Better Braking?

On 2/1/2020 9:49 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 10:37 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 2:47:47 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
snip

Jay likes to fly with the best equipment. Anything wrong with that? I felt disk brakes to be dangerously strong in that you could unknowingly put them on FAR too hard and got over the top of the bike. So I'm not wild about them.

I usually buy mid-fi equipment, Ultegra and lower, including BR-RS785 discs that you got. Technically, that was a non-series disc brake that was bundled with 105 and Ultegra (IIRC, before the current Ultegra hydro group). It's my daily driver and a great brake for my purposes.

Like it or not, discs are taking over, at least in the PNW. I am amazed at the number of disc bikes on the road and in the racks at work. I wouldn't bother with them in Florida, but they are great in a wet climate for any all in one, year-round bike.

They're taking over here too, based on what I see for sale in the few
shops we have. The last shop I was in had discs outnumbering rim brakes.
But this is just proof that people buy what they're told to buy. We have
far less rain than the PNW; and more important, we have a far, far
smaller percentage of riders who will ride in the rain. (Most of our
club's rides get canceled if it's likely to rain.)

But shops are stocking up on disc brake bikes, and people (even long
time avid riders) can be heard saying "Oooh, I want a bike with disc
brakes."

I suspect if you ask them why, the answer will be "Because they're
better." Or maybe "... safer."

You suspect? Why not just ask them? The usual response around here is that they stop better, particularly in the rain, and that they don't eat rims and allow for large tires and fenders. The racers like them because of stopping power and because they eliminate the usual braking problems with carbon rims. I would not use carbon wheels with rim brakes unless the wheel has a aluminum brake track like the Dura-Ace wheels.

My rim brakes have eaten up my Dura-Ace C35 brake track, and I'm looking at an expensive replacement. I wish I had gone with the discs on my new Emonda. I'm going to see if my son can get me a super-duper S-Works disc Tarmac from the scratch and dent bin at work, although I really, really like the Emonda and don't need any more bikes. I suppose I should just buy another C35 rim if they still make them.

As an aside, my son works with a guy who is whole hog into the scratch and dent bin and has 34 -- count 'em -- 34 Specialized bikes. He has multiple bikes of the same model, varying only by component groups and wheels. Incroyable. He should have his own bike hoarder show. I find it hard to justify the bikes I own and that goes double for skis, some of which are mighty close to others. And now that I think of it, I have way too many over-lapping bike tools.

-- Jay Beattie.

Heresy, Jay! You can never have too many bike tools.

Mark J.

On Sat, 1 Feb 2020 11:57:20 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/1/2020 10:37 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 2:47:47 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
snip

Jay likes to fly with the best equipment. Anything wrong with that? I felt disk brakes to be dangerously strong in that you could unknowingly put them on FAR too hard and got over the top of the bike. So I'm not wild about them.

I usually buy mid-fi equipment, Ultegra and lower, including BR-RS785 discs that you got. Technically, that was a non-series disc brake that was bundled with 105 and Ultegra (IIRC, before the current Ultegra hydro group). It's my daily driver and a great brake for my purposes.

Like it or not, discs are taking over, at least in the PNW. I am amazed at the number of disc bikes on the road and in the racks at work. I wouldn't bother with them in Florida, but they are great in a wet climate for any all in one, year-round bike.

They're taking over here too, based on what I see for sale in the few
shops we have. The last shop I was in had discs outnumbering rim brakes.
But this is just proof that people buy what they're told to buy. We have
far less rain than the PNW; and more important, we have a far, far
smaller percentage of riders who will ride in the rain. (Most of our
club's rides get canceled if it's likely to rain.)

But shops are stocking up on disc brake bikes, and people (even long
time avid riders) can be heard saying "Oooh, I want a bike with disc
brakes."

I suspect if you ask them why, the answer will be "Because they're
better." Or maybe "... safer."

