better for some uses? Yes. Are discs better for
everybody? Not even close; because "better" in ways that
don't matter is not really "better."


As Mr Honeker might have noted, nobody needs a big American
V8. The Trabant is perfectly engineered to East German driving.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Don't knock the Trabant. If the ecoclowns have their way, the only car you'll be able to buy will be a Trabant.

Andre Jute
Good ol' Karl Marx would be awful depressed to know his heirs are... ecologists.

On 2/5/2020 4:53 PM, Mark J. wrote:
On 2/5/2020 12:16 PM, sms wrote:
On 2/5/2020 12:03 PM, Mark J. wrote:

snip

Santana has a long history of explaining why technology X is
unsuitable for tandems, then shortly thereafter promoting technology
X as the greatest thing for tandems, the difference being, Santana
started selling a tandem with technology X.

Examples include aluminum frames, carbon fiber, and discs as you note.

Do they then also claim that prior to Santana employing that
technology that everyone else did it wrong? Not that we would know of
any other company that does that sort of thing.

Change "Do" to "Did" and I believe the answer is yes.Â* Moving forward,
their ad copy largely seemed to ignore/erase their prior statements
about the inadequacy of the "technology X" in question.

To specifically address the issue of Santana and tandem disc brakes, see
https://santanatandem.com/brake-tech/

Whether you agree or disagree with that info, you'll note that the
discussion of brakes is quite detailed in terms of braking torque, heat
dissipation, temperature rise, effect of temperature on brake components
and on carbon forks, effect on wheel geometry, tire clearance, etc. It
goes far beyond "Discs are just better" and "There are no downsides"
that we tend to get here.

Those who disagree with Santana's points would do well to address those
points specifically. IOW, avoid ad hominem insults claiming Santana
designers are just old fuddy-duddies, like we also tend to get here.

Disclaimer: Our tandem is not a Santana, but I have friends who ride
those bikes and love them.


--
- Frank Krygowski