State your opinion on COVID-19

On 5/22/2020 9:15 AM, wrote:
On Friday, May 22, 2020 at 6:35:26 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/21/2020 11:04 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 21 May 2020 23:36:12 UTC-4, James wrote:
On 19/5/20 11:51 am, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 18 May 2020 21:42:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/18/2020 6:38 PM, James wrote:

I bought a gravel bike so that I have more variety of routes and places
to explore. I often ride a mix of bitumen and gravel, and the MTB is
just a slug on bitumen. Furthermore my gravel bike has 3 water bottles
in the main triangle, which is really handy around here in hot weather.
It's also good for towing my shopping trailer.

I certainly agree about mountain bikes being "slugs" on paved roads.

If you ride nobbies.

I have a friend who is not an avid cyclist, although he did some 1000
mile camping tours when much younger. He likes riding under a full moon,
and usually invites me to ride with him. I use one of my road bikes, he
uses his mountain bike. In fact, he uses it everywhere, except off road.
He has no interest in riding on dirt.

At one time, he mentioned that he still had his 1970s Trek touring bike,
but it needed lots of work. I said that bike would be much more
appropriate for his riding and offered to overhaul it for him. And I put
many hours into a complete overhaul. (I may have mentioned having to
disassemble the Campy touring rear derailleur to get it working.)

He came to get the completed bike, test rode it once around my block and
said he didn't like it. It didn't feel stable enough for him. AFAIK he's
never ridden it since.

Did you set it up for racing or touring?

Most of the difference is in the steering. The angle of the head tube
and trail is different on a MTB.

I find riding a MTB no hands is challenging, and easy with on a road or
gravel bike.

YMMV

MTBs typically also have suspension forks and almost flat handlebars.
The former adds a heap of unnecessary weight and the latter encourages a
sit up and beg riding position, with little opportunity for change.

--
JS

I have a number of old rigid frame, rigid front fork MTBs that I've converted to dropbar dirt/gravel roads and/or touring bikes. I like the 26" MTB size wheels because tires are so varied in possible choices. I can tires from 50+mm to 25.4mm online if not in the bicycle shop. Anything from slicks to aggressive knobs are available. In my honest opinion that's about the most versatile wheel size there is. Others, well, YMMV

Cheers


You are not alone in that analysis:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/3rmt.html


Tire availability aside there was a reason that MTB's went to 29" (700c). 26" tires stick in places that the larger diameter simply rolls over.


I didn't understand '29' bikes (700x54) at all until we did
a custom Gunnar for a Special Forces operator some 16 years
ago. A muscular six and a half feet of rider looks all
wrong on anything 26-inch. 700x54 is very proportional for
big guys.

That said, our culture is plagued by trendiness. I roll my
eyes when short women come in with 13" frame '29' bikes,
seat all the way down and handlebars way out there someplace
beyond her hands. "It's the latest thing" offsets reason all
too often.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, May 22, 2020 at 4:12:31 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 11:19:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 22, 2020 at 6:04:15 AM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 21 May 2020 23:36:12 UTC-4, James wrote:
On 19/5/20 11:51 am, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 18 May 2020 21:42:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/18/2020 6:38 PM, James wrote:

I bought a gravel bike so that I have more variety of routes and places
to explore.Â* I often ride a mix of bitumen and gravel, and the MTB is
just a slug on bitumen.Â* Furthermore my gravel bike has 3 water bottles
in the main triangle, which is really handy around here in hot weather.
It's also good for towing my shopping trailer.

I certainly agree about mountain bikes being "slugs" on paved roads.

If you ride nobbies.

I have a friend who is not an avid cyclist, although he did some 1000
mile camping tours when much younger. He likes riding under a full moon,
and usually invites me to ride with him. I use one of my road bikes, he
uses his mountain bike. In fact, he uses it everywhere, except off road.
He has no interest in riding on dirt.

At one time, he mentioned that he still had his 1970s Trek touring bike,
but it needed lots of work. I said that bike would be much more
appropriate for his riding and offered to overhaul it for him. And I put
many hours into a complete overhaul. (I may have mentioned having to
disassemble the Campy touring rear derailleur to get it working.)

He came to get the completed bike, test rode it once around my block and
said he didn't like it. It didn't feel stable enough for him. AFAIK he's
never ridden it since.

Did you set it up for racing or touring?

Most of the difference is in the steering. The angle of the head tube
and trail is different on a MTB.

I find riding a MTB no hands is challenging, and easy with on a road or
gravel bike.