And I know if you ask them "Have you had trouble with your rim brakes?"
they'll say "Well, no..."

I've noticed that lately the bikes in the department stores here,
i.e., the very cheap, U,S. $100, 7 speed ones, are more and more
equipped with cable disc brakes. which leads me to believe that there
is a financial advantage to the maker for using them. At least I doubt
that the buyers of such brakes are experienced, knowledgeable, bike
gurus and are buying based largely on price.

Perhaps that might be an advertising point for the shops selling
expensive bikes... "You mean that you want disc brakes? Like those
Walmart bikes?
--
cheers,

John B.

wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 11:08:31 PM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 1 February 2020 16:34:06 UTC-5, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 6:19:05 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 3:06 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 4:56:24 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 11:47:53 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 12:31 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 8:47:13 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 10:21 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 12:48:29 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 31/01/2020 05:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Returning to the pivot spread: There was a time when some companies
sold plates to connect the front end of a (front) cantilever's pivot
screws, to prevent that motion. I don't remember such a thing being
sold for center pull brakes back when they were popular, but it
would probably be more useful on that type of brake.

These things?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bi...booster+plates

Yup.
http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g...serialNumber=2
The Spence Wolf Cuptertino Bike Shrine version that was popular
in the late '70s early '80s.

Huh! I hadn't seen those.

With Scott/Mathauser brake shoes/pads. All these kludges were
intended to produce braking as good as a Campy NR, begging the
question of why one didn't buy NR -- or even the Shimano equivalent.
Well, then as now, people bought the brakes that were attached to the
bike when they saw it on the showroom floor.

Most people are not connoisseurs. They're more affected by advertising
copy than by finely perceived differences in performance.

What advertising copy? If you were buying custom-modified Mafac
brakes from Spence Wolf's shop, you were a connoisseur -- albeit
one who marched to a different drummer. Spence was also responsible
for launching Phil Wood and one of my favorite bikes of the era,
Caylor. He then went with a lot of the PNW builders -- Merz,
Rodriguez, Erickson -- and Lighthouse bikes by Tim Neenan of Santa
Cruz who brought us the original Stumpjumper. Spence was kind of
the Gertrude Stein of bike shop owners. I don't know if he had
anything on the showroom floor that was an OTC bike.

These days, just to get advertising copy, you have to be a little bit of a
connoisseur and subscribe to Bicycling or VeloNews or some other
bicycle publication. The only way I know about bikes is because of
my son and friends who are in the business. It is much less common
to buy a bare frame these days and you are tied to a lot of OE
equipment -- often proprietary -- for better or mostly worse. A
lot of parts are also fit only for the showroom, like wheels. They
are just bike stands on mid-fi bikes and even somewhat high-end
bikes. Back in the day, a nice bike had nice wheels. You can spend
$4K on a bike that has disposable wheels.

"What advertising copy?" Sheesh! The advertising copy that got them to
look at the Trek, or Giant, or whatever bike they lusted after in the shop!

IOW, you missed my point entirely. First, most people did not go into
shops looking for customized Mafac brakes. Most people never heard of
Mafac brakes. Most people (assuming they wanted something fancier than a
Huffy) went into a Schwinn shop, and the sophisticated ones went into a
Raleigh shop. They looked at the in-store catalogs and saw "Powerful
centerpull brakes!" and thought "Gosh, those centerpull brakes sure are
powerful." A few of them even wandered in here and said "Centerpull
brakes are more powerful than sidepulls" and got reamed by Jobst. Remember?

By and large, people buy what they're told to buy. Today people are told
"disc brakes are SO much safer!" in part because manufacturers are
putting disc brakes on so many bikes. So people who never had a problem
with any caliper brake won't buy a bike without disc brakes.

