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#111
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
"Jeremy Parker" typed
In other places, some Italian towns and cities particularly, in recent years a high level of usage has been built up through appropriate planning measures where there was not a high level of cycling before. Turning "appropriate planning measures" back from newspeak into plain English. I think David is saying that they made use of competing modes difficult to impossible. I don't think so. David and I were in Northern Italy a few weeks ago and were struck by the number of cyclists, (both leisure and utility) on the roads. The terrain was certainly not flat outside Meran(o) but the planners had made the environment *much* less hostile than we find locally. There were some dedicated cycle tracks. Cyclists were mostly on the road and the motorists were patient and tolerant. Our hosts' 6-year-old daughter was allowed to cycle to the playground (about 3/4 mile) by herself on the road. Her road skill weren't too clever. By contrast, David had real harrassment cycling legally (and skillfully) to Woolworth's yesterday. I continually go to meetings of cycling officers where the principle subject is to bemoan the inability of the bureaucracy to spend the money they have, although, to their great pride and astonishment, they did manage it this year. As for engineering, and expertise, I imagine London gets the pick of what is available (although they don't employ me, thank goodness) Aren't the results wonderful. The knowledge exists, and we should be using it. To do that requires project managers who can distinguish knowledge from nonsense. Too true! But also, I don't accept the equation between cycle tracks or paths and "leisure use", or indeed "beginning commuters". If they are well enough done they are "universal use", for leisure and commuting, and suitable for all cyclists of almost all levels of experience and fitness. That's probably a definition of "well done", and a fairly good one too. If a substantial group - any substantial group - of cyclists complain about a cycle facility then it is not well done. Some cycle facilities mange to harm even those cyclists who don't use them. That perhaps is the ultimate in badness. Yup! -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
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#112
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
On Thu, 27 May 2004 11:20:28 +0100 someone who may be Peter Clinch
wrote this:- Read again. Jeremy said places /in/ Wales and Scotland. There are places in England where cycling is less than places in Wales and Scotland. Jeremy's comparison is bogus. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000. |
#113
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
in message , Jeremy Parker
') wrote: "David Arditti" wrote [snip] So the British just happen to be the laziest nation in Europe, hence low cycling levels? I doubt it. I would have thought it was pretty generally accepted that the reason more people do not cycle is the environment. The interesting thing about Britain is how variable the amount of cycling is. It ranges from Cambridge, with a higher proportion of cyclists than Amsterdam [ref EU "Cycling: the way ahead for towns and cities" 1999] down to places in Wales and Scotland where its pretty neglegible. Strange places on the corners of maps where you can write 'here be monsters' and no-one will have been there to contradict you, you mean? I can't comment about Wales (although we seem to have plenty of Welsh posters here) but Scotland is a big place and the amount of cycling varies from place to place. Even here in Galloway it varies. In Kirkcudbright, there is a lot of casual utility cycling. In Castle Douglas, a town of very similar size, very little. But it really isn't an accident that Edinburgh has the UK's best known and most discussed LBS - there's a lot of cycling happens in Edinburgh. -- (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ ;; may contain traces of nuts, bolts or washers. |
#114
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
On Wed, 26 May 2004 19:42:47 +0100,
Jeremy Parker wrote: I suppose it depends on how you measure "effective" - you wouldn't want a circular definition. I would rate the top few effective bike networks as 1. Stevenage 2. Harlow 3. Milton Keynes 4. Peterborough It is interesting to see you put Peterborough in that list. When I was cycling to work I never used the cycle paths. Not that they are all bad - some are pretty good, but the good ones went bugger all near where I wanted to go. Peterborough has put a lot of work into leisure cycling - The Green Wheel has some very pleasant bits, but really needs to look at most of the on-road cycle lanes and shared use cycle paths. -- Andy Leighton = "The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials" - Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_ |
