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#21
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Racing cyclist that killed a pedestrian at a crossing
Mrcheerful wrote:
Zapp Brannigan wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... Tris wrote: In post "Mrcheerful" wrote: Tris wrote: In post "Mrcheerful" wrote: definition of kill: Cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing). The cyclist caused the death of the pedestrian, therefore he killed him. ... but he wasn't held responsible for the death and, therefore, absolved of all blame. There, that's the whole story, not just the bit you wish to spin. "Racing cyclist that killed a pedestrian at a crossing" Was he racing? Check Was he a cyclist? Check Did he cause the death of someone? Check Was that someone a pedestrian? Check Did it occur at a crossing? Check Please explain which bit of the above I applied spin to? And repeat myself yet again? I guess I'll have to settle for you, at least, no longer accusing the cyclist for being responsible for the pedestrians death. Maybe before calling a cyclist a "killer" you should be mindful of the difference between a cyclist involved in a death for which they were responsible and one for which they were not - but then again, maybe you won't. It's all about being fair really, but anyway, que sera, sera. the cyclist is a killer, he killed someone, that fact is not in dispute. It is being plainly disputed. You are wrong. How? The cyclist caused the death of another human, the cyclist killed him, how is that in dispute by any rational person? A killer is not the same as a murderer. If someone kills someone then they can rightly be called a killer. |
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#22
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Racing cyclist that killed a pedestrian at a crossing
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
"Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... Zapp Brannigan wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... Zapp Brannigan wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... the cyclist travelling too fast for the conditions would have caused his own death, whether he hit a person or a bridge support. Interesting position. So if a pedestrian wanders onto the Hockenheim circuit during a race and is struck by Michael Shumacher's car, that accident is the driver's fault for going too fast? Are we talking about blame? or killing someone? The subject is a racing cyclist on the public highway. The cyclist killed a pedestrian at a crossing point while racing. Which bit of that is hard to understand? The public highways had been closed by lawful order, so that the race could be safely staged. Like they do on the Isle of Man for the TT races. So let's try again, and see if the penny drops: Conor Cummins is riding his 1,000cc ZX10 racing motorcycle at 130mph along the narrow Manx roads approaching Greeba Bridge, when a pedestrian steps out in directly front of him. The pedestrian dies as a result of the collision. You are saying that this would be the rider's fault, because he was travelling too fast for the conditions? the rider would bear the responsibility for the death, yes. Who else is directly involved? I would say the pedestrian is solely responsible, if he has defied a proper arrangement of safety barriers, warning & marshals. If the arrangements were not properly made and he wandered onto the closed-for-racing road without realising the hazard, I would say the organisers are responsible. I wouldn't blame the rider/driver at all, in these circumstances. yet the rider would have killed the pedestrian. |
#23
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Racing cyclist that killed a pedestrian at a crossing
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:06:48 +0100, "Zapp Brannigan"
wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... Zapp Brannigan wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... Zapp Brannigan wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... the cyclist travelling too fast for the conditions would have caused his own death, whether he hit a person or a bridge support. Interesting position. So if a pedestrian wanders onto the Hockenheim circuit during a race and is struck by Michael Shumacher's car, that accident is the driver's fault for going too fast? Are we talking about blame? or killing someone? The subject is a racing cyclist on the public highway. The cyclist killed a pedestrian at a crossing point while racing. Which bit of that is hard to understand? The public highways had been closed by lawful order, so that the race could be safely staged. Like they do on the Isle of Man for the TT races. So let's try again, and see if the penny drops: Conor Cummins is riding his 1,000cc ZX10 racing motorcycle at 130mph along the narrow Manx roads approaching Greeba Bridge, when a pedestrian steps out in directly front of him. The pedestrian dies as a result of the collision. You are saying that this would be the rider's fault, because he was travelling too fast for the conditions? the rider would bear the responsibility for the death, yes. Who else is directly involved? I would say the pedestrian is solely responsible, if he has defied a proper arrangement of safety barriers, warning & marshals. If the arrangements were not properly made and he wandered onto the closed-for-racing road without realising the hazard, I would say the organisers are responsible. I wouldn't blame the rider/driver at all, in these circumstances. Certainly in a closed road event there is a decent expectation that you don't have to watch out for pedestrians or other traffic, that is kind of implied by the definition of closed road. Guy -- Guy Chapman, http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk The usenet price promise: all opinions are guaranteed to be worth at least what you paid for them. |
#24
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Racing cyclist that killed a pedestrian at a crossing