But the industry survives on churning. Perhaps the next churn will be
direct mount brakes. Maybe _Buycycling_ reviews (ghost-written by
manufacturers?) will begin saying "Direct mounts stop just as well and
are lighter and more aerodynamic." Maybe articles will snark about noise
and short disc pad life and bent rotors. Maybe touring articles will
talk about being stranded in the Himalayas and having to re-bleed discs
using only yak spit. And manufacturer's catalogs will say "Sleek,
aerodynamic direct pull brakes!"

If that's the way it goes, people will wander into shops and say "You
mean _all_ your bikes have _discs_?? This is 2023!!!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

Jay likes to fly with the best equipment. Anything wrong with that? I
felt disk brakes to be dangerously strong in that you could
unknowingly put them on FAR too hard and got over the top of the
bike. So I'm not wild about them.

I think originally it was an attempt to improve braking for the pro's
but it sure as hell didn't and it had a lot of added drag and weight.
They seemed to have improved that with the 140 mm disks and the flat
mounts for the actuators but the only thing I believe them to be good
for is prolonging the life of the wheel rims.

Since the pro's get a new bike or 5 every year I don't know that it
matters how long the wheels last. They are bought new every year if
you don't have a wheel sponsor.

One of the things I didn't like is that you had to set the rim brakes
up with a slight forward bias so that when you applied the brakes the
bending of the mounting shaft would bring the brake shoes into direct flat contact.

With the direct mount brakes there isn't hardly any flex so you can
mount the brakes so they start with a full brake shoe contact on the
rims. No shudder and no excessive wear on the brake path on the rim
from that shuttering.

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to toe in direct mount brake pads.
Perhaps less than others, but there's still a bit of toe-in.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Never toed in any brake pads. Losen bolts squeeze brake lever and
tighten bolts. Done.

That's odd. A bit of toe in has been considered normal for decades.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO77mbB8w7I at 3:40, or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5cRzvw5r7M at 3:00, or dozens of other
sources.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I know but why should I toe in my brake pads and how long do you thing
the toe in will last?

Lou


It was recommended to reduce squeal on cantilever brakes. Doesn’t seem to
happen on my recent bikes so I don’t bother.

It was also standard procedure to toe-in brake shoes at all the bicycle
shops I ever worked at. Those brakes included side-pull ones as well as cantilever ones.

IIRC, it was also a standard procedure in just about every bicycling book
printed in the 1980s.

Perhaps as brake calipers got better and more rigid toe-in isn't needed as much?

Cheers


Maybe. I’d go with Andrew’s recommendation and if the brakes work well and
don’t squeal, forget about it and go ride.

Can't remember any calipers squeal on my road bikes that need toe in of
the brake pads. Started my 'career' with Shimano 600 brakes. The only
squealing brakes were V brakes on my first ATB. Those XT V brakes had
that stupid linkage design with all the pivots that developed play. That
squeal didn't get solved by toe in of the pads. The other V brakes that
squealed were Sram Ultimates after I replaced the suspension fork with a
rigid one. That squeal also wasn't solved with a toe in. It was solved by
choosing another brake pad compound.

Lou


The last brakes that I had that problem with were the dia compe cantis on
my ~90 Bianchi Volpe. Neither Tarmac has had this problem.

On Sat, 1 Feb 2020 23:17:32 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 11:08:31 PM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, 1 February 2020 16:34:06 UTC-5, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 6:19:05 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 3:06 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 4:56:24 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 5:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 11:47:53 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 12:31 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 8:47:13 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/31/2020 10:21 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 12:48:29 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 31/01/2020 05:35, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Returning to the pivot spread: There was a time when some companies
sold plates to connect the front end of a (front) cantilever's pivot
screws, to prevent that motion. I don't remember such a thing being
sold for center pull brakes back when they were popular, but it
would probably be more useful on that type of brake.

These things?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bi...booster+plates

Yup.
http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g...serialNumber=2
The Spence Wolf Cuptertino Bike Shrine version that was popular
in the late '70s early '80s.

Huh! I hadn't seen those.

