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Better Braking?



 
 
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  #71  
Old February 3rd 20, 10:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Better Braking?

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 6:53:45 AM UTC, Tosspot wrote:
On 02/02/2020 23:59, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 11:05:04 +0100, Tosspot
wrote:

On 02/02/2020 01:18, John B. wrote:

snip

I have, for years, used a Chinese brake pad that looks very much
like a "cool stop" and used to fuss about with toe in until one day I
was in a hurry and didn't bother and there was no squeal and have
never bothered since. As someone else mentioned, mount the pads,
squeeze the brakes against the rim and tighten the pad mounting screw
and ride away. -- cheers,

Got a link for those?


No I don't. I came across them in some shop or another and bought them
and they seemed to work very well so bought some spares and have
continued to use them.

Note: I don't remember the price but I do remember that I thought that
they were "expensive" so perhaps kool stops from Amazon at $12 a set
would be equal. Or depending on your brakes kool stop inserts, if they
would fit.


It was more that around my way the Salmons disappeared. For the Super
Galaxy I really like them and am needing replacements. They *do* seem
to work better than most. I'll have a Goggle meself.


Doesn't CRC (Chainreactioncycles near Belfast, biggest mail-order cycle-components firm in the world) deliver to wherever you are? They deliver free of postage to me in the Republic of Ireland. --AJ
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  #72  
Old February 3rd 20, 11:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 547
Default Better Braking?

On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.


And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!


But Frank! It's NEW! and everyone knows that NEW is BETTER.....
O.K., it might cost a tiny bit more but just think, everyone will be
looking at you with envy (Pssst, he's got one of them there new
things...) and think of the bragging rights... "See, I was riding
along on my $3,000 bike there with the new thing on it..."
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #73  
Old February 3rd 20, 11:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 547
Default Better Braking?

On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:53:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/2/2020 8:41 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

But regarding your gears: Do you love the 11th one so much that you were
pining for it when you had only ten back there? Somehow I doubt it. You
probably thought "Whoa, now I've got 10!" and it was marvelous until
they came out with 11.



Of course, the funny thing is that with the slow abolition of front
derailleurs from triples to compact doubles to 1x setups, the number of
gears on bikes has actually been (mostly) going down. Nobody is buying a 27
speed setup nowadays. I feel so unfashionable :-(


We're in this together! (Think how I feel with 15!)


At my LBS you can't even buy a 27 speed... they don't stock them any
more and 30 speed is ONS only.

--

Cheers,

John B.
  #74  
Old February 3rd 20, 11:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Better Braking?

I'll put in a word for the largest disc brakes it is possible to fit: Magura's Rim Hydraulic Brakes. They operate on a disc almost the size of the rim, 622mm, over 24 inches. They're service- and adjustment-free for life, very economical of pads, in my service anyway (8500km), and stop so well even in their basic form that, to ensure their progressively, I never even fitted the booster (a device for stiffening the fork to extract the last fraction of stopping power from the brakes). Even without the booster, in ten years I have not had an emergency stop they couldn't handle, wet or dry. They don't degrade much in the dry compared to the wet, I believe because of the extremely large area of the braking surface; by the time the rim comes under the pad, the spinning wheel has flung off most of the water.

Yes, I have more normal disc brakes on one of my bikes and hate it for its lack of control: it is an on-off device, and it chews pads and is noisy and -- well, let's just say I hate it for being crude. I also have Shimano's roller brakes in several versions on other bikes, and the newer ones are as strong as a disc in the dry, and stronger in the wet because they're totally enclosed; I like the old ones (serially under -50, the ultra-strong modern ones being -70 and above) better than the modern ones. The most modern roller brakes are great for emergency stops, grand at using your face on the road for extra friction after they throw you over the handlebars; they're not so great for social rides and in service with people who think their machines should serve them, not the other way round. Roller brake service is a constant requirement and a filthy one at that. The Magura hydraulic rim brakes leave them all for dead for controllability, longevity and having over 5000m between service intervals, service consisting of slipping in new brake blocks, a ten minute job front and rear even with the obstructive German lawyers' lips on the fork of my Kranich. The Magura rim hydraulics have no requirement for replacing the brake fluid, are adjustable from the handlebar with clean hands, and don't cost any more than relatively cheap disc and much less than fancy roadie brakes (Magura actually makes rim hydraulics with a different response curve for roadies but I don't know anything else about those).

Andre Jute
Connoisseur
  #75  
Old February 3rd 20, 03:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Default Better Braking?

On 1/30/2020 2:18 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:

snip

I've not tried the direct mount brakes, but they do remove the straddle
wire from the equation. That ought to improve efficiency, if greater
flexibility wasn't created in the brake arms.


My first thought was that at a time when even road bikes are moving to
discs, this is a little late. Then I clicked on the article and read
"Direct-mount brakes might be a great idea, but they’re coming at a time
when a lot of their claimed benefits will be trumped by disc brakes."

  #76  
Old February 3rd 20, 03:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
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Default Better Braking?

On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 5:04:48 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/2/2020 5:12 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 2:05:05 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 1:47:15 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/1/2020 12:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 8:57:36 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But shops are stocking up on disc brake bikes, and people (even long
time avid riders) can be heard saying "Oooh, I want a bike with disc
brakes."

I suspect if you ask them why, the answer will be "Because they're
better." Or maybe "... safer."

You suspect? Why not just ask them?

Largely because the club riders that recently bought new bikes are
almost all on a group vacation in Florida. I suppose I can ask them when
they get back.

The usual response around here is that they stop better, particularly in the rain, and that they don't eat rims and allow for large tires and fenders.

Right! Exactly what all the publicity says! "They stop better,
especially in the rain!" My point is, I can't recall anyone here ever
saying "Damn, I wish my [rim] brakes stopped better in the rain!"

