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Trek and the Average Man



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 16th 20, 05:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Trek and the Average Man

On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 9:38:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 5:45:45 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 12:19:48 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 10:38:59 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 2:27:43 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 11:48:12 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:16:39 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 9:22:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:26:47 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 7:46:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
It appears that the Trek Factory is taking over the Trek stores of at least a great many of them.

I had the "Dreaded BB90 Problem" (BB bearings are slip fit instead of press fit) and called the local private Trek shop and they had no clue about it since they deal with so few top-of-the-line Treks which are the only one's that have a BB90.

So I called the also local Trek Factory shop. The phone nearly rang off of the hook before they answered it. Talking to them the guy admitted that he was new and didn't know much about BB90 (and won't have to for herein out since Trek has converted to T47 bottom brackets which come in two varieties - internal and external though it is rather stupid way of labeling them since both have external screw-in cups. One is a wide BB into which the cups screw all the way and there is also an external cup that screws into the narrower and smaller diameter aluminum frames. It adds about an ounce to the Madone etc. frame but forever ends the creaking and clicking of bottom brackets that Trek started and most of the other CF builders copied on their top of the line frames. This has the advantage of making most of the Treks using the same two CC cuts and fitting the same Shimano cranksets.

In any case he told me that the Trek store in Livermore had the BB90 expert that could fix the BB permanently. I doubt that since I intend to keep this bike forever and the Trek factory uses Chinese bearings which are not, shall we say, long lived.

It would be nice to use Japanese bearings which are so much better than anything else that they aren't even in the same category. I looked around but they don't seem to make the size that a BB90 uses.

So when they open up I will have to take the Trek in to have the bottom brackets replaced with the specially oversized Trek BB90 bearings.

What is funny about it is that they aren't "special" at all. Chinese bearings have really loose tolerances and all they are doing is specially selecting the Chinese bearings with the widest possible OD (37..1 mm instead of 37 mm). If they are still too loose, they use a special Locktite to take up the slack.

It would be very nice if you could replace the BB90 with a push-in metal casing but if you did the bearings would be ridiculously tiny. And you cannot make them wider (use rollers instead of balls) since the BB is as wide as the Crankset is now.

So it is pretty plain why Trek is changing to a heavier bottom bracket but that doesn't help me and as I say, this and the Emonda and the Colnago CLX3.0 and the Lemond are my final bike purchases for the end of my life. So I need to get what I have working. I should probably have bought the same year of Madone that was a 6.2 which has a different seatpost and was fitted with the necessary holes to install Di2. But that is past and this does give me a chance to compare the manual shifting Dura Ace 9000 group with the 9000 Di2.

Wow. What an epic. Why don't you buy the 37.1 bearings and press them in. https://www.enduroforkseals.com/prod...BB90HT2CS.html Hit "add to cart" button.
Or some standard bearings and Loctite 638. https://wheelsmfg.com/bottom-brackets/trek-bb90-95.html Fifteen minute job. Five more for installing the crank. If the BB is still OS, send the frame to Trek for repair -- which they will do.

Thanks for the Arizona people. The Locktite 638 is the retaining compound and if there is any play in the bearing you have to use another "filler" type of Locktite the number of which slips my mind.

638 fills gaps to .25mm. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/retai...ounds/8211425/ If 37.1mm bearing does not work, there is no such thing as a 37.2mm bearing, unless you have it custom manufactured. Standard is 37mm.


But I suspect that this frame had a creak and they already used the 37.1 bearing and all I'll have to do it press fit the larger bearings.

Again, what larger bearing? If you get to the point where 37.1 doesn't work, your options are a Loctite-like filler/retaining compound (many on the market) or a repair.


Remember that using Locktite is not something that you would usually do with something like a press-fit bearing. It was designed for holding screws from loosening. If the bearing should need replacing in the future it can enlarge the hole pushing it out and taking part of the finish with it.

I use Loctite 609 on my BB30s. Made for press fit applications, although I've used it most frequently on aluminum BBs, I don't have any reason to believe it would hasten the death of my CF BBs. I used it on the Roubaix CF BB now used by my son, and it has produced a silent BB, and he's a watt monster. Never had removal issues using Loctite 609.

-- Jay Beattie.

I would not use loctite 638. You have a hard time removing bearings installed with loctite 638. I use it for bearings in test set ups instead of a press fit because it is easier (no press tool needed) but it is not meant for removal. You can but you have to heat it and then it is still a PIA.