With Scott/Mathauser brake shoes/pads. All these kludges were
intended to produce braking as good as a Campy NR, begging the
question of why one didn't buy NR -- or even the Shimano equivalent.
Well, then as now, people bought the brakes that were attached to the
bike when they saw it on the showroom floor.

Most people are not connoisseurs. They're more affected by advertising
copy than by finely perceived differences in performance.

What advertising copy? If you were buying custom-modified Mafac
brakes from Spence Wolf's shop, you were a connoisseur -- albeit
one who marched to a different drummer. Spence was also responsible
for launching Phil Wood and one of my favorite bikes of the era,
Caylor. He then went with a lot of the PNW builders -- Merz,
Rodriguez, Erickson -- and Lighthouse bikes by Tim Neenan of Santa
Cruz who brought us the original Stumpjumper. Spence was kind of
the Gertrude Stein of bike shop owners. I don't know if he had
anything on the showroom floor that was an OTC bike.

These days, just to get advertising copy, you have to be a little bit of a
connoisseur and subscribe to Bicycling or VeloNews or some other
bicycle publication. The only way I know about bikes is because of
my son and friends who are in the business. It is much less common
to buy a bare frame these days and you are tied to a lot of OE
equipment -- often proprietary -- for better or mostly worse. A
lot of parts are also fit only for the showroom, like wheels. They
are just bike stands on mid-fi bikes and even somewhat high-end
bikes. Back in the day, a nice bike had nice wheels. You can spend
$4K on a bike that has disposable wheels.

"What advertising copy?" Sheesh! The advertising copy that got them to
look at the Trek, or Giant, or whatever bike they lusted after in the shop!

IOW, you missed my point entirely. First, most people did not go into
shops looking for customized Mafac brakes. Most people never heard of
Mafac brakes. Most people (assuming they wanted something fancier than a
Huffy) went into a Schwinn shop, and the sophisticated ones went into a
Raleigh shop. They looked at the in-store catalogs and saw "Powerful
centerpull brakes!" and thought "Gosh, those centerpull brakes sure are
powerful." A few of them even wandered in here and said "Centerpull
brakes are more powerful than sidepulls" and got reamed by Jobst. Remember?

By and large, people buy what they're told to buy. Today people are told
"disc brakes are SO much safer!" in part because manufacturers are
putting disc brakes on so many bikes. So people who never had a problem
with any caliper brake won't buy a bike without disc brakes.

But the industry survives on churning. Perhaps the next churn will be
direct mount brakes. Maybe _Buycycling_ reviews (ghost-written by
manufacturers?) will begin saying "Direct mounts stop just as well and
are lighter and more aerodynamic." Maybe articles will snark about noise
and short disc pad life and bent rotors. Maybe touring articles will
talk about being stranded in the Himalayas and having to re-bleed discs
using only yak spit. And manufacturer's catalogs will say "Sleek,
aerodynamic direct pull brakes!"

If that's the way it goes, people will wander into shops and say "You
mean _all_ your bikes have _discs_?? This is 2023!!!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

Jay likes to fly with the best equipment. Anything wrong with that? I
felt disk brakes to be dangerously strong in that you could
unknowingly put them on FAR too hard and got over the top of the
bike. So I'm not wild about them.

I think originally it was an attempt to improve braking for the pro's
but it sure as hell didn't and it had a lot of added drag and weight.
They seemed to have improved that with the 140 mm disks and the flat
mounts for the actuators but the only thing I believe them to be good
for is prolonging the life of the wheel rims.

Since the pro's get a new bike or 5 every year I don't know that it
matters how long the wheels last. They are bought new every year if
you don't have a wheel sponsor.

One of the things I didn't like is that you had to set the rim brakes
up with a slight forward bias so that when you applied the brakes the
bending of the mounting shaft would bring the brake shoes into direct flat contact.

With the direct mount brakes there isn't hardly any flex so you can
mount the brakes so they start with a full brake shoe contact on the
rims. No shudder and no excessive wear on the brake path on the rim
from that shuttering.