YMMV

MTBs typically also have suspension forks and almost flat handlebars.
The former adds a heap of unnecessary weight and the latter encourages a
sit up and beg riding position, with little opportunity for change.

--
JS

I have a number of old rigid frame, rigid front fork MTBs that I've converted to dropbar dirt/gravel roads and/or touring bikes. I like the 26" MTB size wheels because tires are so varied in possible choices. I can tires from 50+mm to 25.4mm online if not in the bicycle shop. Anything from slicks to aggressive knobs are available. In my honest opinion that's about the most versatile wheel size there is. Others, well, YMMV

Cheers

Before gravel bikes were 'invented'/became popular the crossbike was the way to go for off road riding if you didn't want to ride a sluggish ATB. Because of the UCI limitation for cross bikes the choice of tyres was very limited. Now with the gravel bikes the choice is huge.

Lou

I'm not quite sure what you mean by limited. The cross bikes I've had all would take 32 mm tires and if you use any larger you end up with the same sluggishness as an MTB.

That is the limitation I am talking about. The sluggishness of a MTB comes from all the suspension **** not from the tires. Off road riding of course.

I have a local course with short uphill stretches of perhaps 100 meters of 24% or more loose rock. NO cross bike will go up those but I could get 7/8ths of the way to the top before carrying them the rest of the way. I did manage to go all the way to the top with a full suspension bike but they are very heavy on the front end and you don't have to worry about them lifting a front wheel.

The shorter 20% I would ride over. The downhill sections are 30% and more in sections and 32 mm tires are too much traction. That is dangerous to try and do more than try to slow yourself for the next hairpin turn. The idea is to wait for a flatter section and cram on the brakes to slow you for the next steep section. One particularly nasty area was only 40 meters long but covered entirely with cross hatched rain ruts and 40%. The idea was to hit that fast enough that you got through it and onto the flat before you lost control.

With a full suspension you just rode through it at any speed you wanted to go.

But climbing I would run away from MTB's. Especially full suspension models which are so heavy. I'm told that the very top end are no heavier than a cross bike but I would have to see them to believe it.

I see people with 36 or even 42 mm tires on cross bikes but I'm sure that they don't ride any real off-road.

That is what I have on my crossbike 42 mm rear, 35 in front to prevent snake bites goining over roots. I do ride real off road. All the trails my friends need a ATB for I manage with my cross bike running 46/36 chainrings and 12/32 cassette. They only have to get out of my way because I have to maintain a certain momentum. They can't with their ridiculous small gears and the fact they have to be seated because of the suspension. I sold both my ATB's.

Lou

On 5/22/2020 11:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:

"It's the latest
thing" offsets reason all too often.

+1


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, May 22, 2020 at 8:34:22 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/22/2020 9:15 AM, wrote:
On Friday, May 22, 2020 at 6:35:26 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/21/2020 11:04 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 21 May 2020 23:36:12 UTC-4, James wrote:
On 19/5/20 11:51 am, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 18 May 2020 21:42:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/18/2020 6:38 PM, James wrote:

I bought a gravel bike so that I have more variety of routes and places
to explore. I often ride a mix of bitumen and gravel, and the MTB is
just a slug on bitumen. Furthermore my gravel bike has 3 water bottles
in the main triangle, which is really handy around here in hot weather.
It's also good for towing my shopping trailer.

I certainly agree about mountain bikes being "slugs" on paved roads.

If you ride nobbies.

I have a friend who is not an avid cyclist, although he did some 1000
mile camping tours when much younger. He likes riding under a full moon,
and usually invites me to ride with him. I use one of my road bikes, he
uses his mountain bike. In fact, he uses it everywhere, except off road.
He has no interest in riding on dirt.

At one time, he mentioned that he still had his 1970s Trek touring bike,
but it needed lots of work. I said that bike would be much more
appropriate for his riding and offered to overhaul it for him. And I put
many hours into a complete overhaul. (I may have mentioned having to
disassemble the Campy touring rear derailleur to get it working.)

He came to get the completed bike, test rode it once around my block and
said he didn't like it. It didn't feel stable enough for him. AFAIK he's
never ridden it since.

Did you set it up for racing or touring?

Most of the difference is in the steering. The angle of the head tube
and trail is different on a MTB.

I find riding a MTB no hands is challenging, and easy with on a road or
gravel bike.

YMMV

MTBs typically also have suspension forks and almost flat handlebars..
The former adds a heap of unnecessary weight and the latter encourages a
sit up and beg riding position, with little opportunity for change.