#115
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
On Thu, 27 May 2004 12:35:09 GMT someone who may be Simon Brooke
wrote this:- But it really isn't an accident that Edinburgh has the UK's best known and most discussed LBS - there's a lot of cycling happens in Edinburgh. It is also no accident that Edinburgh has a local cycling pressure group that is second to none. I congratulate all those who give up their time to get all the work done. The work included the first physical work on what is now the North Edinburgh path network, work which was eventually taken over by the Council. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000. |
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
I don't think so. David and I were in Northern Italy a few weeks ago and were struck by the number of cyclists, (both leisure and utility) on the roads. The terrain was certainly not flat outside Meran(o) but the planners had made the environment *much* less hostile than we find locally. There were some dedicated cycle tracks. Cyclists were mostly on the road and the motorists were patient and tolerant. Our hosts' 6-year-old daughter was allowed to cycle to the playground (about 3/4 mile) by herself on the road. Her road skill weren't too clever. Do you think the kudos associated with cycle sports in Italy rubs off on leisure and utility cycling. Does an italian middle age fat bloke popping down the shops on his bianchi have a little bit of a Fausto Coppi fantasy, the way a british bloke going to B&Q in his mondaeo might have a Colin Macrae moment? -- Andy Morris AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ |
#117
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
"Chris Malcolm" wrote in message
... "AndyMorris" writes: Helen Deborah Vecht wrote: David and I were in Northern Italy a few weeks ago and were struck by the number of cyclists, (both leisure and utility) on the roads. The terrain was certainly not flat outside Meran(o) but the planners had made the environment *much* less hostile than we find locally. There were some dedicated cycle tracks. Cyclists were mostly on the road and the motorists were patient and tolerant. Our hosts' 6-year-old daughter was allowed to cycle to the playground (about 3/4 mile) by herself on the road. Her road skill weren't too clever. Do you think the kudos associated with cycle sports in Italy rubs off on leisure and utility cycling. Does an italian middle age fat bloke popping down the shops on his bianchi have a little bit of a Fausto Coppi fantasy, the way a british bloke going to B&Q in his mondaeo might have a Colin Macrae moment? Is that similar to the old "Stirling Moss" moment, as when the police pulled you up and asked "Who you do you think you are then, Stirling Moss?" Stirling _who_? |
#118
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
"Chris Malcolm" wrote in message ... "AndyMorris" writes: Helen Deborah Vecht wrote: David and I were in Northern Italy a few weeks ago and were struck by the number of cyclists, (both leisure and utility) on the roads. The terrain was certainly not flat outside Meran(o) but the planners had made the environment *much* less hostile than we find locally. There were some dedicated cycle tracks. Cyclists were mostly on the road and the motorists were patient and tolerant. Our hosts' 6-year-old daughter was allowed to cycle to the playground (about 3/4 mile) by herself on the road. Her road skill weren't too clever. Do you think the kudos associated with cycle sports in Italy rubs off on leisure and utility cycling. Does an italian middle age fat bloke popping down the shops on his bianchi have a little bit of a Fausto Coppi fantasy, the way a british bloke going to B&Q in his mondaeo might have a Colin Macrae moment? Is that similar to the old "Stirling Moss" moment, as when the police pulled you up and asked "Who you do you think you are then, Stirling Moss?" Apparently that once happened to Stirling Moss :-) -- Tumbleweed Remove my socks for email address |
#119
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
Tumbleweed wrote:
"Chris Malcolm" wrote in message Is that similar to the old "Stirling Moss" moment, as when the police pulled you up and asked "Who you do you think you are then, Stirling Moss?" Apparently that once happened to Stirling Moss :-) Never! |
#120
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The _Observer_ on "deadly" bike lanes
Simonb wrote:
Is that similar to the old "Stirling Moss" moment, as when the police pulled you up and asked "Who you do you think you are then, Stirling Moss?" Apparently that once happened to Stirling Moss :-) I also recall a report whereby a young whippersnapper, doing something excessive on a motorway, was pulled over. He was asked, "Who do you think you are, Nigel Mansell?" Which was indeed his name, although he wasn't the NM of bushy moustache fame. |
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