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to toe in direct mount brake pads.
Perhaps less than others, but there's still a bit of toe-in.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Never toed in any brake pads. Losen bolts squeeze brake lever and
tighten bolts. Done.

That's odd. A bit of toe in has been considered normal for decades.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO77mbB8w7I at 3:40, or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5cRzvw5r7M at 3:00, or dozens of other
sources.


--
- Frank Krygowski


I know but why should I toe in my brake pads and how long do you thing
the toe in will last?

Lou


It was recommended to reduce squeal on cantilever brakes. Doesn’t seem to
happen on my recent bikes so I don’t bother.

It was also standard procedure to toe-in brake shoes at all the bicycle
shops I ever worked at. Those brakes included side-pull ones as well as cantilever ones.

IIRC, it was also a standard procedure in just about every bicycling book
printed in the 1980s.

Perhaps as brake calipers got better and more rigid toe-in isn't needed as much?

Cheers


Maybe. I’d go with Andrew’s recommendation and if the brakes work well and
don’t squeal, forget about it and go ride.

Can't remember any calipers squeal on my road bikes that need toe in of
the brake pads. Started my 'career' with Shimano 600 brakes. The only
squealing brakes were V brakes on my first ATB. Those XT V brakes had
that stupid linkage design with all the pivots that developed play. That
squeal didn't get solved by toe in of the pads. The other V brakes that
squealed were Sram Ultimates after I replaced the suspension fork with a
rigid one. That squeal also wasn't solved with a toe in. It was solved by
choosing another brake pad compound.

Lou


The last brakes that I had that problem with were the dia compe cantis on
my ~90 Bianchi Volpe. Neither Tarmac has had this problem.

I have, for years, used a Chinese brake pad that looks very much like
a "cool stop" and used to fuss about with toe in until one day I was
in a hurry and didn't bother and there was no squeal and have never
bothered since. As someone else mentioned, mount the pads, squeeze the
brakes against the rim and tighten the pad mounting screw and ride
away.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 1:47:15 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But shops are stocking up on disc brake bikes, and people (even long
time avid riders) can be heard saying "Oooh, I want a bike with disc
brakes."

I suspect if you ask them why, the answer will be "Because they're
better." Or maybe "... safer."

You suspect? Why not just ask them?

Largely because the club riders that recently bought new bikes are
almost all on a group vacation in Florida. I suppose I can ask them when
they get back.

The usual response around here is that they stop better, particularly in the rain, and that they don't eat rims and allow for large tires and fenders.

Right! Exactly what all the publicity says! "They stop better,
especially in the rain!" My point is, I can't recall anyone here ever
saying "Damn, I wish my [rim] brakes stopped better in the rain!"

Uh (raising hand), I have. That's one reason why I bought my first disc CX bike. I also wanted better fender clearance so I could run bigger tires. My prior commuter was a 1985 Cannondale Black Lightning that literally fell apart while I was riding home, so I needed a replacement and the disc CX bike fit the bill.


It's kind of like "Damn, I wish you couldn't see the headset on this
bike!" Or "Damn, I've got ten cogs in the back, but I'd kill for 11!"
Like so many other bike "innovations," the product came first. The
justification came later.

I don't get why you hate things that work better. I like all my gears. I like my discs, and I love STI. Threadless is way easier to work on, and quills don't get stuck.

I'm not an early adopter, but when things break or get stolen or wear out, I'll upgrade. There are some proprietary things I don't like, and I could have stayed with threaded BBs, but I'm fine with the press-in formats on my newer bikes. I don't know a single person who upgraded one cog at a time like your imaginary racer-consumers.