Lou

BB Infinite is pretty upbeat about Loctite 638 on sloppy Trek BB90s: https://www.bbinfinite.com/blogs/new...blems-solved-1

I've never used it, although I've used some Permatex high-heat sleeve retainer on an aluminum BB, and the bearings popped out O.K.

-- Jay Beattie.

Holy ****-in-a-jar. I just took the Emonda out on my first test ride and I can't believe it. I could hardly feel the cracks in the road. I got to a spot that the asphalt was breaking into a bunch of segments and riding over that I couldn't feel it at all. The bike handles quite a bit faster than any of my other bikes but as soon as you get moving you don't notice it.

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  #12  
Old May 16th 20, 06:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Trek and the Average Man

On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 6:51:02 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 9:38:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 5:45:45 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 12:19:48 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 10:38:59 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 2:27:43 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 11:48:12 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:16:39 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 9:22:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:26:47 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 7:46:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
It appears that the Trek Factory is taking over the Trek stores of at least a great many of them.

I had the "Dreaded BB90 Problem" (BB bearings are slip fit instead of press fit) and called the local private Trek shop and they had no clue about it since they deal with so few top-of-the-line Treks which are the only one's that have a BB90.

So I called the also local Trek Factory shop. The phone nearly rang off of the hook before they answered it. Talking to them the guy admitted that he was new and didn't know much about BB90 (and won't have to for herein out since Trek has converted to T47 bottom brackets which come in two varieties - internal and external though it is rather stupid way of labeling them since both have external screw-in cups. One is a wide BB into which the cups screw all the way and there is also an external cup that screws into the narrower and smaller diameter aluminum frames. It adds about an ounce to the Madone etc. frame but forever ends the creaking and clicking of bottom brackets that Trek started and most of the other CF builders copied on their top of the line frames. This has the advantage of making most of the Treks using the same two CC cuts and fitting the same Shimano cranksets.

In any case he told me that the Trek store in Livermore had the BB90 expert that could fix the BB permanently. I doubt that since I intend to keep this bike forever and the Trek factory uses Chinese bearings which are not, shall we say, long lived.

It would be nice to use Japanese bearings which are so much better than anything else that they aren't even in the same category.. I looked around but they don't seem to make the size that a BB90 uses.

So when they open up I will have to take the Trek in to have the bottom brackets replaced with the specially oversized Trek BB90 bearings.

What is funny about it is that they aren't "special" at all. Chinese bearings have really loose tolerances and all they are doing is specially selecting the Chinese bearings with the widest possible OD (37.1 mm instead of 37 mm). If they are still too loose, they use a special Locktite to take up the slack.

It would be very nice if you could replace the BB90 with a push-in metal casing but if you did the bearings would be ridiculously tiny. And you cannot make them wider (use rollers instead of balls) since the BB is as wide as the Crankset is now.

So it is pretty plain why Trek is changing to a heavier bottom bracket but that doesn't help me and as I say, this and the Emonda and the Colnago CLX3.0 and the Lemond are my final bike purchases for the end of my life. So I need to get what I have working. I should probably have bought the same year of Madone that was a 6.2 which has a different seatpost and was fitted with the necessary holes to install Di2. But that is past and this does give me a chance to compare the manual shifting Dura Ace 9000 group with the 9000 Di2.

Wow. What an epic. Why don't you buy the 37.1 bearings and press them in. https://www.enduroforkseals.com/prod...BB90HT2CS.html Hit "add to cart" button.
Or some standard bearings and Loctite 638. https://wheelsmfg.com/bottom-brackets/trek-bb90-95.html Fifteen minute job. Five more for installing the crank. If the BB is still OS, send the frame to Trek for repair -- which they will do.

Thanks for the Arizona people. The Locktite 638 is the retaining compound and if there is any play in the bearing you have to use another "filler" type of Locktite the number of which slips my mind.

638 fills gaps to .25mm. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/retai...ounds/8211425/ If 37.1mm bearing does not work, there is no such thing as a 37.2mm bearing, unless you have it custom manufactured. Standard is 37mm.


But I suspect that this frame had a creak and they already used the 37.1 bearing and all I'll have to do it press fit the larger bearings.

Again, what larger bearing? If you get to the point where 37.1 doesn't work, your options are a Loctite-like filler/retaining compound (many on the market) or a repair.


Remember that using Locktite is not something that you would usually do with something like a press-fit bearing. It was designed for holding screws from loosening. If the bearing should need replacing in the future it can enlarge the hole pushing it out and taking part of the finish with it.