Uh (raising hand), I have. That's one reason why I bought my first disc CX bike. I also wanted better fender clearance so I could run bigger tires. My prior commuter was a 1985 Cannondale Black Lightning that literally fell apart while I was riding home, so I needed a replacement and the disc CX bike fit the bill.


It's kind of like "Damn, I wish you couldn't see the headset on this
bike!" Or "Damn, I've got ten cogs in the back, but I'd kill for 11!"
Like so many other bike "innovations," the product came first. The
justification came later.

I don't get why you hate things that work better.


Really Jay, don't you figured that out by now? Let me remind you. Frank thinks that all the new stuff make cycling unnecessary complicated, expensive and unreliable and it is all forced upon us by marketing (duh...) and he has the uncontrollable urge to warn/protect us from that. He knows this not from own experience but from his ignorant clubmembers who ended up with the wrong bike or one of his good friends that also ended up with something too complicated for them despite they all happen to have a degree in math, electronics, software or worse they are a poet or musician (WTF?).
If you mention that discbrakes are superior in the wet in combination with CF rims which we all know is a fact then the 'discussion' starts:
Frank:'why do you need CF rims?',
Jay: 'because high profile CF rims are more aero without the weight penalty',
Frank: 'does it make you faster?',
Jay: 'Yes',
Frank: 'do you have numbers',
Jay: 'it is measured several times in TOUR magazin, you can look them up',
Frank: 'the numbers are insignifant for most of us and not worth the trouble or cost',
Jay gives up......

If you start a conversation with Frank enthusiastic mentioning your new bike you get depressed within minutes.


I could see a person getting depressed when they realized the extra 0.2
kph really didn't matter. IOW, that they'd spent all that money and gone
to all that trouble for a negligible benefit.

It would be like "Damn, my car now has an air dam and a new rear wing
and vortex generators and racing stripes, and I still have to drive the
speed limit! And worse, the chicks still don't want to date me!"

--
- Frank Krygowski


Frank, the chicks never wanted to date you. You were the "well, if everything else fails". Welcome to the club.
  #77  
Old February 3rd 20, 04:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
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Posts: 1,318
Default Better Braking?

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 6:22:07 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 1/30/2020 2:18 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:

snip

I've not tried the direct mount brakes, but they do remove the straddle
wire from the equation. That ought to improve efficiency, if greater
flexibility wasn't created in the brake arms.


My first thought was that at a time when even road bikes are moving to
discs, this is a little late. Then I clicked on the article and read
"Direct-mount brakes might be a great idea, but they’re coming at a time
when a lot of their claimed benefits will be trumped by disc brakes."


People that say that a disk brake is good are people that aren't engineers. Disk brakes are put in the weakest part of the bike with absolutely the worst possible leverage. They've even had to make much stronger axles to keep them from A. Failing and B. pulling out of dropouts. Racers can no longer get a quick wheel change and so they change entire bikes.

No one is going to convince me that making the leading edge of the bike wider, is somehow going to make it more aero.
  #78  
Old February 3rd 20, 04:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
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Posts: 1,318
Default Better Braking?

On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 8:13:20 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 5:15:10 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.


And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!



Pfff. My Trek is a 15-16lb bike. It's like riding an eBike compared to my commuter-pig. Can't you tell the difference between light and heavy bikes? Riding blindfolded, I can tell the difference between all my bikes within one or two pedal strokes -- just before crashing. I love my super-light, modern racing bike for fast road riding, hanging in with the other, sputtering old former racers.

-- Jay Beattie.


I have almost no balance so I couldn't even get a full pedal stroke blindfolded before hitting the ground.
  #79  
Old February 3rd 20, 04:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Better Braking?

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:17:00 AM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.


And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!


But Frank! It's NEW! and everyone knows that NEW is BETTER.....
O.K., it might cost a tiny bit more but just think, everyone will be
looking at you with envy (Pssst, he's got one of them there new
things...) and think of the bragging rights... "See, I was riding
along on my $3,000 bike there with the new thing on it..."


You have this weird fascination with price. Nobody I ride with buys anything as a status symbol -- and nobody pays OTC price. My Trek was pro-deal because I do work for the company, and most of my friends are in the industry.. And even if I did pay full price for my bike, who cares? Why not have a bike that is fun to ride?

-- Jay Beattie.

  #80  
Old February 3rd 20, 04:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
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Posts: 401
Default Better Braking?

On 2/3/2020 10:12 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 2:17:00 AM UTC-8, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 20:15:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/2/2020 7:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The OE direct mount brakes on my Trek stop well enough but have a slightly different feel than Ultegra dual pivot. Their reason for being is aerodynamics and light weight.

And everyone knows how critical aerodynamics are. Why, just look at how
Shimano AX absolutely transformed everyone's riding experience!

And light weight? Yep, pedaling your 180 pound bike+rider weight up a
hill is a completely different experience than pedaling your 179.9 pound
total bike+rider weight. That extra tenth of a pound absolutely sucks!
Thank God for 0.06% improvements!


But Frank! It's NEW! and everyone knows that NEW is BETTER.....
O.K., it might cost a tiny bit more but just think, everyone will be
looking at you with envy (Pssst, he's got one of them there new
things...) and think of the bragging rights... "See, I was riding
along on my $3,000 bike there with the new thing on it..."


You have this weird fascination with price. Nobody I ride with buys anything as a status symbol -- and nobody pays OTC price. My Trek was pro-deal because I do work for the company, and most of my friends are in the industry. And even if I did pay full price for my bike, who cares? Why not have a bike that is fun to ride?

-- Jay Beattie.


No Jay, you are being mind controlled by big marketing and you just
think it's fun to ride your bike.

 




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