Time marches on! Go jump on a modern bike with discs and lots of gears and even electronic shifting. See what you think.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 22:54:50 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 1/31/2020 5:31 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jan 2020 15:11:15 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:
On Thursday, 30 January 2020 17:18:31 UTC-5, Tim McNamara wrote:

I've not tried the direct mount brakes, but they do remove the
straddle wire from the equation. That ought to improve efficiency,
if greater flexibility wasn't created in the brake arms.

I haven't used those but I did put old school Alivio V-brakes on my
dropbar MTB with Tecktro dropbar V-brake levers and I find the
braking FAR superior to what I had with my cantilever brakes. This
is even more so in snow or rain.

Makes sense for a few reasons. One, there is no straddle wire. Two,
the mechanical advantage is greater than almost all if not all
cantilevers (close to that of centerpulls). Three, the cable
approach to the brake is smooth with wide radius bends. Four, unlike
cantis the brake arms don't jut out from the frame quite so much.

I'm not sure what Sir meant by "braking FAR superior..." to cantilever
brakes - or for that matter, to other brakes. "Good braking" seems
nebulously defined.

And I'm not sure what Tim meant when characterizing the lack of a
straddle wire as a benefit. I don't see any great detriment in a
straddle wire, especially if it's set up correctly.

Straddle wires aren't usually set up correctly, from my observation.
This results in wasted lever motion taking up the slack befor eeffective
pressure is applied to the rim.

Different brake designs do have different mechanical advantages, but
people sometimes guess wrong about those MAs. I haven't run the numbers
for a long, long time (I once gave those as a project to a student
wanting some advanced credit for a course) but ISTR Jobst pointing out
that, contrary to myth, centerpulls don't have more MA than normal
sidepulls. (We can discuss.)

Well, ultimately the total mechanical advantage of the system is the
ratio of lever travel to pad travel. There's a practical limit to
minimum and maximum pad travel, probably averaging about 2 mm clearance
on my rim brakes. There are also limits on lever travel in terms of
average hand size dictating lever design (ignoring outliers with
unusually large or small hands, but of course with the latter we are
risking excluding women and children in particular from consideration).

Shimano upped the MA with dual pivot, but that did require truer
wheels. They upped it again with V-brakes, and had to compensate by
reducing the MA of the levers, making almost all levers incompatible,
as Tim said. (I sometimes think Shimano has a very large Department of
Incompatibility.)

I think V brakes were mainly invented to solve cable routing problems on
mountain bikes with suspension and reduce labor for bike manufacturers
and bike shops. 10 minutes saved on each bike times millions of bikes
ends up being real money.

I'll admit, though, that high MA in the brake itself may confer a couple
of secondary advantages. It means less tension in the cable, and less
tension means less friction loss. I think it was also Shimano that
started the practice of return springs in the lever as well as the
caliper. That allows a lighter caliper spring (since the caliper's not
dragging the cable) and a little less hand squeeze. But I think those
benefits are very small, unless a person has really cruddy cables.

Right, the reduced tension results in a lighter lever feel. Also, the
radius of cable housing bends also affects friction. Where the
mechanical advantage is (brake vs. lever) affect the feel of the system.
I suspect that the "I have power brakes" feeling of light lever action
is considered "better" braking by most riders- at least by me!

Another factor affecting braking force from a given lever squeeze is
the choice of shoe or pad material. Are there rim brake pads better
than the Salmon ones? If I had brake problems and didn't use Salmon
pads, that's the first thing I'd check.

They work great on aluminim and chromed steel rims (I have them on my
Raleigh Sports 3 speed, but that bike is getting aluminum rims this
winter to replace the rusty, poor-seating Westrick rims it has).

snip

I think one big reason for direct pull V-brakes taking over from other
cantilevers is that they don't require a cable stop on the frame. That
cable stop required some real kludging when mountain bikes switched to
suspension forks. Direct pulls solved that handily. Other than that, I
don't see significant differences in cable routing (or bends) between
the two. Actually, a flat-bar bike gets about 90 degree bend for a
normal canti, vs. about 180 degrees for a direct pull.

Everything is trade-offs.