--
JS

I have a number of old rigid frame, rigid front fork MTBs that I've converted to dropbar dirt/gravel roads and/or touring bikes. I like the 26" MTB size wheels because tires are so varied in possible choices. I can tires from 50+mm to 25.4mm online if not in the bicycle shop. Anything from slicks to aggressive knobs are available. In my honest opinion that's about the most versatile wheel size there is. Others, well, YMMV

Cheers


You are not alone in that analysis:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/3rmt.html


Tire availability aside there was a reason that MTB's went to 29" (700c). 26" tires stick in places that the larger diameter simply rolls over.


I didn't understand '29' bikes (700x54) at all until we did
a custom Gunnar for a Special Forces operator some 16 years
ago. A muscular six and a half feet of rider looks all
wrong on anything 26-inch. 700x54 is very proportional for
big guys.

That said, our culture is plagued by trendiness. I roll my
eyes when short women come in with 13" frame '29' bikes,
seat all the way down and handlebars way out there someplace
beyond her hands. "It's the latest thing" offsets reason all
too often.

Well, trends ae a problem but not for riders that know what they're doing. Isn't the 27.5 really a 250b size? That is for more effective sizing for smaller people.

On Friday, May 22, 2020 at 8:35:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 22, 2020 at 4:12:31 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 11:19:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 22, 2020 at 6:04:15 AM UTC+2, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 21 May 2020 23:36:12 UTC-4, James wrote:
On 19/5/20 11:51 am, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 18 May 2020 21:42:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/18/2020 6:38 PM, James wrote:

I bought a gravel bike so that I have more variety of routes and places
to explore.Â* I often ride a mix of bitumen and gravel, and the MTB is
just a slug on bitumen.Â* Furthermore my gravel bike has 3 water bottles
in the main triangle, which is really handy around here in hot weather.
It's also good for towing my shopping trailer.

I certainly agree about mountain bikes being "slugs" on paved roads.

If you ride nobbies.

I have a friend who is not an avid cyclist, although he did some 1000
mile camping tours when much younger. He likes riding under a full moon,
and usually invites me to ride with him. I use one of my road bikes, he
uses his mountain bike. In fact, he uses it everywhere, except off road.
He has no interest in riding on dirt.

At one time, he mentioned that he still had his 1970s Trek touring bike,
but it needed lots of work. I said that bike would be much more
appropriate for his riding and offered to overhaul it for him. And I put
many hours into a complete overhaul. (I may have mentioned having to
disassemble the Campy touring rear derailleur to get it working.)

He came to get the completed bike, test rode it once around my block and
said he didn't like it. It didn't feel stable enough for him. AFAIK he's
never ridden it since.

Did you set it up for racing or touring?

Most of the difference is in the steering. The angle of the head tube
and trail is different on a MTB.

I find riding a MTB no hands is challenging, and easy with on a road or
gravel bike.

YMMV

MTBs typically also have suspension forks and almost flat handlebars.
The former adds a heap of unnecessary weight and the latter encourages a
sit up and beg riding position, with little opportunity for change.

--
JS

I have a number of old rigid frame, rigid front fork MTBs that I've converted to dropbar dirt/gravel roads and/or touring bikes. I like the 26" MTB size wheels because tires are so varied in possible choices. I can tires from 50+mm to 25.4mm online if not in the bicycle shop. Anything from slicks to aggressive knobs are available. In my honest opinion that's about the most versatile wheel size there is. Others, well, YMMV

Cheers

Before gravel bikes were 'invented'/became popular the crossbike was the way to go for off road riding if you didn't want to ride a sluggish ATB.. Because of the UCI limitation for cross bikes the choice of tyres was very limited. Now with the gravel bikes the choice is huge.

Lou

I'm not quite sure what you mean by limited. The cross bikes I've had all would take 32 mm tires and if you use any larger you end up with the same sluggishness as an MTB.

That is the limitation I am talking about. The sluggishness of a MTB comes from all the suspension **** not from the tires. Off road riding of course.

I have a local course with short uphill stretches of perhaps 100 meters of 24% or more loose rock. NO cross bike will go up those but I could get 7/8ths of the way to the top before carrying them the rest of the way. I did manage to go all the way to the top with a full suspension bike but they are very heavy on the front end and you don't have to worry about them lifting a front wheel.

The shorter 20% I would ride over. The downhill sections are 30% and more in sections and 32 mm tires are too much traction. That is dangerous to try and do more than try to slow yourself for the next hairpin turn. The idea is to wait for a flatter section and cram on the brakes to slow you for the next steep section. One particularly nasty area was only 40 meters long but covered entirely with cross hatched rain ruts and 40%. The idea was to hit that fast enough that you got through it and onto the flat before you lost control.