On Mar 31, 11:02*pm, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote: On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:06:48 +0100, "Zapp Brannigan" wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... Zapp Brannigan wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... Zapp Brannigan wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... the cyclist travelling too fast for the conditions would have caused his own death, whether he hit a person or a bridge support. Interesting position. *So if a pedestrian wanders onto the Hockenheim circuit during a race and is struck by Michael Shumacher's car, that accident is the driver's fault for going too fast? Are we talking about blame? or killing someone? The subject is a racing cyclist on the public highway. *The cyclist killed a pedestrian at a crossing point while racing. *Which bit of that is hard to understand? The public highways had been closed by lawful order, so that the race could be safely staged. * Like they do on the Isle of Man for the TT races. * *So let's try again, and see if the penny drops: Conor Cummins is riding his 1,000cc ZX10 racing motorcycle at 130mph along the narrow Manx roads approaching Greeba Bridge, when a pedestrian steps out in directly front of him. *The pedestrian dies as a result of the collision. You are saying that this would be the rider's fault, because he was travelling too fast for the conditions? the rider would bear the responsibility for the death, yes. *Who else is directly involved? I would say the pedestrian is solely responsible, if he has defied a proper arrangement of safety barriers, warning & marshals. * If the arrangements were not properly made and he wandered onto the closed-for-racing road without realising the hazard, I would say the organisers are responsible.. *I wouldn't blame the rider/driver at all, in these circumstances. Certainly in a closed road event there is a decent expectation that you don't have to watch out for pedestrians or other traffic, that is kind of implied by the definition of closed road. This was not a BCF sanctioned event. The organisers do not have the experience or backing of an organisation of racing cyclists. They're playing at it and this should not reflect on organised cycle racing. |
#25
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Racing cyclist that killed a pedestrian at a crossing
On Mar 31, 8:33*pm, "Mrcheerful" wrote:
Zapp Brannigan wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... Tris wrote: In post "Mrcheerful" wrote: Tris wrote: In post "Mrcheerful" wrote: definition of kill: Cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing). The cyclist caused the death of the pedestrian, therefore he killed him. ... but he wasn't held responsible for the death and, therefore, absolved of all blame. There, that's the whole story, not just the bit you wish to spin. "Racing cyclist that killed a pedestrian at a crossing" Was he racing? *Check Was he a cyclist? *Check Did he cause the death of someone? *Check Was that someone a pedestrian? *Check Did it occur at a crossing? *Check Please explain which bit of the above I applied spin to? And repeat myself yet again? I guess I'll have to settle for you, at least, no longer accusing the cyclist for being responsible for the pedestrians death. Maybe before calling a cyclist a "killer" you should be mindful of the difference between a cyclist involved in a death for which they were responsible and one for which they were not - but then again, maybe you won't. It's all about being fair really, but anyway, que sera, sera. the cyclist is a killer, he killed someone, that fact is not in dispute. It is being plainly disputed. * You are wrong. How? *The cyclist No, triathlete! caused the death of another human, the cyclist killed him, how is that in dispute by any rational person? |
#26
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Racing cyclist that killed a pedestrian at a crossing
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:06:48 +0100, "Zapp Brannigan" wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... Zapp Brannigan wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... Zapp Brannigan wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... the cyclist travelling too fast for the conditions would have caused his own death, whether he hit a person or a bridge support. Interesting position. So if a pedestrian wanders onto the Hockenheim circuit during a race and is struck by Michael Shumacher's car, that accident is the driver's fault for going too fast? Are we talking about blame? or killing someone? The subject is a racing cyclist on the public highway. The cyclist killed a pedestrian at a crossing point while racing. Which bit of that is hard to understand? The public highways had been closed by lawful order, so that the race could be safely staged. Like they do on the Isle of Man for the TT races. So let's try again, and see if the penny drops: Conor Cummins is riding his 1,000cc ZX10 racing motorcycle at 130mph along the narrow Manx roads approaching Greeba Bridge, when a pedestrian steps out in directly front of him. The pedestrian dies as a result of the collision. You are saying that this would be the rider's fault, because he was travelling too fast for the conditions? the rider would bear the responsibility for the death, yes. Who else is directly involved? I would say the pedestrian is solely responsible, if he has defied a proper arrangement of safety barriers, warning & marshals. If the arrangements were not properly made and he wandered onto the closed-for-racing road without realising the hazard, I would say the organisers are responsible. I wouldn't blame the rider/driver at all, in these circumstances. Certainly in a closed road event there is a decent expectation that you don't have to watch out for pedestrians or other traffic, that is kind of implied by the definition of closed road. Guy An expectation, but the person on the vehicle/cycle would still be the one that kills the pedestrian. the incident (with the cyclist) was not on closed roads (or there would not have been a 'managed' pedestrian crossing.) |
#27
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Racing cyclist that killed a pedestrian at a crossing
On Mar 31, 11:13*pm, "Mrcheerful" wrote:
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote: On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:06:48 +0100, "Zapp Brannigan" wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... Zapp Brannigan wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... Zapp Brannigan wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... the cyclist travelling too fast for the conditions would have caused his own death, whether he hit a person or a bridge support. Interesting position. *So if a pedestrian wanders onto the Hockenheim circuit during a race and is struck by Michael Shumacher's car, that accident is the driver's fault for going too fast? Are we talking about blame? or killing someone? The subject is a racing cyclist on the public highway. *The cyclist killed a pedestrian at a crossing point while racing. Which bit of that is hard to understand? The public highways had been closed by lawful order, so that the race could be safely staged. * Like they do on the Isle of Man for the TT races. * *So let's try again, and see if the penny drops: Conor Cummins is riding his 1,000cc ZX10 racing motorcycle at 130mph along the narrow Manx roads approaching Greeba Bridge, when a pedestrian steps out in directly front of him. *The pedestrian dies as a result of the collision. You are saying that this would be the rider's fault, because he was travelling too fast for the conditions? the rider would bear the responsibility for the death, yes. *Who else is directly involved? I would say the pedestrian is solely responsible, if he has defied a proper arrangement of safety barriers, warning & marshals. * If the arrangements were not properly made and he wandered onto the closed-for-racing road without realising the hazard, I would say the organisers are responsible. *I wouldn't blame the rider/driver at all, in these circumstances. Certainly in a closed road event there is a decent expectation that you don't have to watch out for pedestrians or other traffic, that is kind of implied by the definition of closed road. Guy An expectation, but the person on the vehicle/cycle would still be the one that kills the pedestrian. You would have to show greater intent on the part of the competitor. The old man's intent is unknown, he may be more to blame than anyone. Is there any reason he should have thought there was no traffic on the road? Would he have done the same in front of a taxi? Was he in pain or on some sort of medication which would deteriorate his ability to make a good assesment of risk? The man could have been suicidal and had a grudge against cyclists because his wife ran away with one 40years ago. Is that what happened to you, MrCheerless? the incident (with the cyclist) *was not on closed roads (or there would not have been a 'managed' pedestrian crossing.) Yes, a managed crossing is the norm when roads are closed for races. |
#28
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Racing cyclist that killed a pedestrian at a crossing
"Phil W Lee" wrote in message ... "Zapp Brannigan" considered Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:06:48 +0100 the perfect time to write: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... Zapp Brannigan wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... Zapp Brannigan wrote: "Mrcheerful" wrote in message ... the cyclist travelling too fast for the conditions would have caused his own death, whether he hit a person or a bridge support. Interesting position. So if a pedestrian wanders onto the Hockenheim circuit during a race and is struck by Michael Shumacher's car, that accident is the driver's fault for going too fast? Are we talking about blame? or killing someone? The subject is a racing cyclist on the public highway. The cyclist killed a pedestrian at a crossing point while racing. Which bit of that is hard to understand? The public highways had been closed by lawful order, so that the race could be safely staged. Like they do on the Isle of Man for the TT races. So let's try again, and see if the penny drops: Conor Cummins is riding his 1,000cc ZX10 racing motorcycle at 130mph along the narrow Manx roads approaching Greeba Bridge, when a pedestrian steps out in directly front of him. The pedestrian dies as a result of the collision. You are saying that this would be the rider's fault, because he was travelling too fast for the conditions? the rider would bear the responsibility for the death, yes. Who else is directly involved? I would say the pedestrian is solely responsible, if he has defied a proper arrangement of safety barriers, warning & marshals. If the arrangements were not properly made and he wandered onto the closed-for-racing road without realising the hazard, I would say the organisers are responsible. I wouldn't blame the rider/driver at all, in these circumstances. The rider may even have a claim against the estate of the trespasser for any loss or injury they may suffer in such a collision. quite possinly, but the rider would have killed the pedestrian. (which is something that seems hard to understand for some people) |
#29
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Racing cyclist that killed a pedestrian at a crossing
On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 21:47:42 +0100, Mrcheerful wrote:
Organisers of the London Triathlon face a huge fine after a pensioner was killed by a cyclist on the racecourse. Wow! For the first time in living memory, one of the baying pack have found a case where a pedestrian was actually killed by a cyclist racing on the roads. In their glee, they have to overlook the fact that the roads in question were closed, of course. I guess the outcome of this is that we can look forward to F1 races such as Monaco. Montreal, Hockenheim etc being conducted at speeds such that the drivers can stop in the distance they can see is clear. regards, Ian SMith -- |\ /| no .sig |o o| |/ \| |
#30
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Racing cyclist that killed a pedestrian at a crossing
On Sun, 1 Apr 2012 08:25:12 +0000 (UTC), Ian Smith
wrote: snip I guess the outcome of this is that we can look forward to F1 races such as Monaco. Montreal, Hockenheim etc being conducted at speeds such that the drivers can stop in the distance they can see is clear. You are as ever quite correct: Monaco. Montreal, Hockenheim etc are quite comparable to a pack of ****wits on pushbikes. And look at the similar public interest. |
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