That's certainly true. But aside from weirdnesses like Campy Delta or
Roller Cams, these non-hydraulic things are just lever systems.
Designers just dial in the desired MA, try to reduce flex and friction,
and keep things out of the way.

BTW, it's fun to browse through The Data Book and other historical
documents to see what's been done with brakes. There's been lots of
tinkering over the decades. And I'm sure that every design is better
than every other design - at least, in someone's eyes.

On 02/02/2020 01:18, John B. wrote:

snip

I have, for years, used a Chinese brake pad that looks very much
like a "cool stop" and used to fuss about with toe in until one day I
was in a hurry and didn't bother and there was no squeal and have
never bothered since. As someone else mentioned, mount the pads,
squeeze the brakes against the rim and tighten the pad mounting screw
and ride away. -- cheers,

Got a link for those?

On 01/02/2020 23:44, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 1 Feb 2020 11:57:20 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/1/2020 10:37 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 2:47:47 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich
wrote: snip

Jay likes to fly with the best equipment. Anything wrong with
that? I felt disk brakes to be dangerously strong in that you
could unknowingly put them on FAR too hard and got over the top
of the bike. So I'm not wild about them.

I usually buy mid-fi equipment, Ultegra and lower, including
BR-RS785 discs that you got. Technically, that was a non-series
disc brake that was bundled with 105 and Ultegra (IIRC, before
the current Ultegra hydro group). It's my daily driver and a
great brake for my purposes.

Like it or not, discs are taking over, at least in the PNW. I am
amazed at the number of disc bikes on the road and in the racks
at work. I wouldn't bother with them in Florida, but they are
great in a wet climate for any all in one, year-round bike.

They're taking over here too, based on what I see for sale in the
few shops we have. The last shop I was in had discs outnumbering
rim brakes. But this is just proof that people buy what they're
told to buy. We have far less rain than the PNW; and more
important, we have a far, far smaller percentage of riders who will
ride in the rain. (Most of our club's rides get canceled if it's
likely to rain.)

But shops are stocking up on disc brake bikes, and people (even
long time avid riders) can be heard saying "Oooh, I want a bike
with disc brakes."

I suspect if you ask them why, the answer will be "Because they're
better." Or maybe "... safer."

And I know if you ask them "Have you had trouble with your rim
brakes?" they'll say "Well, no..."

I've noticed that lately the bikes in the department stores here,
i.e., the very cheap, U,S. $100, 7 speed ones, are more and more
equipped with cable disc brakes. which leads me to believe that
there is a financial advantage to the maker for using them. At least
I doubt that the buyers of such brakes are experienced,
knowledgeable, bike gurus and are buying based largely on price.

Perhaps that might be an advertising point for the shops selling
expensive bikes... "You mean that you want disc brakes? Like those
Walmart bikes? -- cheers,

Those things are an abortion, offering all the drawbacks of cable with
none of the advantages of discs. If I had to go cable again, I'd stick
with direct pull rim brakes and Kool Stop Salmons.

On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 2:05:05 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 1:47:15 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But shops are stocking up on disc brake bikes, and people (even long
time avid riders) can be heard saying "Oooh, I want a bike with disc
brakes."

I suspect if you ask them why, the answer will be "Because they're
better." Or maybe "... safer."

You suspect? Why not just ask them?

Largely because the club riders that recently bought new bikes are
almost all on a group vacation in Florida. I suppose I can ask them when
they get back.

The usual response around here is that they stop better, particularly in the rain, and that they don't eat rims and allow for large tires and fenders.

Right! Exactly what all the publicity says! "They stop better,
especially in the rain!" My point is, I can't recall anyone here ever
saying "Damn, I wish my [rim] brakes stopped better in the rain!"

Uh (raising hand), I have. That's one reason why I bought my first disc CX bike. I also wanted better fender clearance so I could run bigger tires. My prior commuter was a 1985 Cannondale Black Lightning that literally fell apart while I was riding home, so I needed a replacement and the disc CX bike fit the bill.