With a full suspension you just rode through it at any speed you wanted to go.

But climbing I would run away from MTB's. Especially full suspension models which are so heavy. I'm told that the very top end are no heavier than a cross bike but I would have to see them to believe it.

I see people with 36 or even 42 mm tires on cross bikes but I'm sure that they don't ride any real off-road.

That is what I have on my crossbike 42 mm rear, 35 in front to prevent snake bites goining over roots. I do ride real off road. All the trails my friends need a ATB for I manage with my cross bike running 46/36 chainrings and 12/32 cassette. They only have to get out of my way because I have to maintain a certain momentum. They can't with their ridiculous small gears and the fact they have to be seated because of the suspension. I sold both my ATB's.

Lou

It comes from the sheer weight as well. I've come up behind a lot of MTB's and tried to ride their speed and simply could not. At near 2 mph with a cadence of 80 like these people are doing the suspension doesn't really bounce much.

On Fri, 22 May 2020 10:34:10 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/22/2020 9:15 AM, wrote:
On Friday, May 22, 2020 at 6:35:26 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/21/2020 11:04 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 21 May 2020 23:36:12 UTC-4, James wrote:
On 19/5/20 11:51 am, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 18 May 2020 21:42:56 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 5/18/2020 6:38 PM, James wrote:

I bought a gravel bike so that I have more variety of routes and places
to explore. I often ride a mix of bitumen and gravel, and the MTB is
just a slug on bitumen. Furthermore my gravel bike has 3 water bottles
in the main triangle, which is really handy around here in hot weather.
It's also good for towing my shopping trailer.

I certainly agree about mountain bikes being "slugs" on paved roads.

If you ride nobbies.

I have a friend who is not an avid cyclist, although he did some 1000
mile camping tours when much younger. He likes riding under a full moon,
and usually invites me to ride with him. I use one of my road bikes, he
uses his mountain bike. In fact, he uses it everywhere, except off road.
He has no interest in riding on dirt.

At one time, he mentioned that he still had his 1970s Trek touring bike,
but it needed lots of work. I said that bike would be much more
appropriate for his riding and offered to overhaul it for him. And I put
many hours into a complete overhaul. (I may have mentioned having to
disassemble the Campy touring rear derailleur to get it working.)

He came to get the completed bike, test rode it once around my block and
said he didn't like it. It didn't feel stable enough for him. AFAIK he's
never ridden it since.

Did you set it up for racing or touring?

Most of the difference is in the steering. The angle of the head tube
and trail is different on a MTB.

I find riding a MTB no hands is challenging, and easy with on a road or
gravel bike.

YMMV

MTBs typically also have suspension forks and almost flat handlebars.
The former adds a heap of unnecessary weight and the latter encourages a
sit up and beg riding position, with little opportunity for change.

--
JS

I have a number of old rigid frame, rigid front fork MTBs that I've converted to dropbar dirt/gravel roads and/or touring bikes. I like the 26" MTB size wheels because tires are so varied in possible choices. I can tires from 50+mm to 25.4mm online if not in the bicycle shop. Anything from slicks to aggressive knobs are available. In my honest opinion that's about the most versatile wheel size there is. Others, well, YMMV

Cheers


You are not alone in that analysis:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/3rmt.html


Tire availability aside there was a reason that MTB's went to 29" (700c). 26" tires stick in places that the larger diameter simply rolls over.


I didn't understand '29' bikes (700x54) at all until we did
a custom Gunnar for a Special Forces operator some 16 years
ago. A muscular six and a half feet of rider looks all
wrong on anything 26-inch. 700x54 is very proportional for
big guys.

That said, our culture is plagued by trendiness. I roll my
eyes when short women come in with 13" frame '29' bikes,
seat all the way down and handlebars way out there someplace
beyond her hands. "It's the latest thing" offsets reason all
too often.


Didn't TREK have some sort of equation rating rider height with wheel
size? I seem to remember a poster at my LBS saying that tall guys
should ride a 29'er.

Which I thought a bit pretentious in a country where the average male
height is 5'7" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On 22/5/20 2:04 pm, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 21 May 2020 23:36:12 UTC-4, James wrote:


Most of the difference is in the steering. The angle of the head tube
and trail is different on a MTB.

I find riding a MTB no hands is challenging, and easy with on a road or
gravel bike.

YMMV

MTBs typically also have suspension forks and almost flat handlebars.
The former adds a heap of unnecessary weight and the latter encourages a
sit up and beg riding position, with little opportunity for change.