I use Loctite 609 on my BB30s. Made for press fit applications, although I've used it most frequently on aluminum BBs, I don't have any reason to believe it would hasten the death of my CF BBs. I used it on the Roubaix CF BB now used by my son, and it has produced a silent BB, and he's a watt monster. Never had removal issues using Loctite 609.

-- Jay Beattie.

I would not use loctite 638. You have a hard time removing bearings installed with loctite 638. I use it for bearings in test set ups instead of a press fit because it is easier (no press tool needed) but it is not meant for removal. You can but you have to heat it and then it is still a PIA.

Lou

BB Infinite is pretty upbeat about Loctite 638 on sloppy Trek BB90s: https://www.bbinfinite.com/blogs/new...blems-solved-1

I've never used it, although I've used some Permatex high-heat sleeve retainer on an aluminum BB, and the bearings popped out O.K.

-- Jay Beattie.

Holy ****-in-a-jar. I just took the Emonda out on my first test ride and I can't believe it. I could hardly feel the cracks in the road. I got to a spot that the asphalt was breaking into a bunch of segments and riding over that I couldn't feel it at all. The bike handles quite a bit faster than any of my other bikes but as soon as you get moving you don't notice it.

Now I have to finish the Madone to see if it too rides that smoothly. That is such a giant leap over my other bikes I may end up selling all but the Treks. Presently it appears that the Madone will be tiny bit lighter.

Somewhere or other I got a Selle San Marco Ponza saddle and while I only did a short ride it too looked better than the Prologo saddles I've been using.

To tell you the truth I never expected that much of a ride improvement. The Lemond steers really well. The Colnago handles well at high speed. But I think that the Trek is far better at both.

That is de magic of a new bike ;-)

Heavy on the magic. I was descending this road last night on my Emonda and could in fact feel the pavement. https://tinyurl.com/y9g25rx5 It's a fine riding bike, but when you hit broken pavement, you know it. I get jarred on my gravel bike on that road. BTW, on that little pre-dinner ride last night, I did some single track on 25mm tires, sliding around in mud on a short neighborhood trail that puts you he https://tinyurl.com/y9wpqmsz and then up the hill to a very popular road for riding laps. The trail segment hugs a hillside, and its a little nerve wracking because if you slip too much, you fall into a ravine.

The Emonda is a great bike. I got an SLR shop pro directly from the guys at Trek, and it is my favorite ever fast bike. Super light, good climbing bike, rails down hills, good sprinting bike although not the last word in stiffness (which is a plus most of the time, especially since my sprint is glacial). It is really low cachet however, being that its from the GM of bicycle makers. I'd get more respect if it were a Trekarello with gratuitously wavy forks.

-- Jay Beattie.


After a while there is nothing magical about any frame material. It is all about fit, position and geometry. According to the latest reports my new frame for my gravel bike will be shipped next week after almost 6 months after the initial order. Murphy struck big time with this.

Lou


You stuck with Moots? Awesome. That will help us out the economic slump here in the US.

-- Jay Beattie.


Yes I did. Moots was not to blame. They were very helpful after I figured out what was going on. Great guys. You're welcome.

Lou
  #13  
Old May 17th 20, 06:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 884
Default Trek and the Average Man

On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 12:19:48 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 10:38:59 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 2:27:43 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 11:48:12 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:16:39 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 9:22:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:26:47 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 7:46:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
It appears that the Trek Factory is taking over the Trek stores of at least a great many of them.

I had the "Dreaded BB90 Problem" (BB bearings are slip fit instead of press fit) and called the local private Trek shop and they had no clue about it since they deal with so few top-of-the-line Treks which are the only one's that have a BB90.

So I called the also local Trek Factory shop. The phone nearly rang off of the hook before they answered it. Talking to them the guy admitted that he was new and didn't know much about BB90 (and won't have to for herein out since Trek has converted to T47 bottom brackets which come in two varieties - internal and external though it is rather stupid way of labeling them since both have external screw-in cups. One is a wide BB into which the cups screw all the way and there is also an external cup that screws into the narrower and smaller diameter aluminum frames. It adds about an ounce to the Madone etc. frame but forever ends the creaking and clicking of bottom brackets that Trek started and most of the other CF builders copied on their top of the line frames. This has the advantage of making most of the Treks using the same two CC cuts and fitting the same Shimano cranksets.

In any case he told me that the Trek store in Livermore had the BB90 expert that could fix the BB permanently. I doubt that since I intend to keep this bike forever and the Trek factory uses Chinese bearings which are not, shall we say, long lived.