It's kind of like "Damn, I wish you couldn't see the headset on this
bike!" Or "Damn, I've got ten cogs in the back, but I'd kill for 11!"
Like so many other bike "innovations," the product came first. The
justification came later.

I don't get why you hate things that work better.

Really Jay, don't you figured that out by now? Let me remind you. Frank thinks that all the new stuff make cycling unnecessary complicated, expensive and unreliable and it is all forced upon us by marketing (duh...) and he has the uncontrollable urge to warn/protect us from that. He knows this not from own experience but from his ignorant clubmembers who ended up with the wrong bike or one of his good friends that also ended up with something too complicated for them despite they all happen to have a degree in math, electronics, software or worse they are a poet or musician (WTF?).
If you mention that discbrakes are superior in the wet in combination with CF rims which we all know is a fact then the 'discussion' starts:
Frank:'why do you need CF rims?',
Jay: 'because high profile CF rims are more aero without the weight penalty',
Frank: 'does it make you faster?',
Jay: 'Yes',
Frank: 'do you have numbers',
Jay: 'it is measured several times in TOUR magazin, you can look them up',
Frank: 'the numbers are insignifant for most of us and not worth the trouble or cost',
Jay gives up......

If you start a conversation with Frank enthusiastic mentioning your new bike you get depressed within minutes.

Lou

On Sunday, 2 February 2020 05:12:06 UTC-5, wrote:
On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 2:05:05 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 1:47:15 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But shops are stocking up on disc brake bikes, and people (even long
time avid riders) can be heard saying "Oooh, I want a bike with disc
brakes."

I suspect if you ask them why, the answer will be "Because they're
better." Or maybe "... safer."

You suspect? Why not just ask them?

Largely because the club riders that recently bought new bikes are
almost all on a group vacation in Florida. I suppose I can ask them when
they get back.

The usual response around here is that they stop better, particularly in the rain, and that they don't eat rims and allow for large tires and fenders.

Right! Exactly what all the publicity says! "They stop better,
especially in the rain!" My point is, I can't recall anyone here ever
saying "Damn, I wish my [rim] brakes stopped better in the rain!"

Uh (raising hand), I have. That's one reason why I bought my first disc CX bike. I also wanted better fender clearance so I could run bigger tires.. My prior commuter was a 1985 Cannondale Black Lightning that literally fell apart while I was riding home, so I needed a replacement and the disc CX bike fit the bill.


It's kind of like "Damn, I wish you couldn't see the headset on this
bike!" Or "Damn, I've got ten cogs in the back, but I'd kill for 11!"
Like so many other bike "innovations," the product came first. The
justification came later.

I don't get why you hate things that work better.

Really Jay, don't you figured that out by now? Let me remind you. Frank thinks that all the new stuff make cycling unnecessary complicated, expensive and unreliable and it is all forced upon us by marketing (duh...) and he has the uncontrollable urge to warn/protect us from that. He knows this not from own experience but from his ignorant clubmembers who ended up with the wrong bike or one of his good friends that also ended up with something too complicated for them despite they all happen to have a degree in math, electronics, software or worse they are a poet or musician (WTF?).
If you mention that discbrakes are superior in the wet in combination with CF rims which we all know is a fact then the 'discussion' starts:
Frank:'why do you need CF rims?',
Jay: 'because high profile CF rims are more aero without the weight penalty',
Frank: 'does it make you faster?',
Jay: 'Yes',
Frank: 'do you have numbers',
Jay: 'it is measured several times in TOUR magazin, you can look them up',
Frank: 'the numbers are insignifant for most of us and not worth the trouble or cost',
Jay gives up......

If you start a conversation with Frank enthusiastic mentioning your new bike you get depressed within minutes.

Lou

+1000! EXCELLENT! Fantastic accurate summary.

Cheers