I have a number of old rigid frame, rigid front fork MTBs that I've converted to dropbar dirt/gravel roads and/or touring bikes. I like the 26" MTB size wheels because tires are so varied in possible choices. I can tires from 50+mm to 25.4mm online if not in the bicycle shop. Anything from slicks to aggressive knobs are available. In my honest opinion that's about the most versatile wheel size there is. Others, well, YMMV


Older MTBs are possibly better. I think the trend is a more lazy head
tube angle (further from vertical) these days, and that just makes the
on road steering suck.

--
JS

On Saturday, May 23, 2020 at 4:34:21 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 22/5/20 2:04 pm, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 21 May 2020 23:36:12 UTC-4, James wrote:


Most of the difference is in the steering. The angle of the head tube
and trail is different on a MTB.

I find riding a MTB no hands is challenging, and easy with on a road or
gravel bike.

YMMV

MTBs typically also have suspension forks and almost flat handlebars.
The former adds a heap of unnecessary weight and the latter encourages a
sit up and beg riding position, with little opportunity for change.


I have a number of old rigid frame, rigid front fork MTBs that I've converted to dropbar dirt/gravel roads and/or touring bikes. I like the 26" MTB size wheels because tires are so varied in possible choices. I can tires from 50+mm to 25.4mm online if not in the bicycle shop. Anything from slicks to aggressive knobs are available. In my honest opinion that's about the most versatile wheel size there is. Others, well, YMMV


Older MTBs are possibly better. I think the trend is a more lazy head
tube angle (further from vertical) these days, and that just makes the
on road steering suck.

Boost and cranks with wider tread are allowing double suspended bikes with shorter chain stays and a sportier feel. This is according to my mountain bike friend. Head angle is a different issue, but modern suspended MTBs are a different animal than the suspended bikes of yore. There are so many MTB choices these days, it's mind-boggling. My son riffs on all the offerings on the market and the shades of difference between models in the same line or the confluence of MTB lines.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 5/23/2020 6:34 PM, James wrote:
On 22/5/20 2:04 pm, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 21 May 2020 23:36:12 UTC-4, James wrote:


Most of the difference is in the steering. The angle of
the head tube
and trail is different on a MTB.

I find riding a MTB no hands is challenging, and easy
with on a road or
gravel bike.

YMMV

MTBs typically also have suspension forks and almost flat
handlebars.
The former adds a heap of unnecessary weight and the
latter encourages a
sit up and beg riding position, with little opportunity
for change.


I have a number of old rigid frame, rigid front fork MTBs
that I've converted to dropbar dirt/gravel roads and/or
touring bikes. I like the 26" MTB size wheels because
tires are so varied in possible choices. I can tires from
50+mm to 25.4mm online if not in the bicycle shop.
Anything from slicks to aggressive knobs are available. In
my honest opinion that's about the most versatile wheel
size there is. Others, well, YMMV


Older MTBs are possibly better. I think the trend is a more
lazy head tube angle (further from vertical) these days, and
that just makes the on road steering suck.


Sometimes. Many of the early MTB models had very high BB,
not so great with full cargo

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, May 24, 2020 at 1:59:48 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 23, 2020 at 4:34:21 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 22/5/20 2:04 pm, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 21 May 2020 23:36:12 UTC-4, James wrote:


Most of the difference is in the steering. The angle of the head tube
and trail is different on a MTB.

I find riding a MTB no hands is challenging, and easy with on a road or
gravel bike.

YMMV

MTBs typically also have suspension forks and almost flat handlebars..
The former adds a heap of unnecessary weight and the latter encourages a
sit up and beg riding position, with little opportunity for change.


I have a number of old rigid frame, rigid front fork MTBs that I've converted to dropbar dirt/gravel roads and/or touring bikes. I like the 26" MTB size wheels because tires are so varied in possible choices. I can tires from 50+mm to 25.4mm online if not in the bicycle shop. Anything from slicks to aggressive knobs are available. In my honest opinion that's about the most versatile wheel size there is. Others, well, YMMV


Older MTBs are possibly better. I think the trend is a more lazy head
tube angle (further from vertical) these days, and that just makes the
on road steering suck.

Boost and cranks with wider tread are allowing double suspended bikes with shorter chain stays and a sportier feel. This is according to my mountain bike friend. Head angle is a different issue, but modern suspended MTBs are a different animal than the suspended bikes of yore. There are so many MTB choices these days, it's mind-boggling. My son riffs on all the offerings on the market and the shades of difference between models in the same line or the confluence of MTB lines.

-- Jay Beattie.

Choosing a MTB today is pretty complicated.

Lou