It would be nice to use Japanese bearings which are so much better than anything else that they aren't even in the same category. I looked around but they don't seem to make the size that a BB90 uses.

So when they open up I will have to take the Trek in to have the bottom brackets replaced with the specially oversized Trek BB90 bearings.

What is funny about it is that they aren't "special" at all.. Chinese bearings have really loose tolerances and all they are doing is specially selecting the Chinese bearings with the widest possible OD (37.1 mm instead of 37 mm). If they are still too loose, they use a special Locktite to take up the slack.

It would be very nice if you could replace the BB90 with a push-in metal casing but if you did the bearings would be ridiculously tiny.. And you cannot make them wider (use rollers instead of balls) since the BB is as wide as the Crankset is now.

So it is pretty plain why Trek is changing to a heavier bottom bracket but that doesn't help me and as I say, this and the Emonda and the Colnago CLX3.0 and the Lemond are my final bike purchases for the end of my life. So I need to get what I have working. I should probably have bought the same year of Madone that was a 6.2 which has a different seatpost and was fitted with the necessary holes to install Di2. But that is past and this does give me a chance to compare the manual shifting Dura Ace 9000 group with the 9000 Di2.

Wow. What an epic. Why don't you buy the 37.1 bearings and press them in. https://www.enduroforkseals.com/prod...BB90HT2CS.html Hit "add to cart" button.
Or some standard bearings and Loctite 638. https://wheelsmfg.com/bottom-brackets/trek-bb90-95.html Fifteen minute job. Five more for installing the crank. If the BB is still OS, send the frame to Trek for repair -- which they will do.

Thanks for the Arizona people. The Locktite 638 is the retaining compound and if there is any play in the bearing you have to use another "filler" type of Locktite the number of which slips my mind.

638 fills gaps to .25mm. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/retai...ounds/8211425/ If 37.1mm bearing does not work, there is no such thing as a 37.2mm bearing, unless you have it custom manufactured. Standard is 37mm.


But I suspect that this frame had a creak and they already used the 37.1 bearing and all I'll have to do it press fit the larger bearings.

Again, what larger bearing? If you get to the point where 37.1 doesn't work, your options are a Loctite-like filler/retaining compound (many on the market) or a repair.


Remember that using Locktite is not something that you would usually do with something like a press-fit bearing. It was designed for holding screws from loosening. If the bearing should need replacing in the future it can enlarge the hole pushing it out and taking part of the finish with it.

I use Loctite 609 on my BB30s. Made for press fit applications, although I've used it most frequently on aluminum BBs, I don't have any reason to believe it would hasten the death of my CF BBs. I used it on the Roubaix CF BB now used by my son, and it has produced a silent BB, and he's a watt monster. Never had removal issues using Loctite 609.

-- Jay Beattie.

I would not use loctite 638. You have a hard time removing bearings installed with loctite 638. I use it for bearings in test set ups instead of a press fit because it is easier (no press tool needed) but it is not meant for removal. You can but you have to heat it and then it is still a PIA..

Lou

BB Infinite is pretty upbeat about Loctite 638 on sloppy Trek BB90s: https://www.bbinfinite.com/blogs/new...blems-solved-1

I've never used it, although I've used some Permatex high-heat sleeve retainer on an aluminum BB, and the bearings popped out O.K.

-- Jay Beattie.


Holy ****-in-a-jar. I just took the Emonda out on my first test ride and I can't believe it. I could hardly feel the cracks in the road. I got to a spot that the asphalt was breaking into a bunch of segments and riding over that I couldn't feel it at all. The bike handles quite a bit faster than any of my other bikes but as soon as you get moving you don't notice it.

Now I have to finish the Madone to see if it too rides that smoothly. That is such a giant leap over my other bikes I may end up selling all but the Treks. Presently it appears that the Madone will be tiny bit lighter.

Somewhere or other I got a Selle San Marco Ponza saddle and while I only did a short ride it too looked better than the Prologo saddles I've been using.

To tell you the truth I never expected that much of a ride improvement. The Lemond steers really well. The Colnago handles well at high speed. But I think that the Trek is far better at both.


That is de magic of a new bike ;-)

Lou


Lou, I have had a lot of bikes. Many of them had one or another advantage. But I have never had a bike that had a total advantage in every category.
  #14  
Old May 17th 20, 06:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 884
Default Trek and the Average Man

On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 8:45:45 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 12:19:48 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 10:38:59 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 2:27:43 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 11:48:12 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:16:39 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 9:22:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:26:47 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 7:46:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
It appears that the Trek Factory is taking over the Trek stores of at least a great many of them.

I had the "Dreaded BB90 Problem" (BB bearings are slip fit instead of press fit) and called the local private Trek shop and they had no clue about it since they deal with so few top-of-the-line Treks which are the only one's that have a BB90.

So I called the also local Trek Factory shop. The phone nearly rang off of the hook before they answered it. Talking to them the guy admitted that he was new and didn't know much about BB90 (and won't have to for herein out since Trek has converted to T47 bottom brackets which come in two varieties - internal and external though it is rather stupid way of labeling them since both have external screw-in cups. One is a wide BB into which the cups screw all the way and there is also an external cup that screws into the narrower and smaller diameter aluminum frames. It adds about an ounce to the Madone etc. frame but forever ends the creaking and clicking of bottom brackets that Trek started and most of the other CF builders copied on their top of the line frames. This has the advantage of making most of the Treks using the same two CC cuts and fitting the same Shimano cranksets.

In any case he told me that the Trek store in Livermore had the BB90 expert that could fix the BB permanently. I doubt that since I intend to keep this bike forever and the Trek factory uses Chinese bearings which are not, shall we say, long lived.

It would be nice to use Japanese bearings which are so much better than anything else that they aren't even in the same category. I looked around but they don't seem to make the size that a BB90 uses.

So when they open up I will have to take the Trek in to have the bottom brackets replaced with the specially oversized Trek BB90 bearings.

What is funny about it is that they aren't "special" at all. Chinese bearings have really loose tolerances and all they are doing is specially selecting the Chinese bearings with the widest possible OD (37.1 mm instead of 37 mm). If they are still too loose, they use a special Locktite to take up the slack.

It would be very nice if you could replace the BB90 with a push-in metal casing but if you did the bearings would be ridiculously tiny. And you cannot make them wider (use rollers instead of balls) since the BB is as wide as the Crankset is now.

So it is pretty plain why Trek is changing to a heavier bottom bracket but that doesn't help me and as I say, this and the Emonda and the Colnago CLX3.0 and the Lemond are my final bike purchases for the end of my life. So I need to get what I have working. I should probably have bought the same year of Madone that was a 6.2 which has a different seatpost and was fitted with the necessary holes to install Di2. But that is past and this does give me a chance to compare the manual shifting Dura Ace 9000 group with the 9000 Di2.

Wow. What an epic. Why don't you buy the 37.1 bearings and press them in. https://www.enduroforkseals.com/prod...BB90HT2CS.html Hit "add to cart" button.
Or some standard bearings and Loctite 638. https://wheelsmfg.com/bottom-brackets/trek-bb90-95.html Fifteen minute job. Five more for installing the crank. If the BB is still OS, send the frame to Trek for repair -- which they will do.

Thanks for the Arizona people. The Locktite 638 is the retaining compound and if there is any play in the bearing you have to use another "filler" type of Locktite the number of which slips my mind.

638 fills gaps to .25mm. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/retai...ounds/8211425/ If 37.1mm bearing does not work, there is no such thing as a 37.2mm bearing, unless you have it custom manufactured. Standard is 37mm.


But I suspect that this frame had a creak and they already used the 37.1 bearing and all I'll have to do it press fit the larger bearings.

Again, what larger bearing? If you get to the point where 37.1 doesn't work, your options are a Loctite-like filler/retaining compound (many on the market) or a repair.


Remember that using Locktite is not something that you would usually do with something like a press-fit bearing. It was designed for holding screws from loosening. If the bearing should need replacing in the future it can enlarge the hole pushing it out and taking part of the finish with it.

I use Loctite 609 on my BB30s. Made for press fit applications, although I've used it most frequently on aluminum BBs, I don't have any reason to believe it would hasten the death of my CF BBs. I used it on the Roubaix CF BB now used by my son, and it has produced a silent BB, and he's a watt monster. Never had removal issues using Loctite 609.

-- Jay Beattie.

I would not use loctite 638. You have a hard time removing bearings installed with loctite 638. I use it for bearings in test set ups instead of a press fit because it is easier (no press tool needed) but it is not meant for removal. You can but you have to heat it and then it is still a PIA.

Lou

BB Infinite is pretty upbeat about Loctite 638 on sloppy Trek BB90s: https://www.bbinfinite.com/blogs/new...blems-solved-1

I've never used it, although I've used some Permatex high-heat sleeve retainer on an aluminum BB, and the bearings popped out O.K.

-- Jay Beattie.

Holy ****-in-a-jar. I just took the Emonda out on my first test ride and I can't believe it. I could hardly feel the cracks in the road. I got to a spot that the asphalt was breaking into a bunch of segments and riding over that I couldn't feel it at all. The bike handles quite a bit faster than any of my other bikes but as soon as you get moving you don't notice it.

Now I have to finish the Madone to see if it too rides that smoothly. That is such a giant leap over my other bikes I may end up selling all but the Treks. Presently it appears that the Madone will be tiny bit lighter.

Somewhere or other I got a Selle San Marco Ponza saddle and while I only did a short ride it too looked better than the Prologo saddles I've been using.

To tell you the truth I never expected that much of a ride improvement. The Lemond steers really well. The Colnago handles well at high speed. But I think that the Trek is far better at both.


That is de magic of a new bike ;-)


Heavy on the magic. I was descending this road last night on my Emonda and could in fact feel the pavement. https://tinyurl.com/y9g25rx5 It's a fine riding bike, but when you hit broken pavement, you know it. I get jarred on my gravel bike on that road. BTW, on that little pre-dinner ride last night, I did some single track on 25mm tires, sliding around in mud on a short neighborhood trail that puts you he https://tinyurl.com/y9wpqmsz and then up the hill to a very popular road for riding laps. The trail segment hugs a hillside, and its a little nerve wracking because if you slip too much, you fall into a ravine.

The Emonda is a great bike. I got an SLR shop pro directly from the guys at Trek, and it is my favorite ever fast bike. Super light, good climbing bike, rails down hills, good sprinting bike although not the last word in stiffness (which is a plus most of the time, especially since my sprint is glacial). It is really low cachet however, being that its from the GM of bicycle makers. I'd get more respect if it were a Trekarello with gratuitously wavy forks.

-- Jay Beattie.


Riding across very rough road, board bridges or the lake I can feel it also but on normal pavement with the normal expansion cracks and the like it is so much better than anything else that I am shocked.

I haven't done a 50 mile ride with a lot of climbing on it since the first of the year and I did that yesterday without a qualm. My legs aren't sore today and I'm not all that tired.
  #15  
Old May 17th 20, 09:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 824
Default Trek and the Average Man

On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 7:44:38 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 12:19:48 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 10:38:59 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 2:27:43 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 11:48:12 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:16:39 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 9:22:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:26:47 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 7:46:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
It appears that the Trek Factory is taking over the Trek stores of at least a great many of them.

I had the "Dreaded BB90 Problem" (BB bearings are slip fit instead of press fit) and called the local private Trek shop and they had no clue about it since they deal with so few top-of-the-line Treks which are the only one's that have a BB90.

So I called the also local Trek Factory shop. The phone nearly rang off of the hook before they answered it. Talking to them the guy admitted that he was new and didn't know much about BB90 (and won't have to for herein out since Trek has converted to T47 bottom brackets which come in two varieties - internal and external though it is rather stupid way of labeling them since both have external screw-in cups. One is a wide BB into which the cups screw all the way and there is also an external cup that screws into the narrower and smaller diameter aluminum frames. It adds about an ounce to the Madone etc. frame but forever ends the creaking and clicking of bottom brackets that Trek started and most of the other CF builders copied on their top of the line frames. This has the advantage of making most of the Treks using the same two CC cuts and fitting the same Shimano cranksets.

In any case he told me that the Trek store in Livermore had the BB90 expert that could fix the BB permanently. I doubt that since I intend to keep this bike forever and the Trek factory uses Chinese bearings which are not, shall we say, long lived.

It would be nice to use Japanese bearings which are so much better than anything else that they aren't even in the same category. I looked around but they don't seem to make the size that a BB90 uses.

So when they open up I will have to take the Trek in to have the bottom brackets replaced with the specially oversized Trek BB90 bearings.

What is funny about it is that they aren't "special" at all. Chinese bearings have really loose tolerances and all they are doing is specially selecting the Chinese bearings with the widest possible OD (37.1 mm instead of 37 mm). If they are still too loose, they use a special Locktite to take up the slack.

It would be very nice if you could replace the BB90 with a push-in metal casing but if you did the bearings would be ridiculously tiny. And you cannot make them wider (use rollers instead of balls) since the BB is as wide as the Crankset is now.

So it is pretty plain why Trek is changing to a heavier bottom bracket but that doesn't help me and as I say, this and the Emonda and the Colnago CLX3.0 and the Lemond are my final bike purchases for the end of my life. So I need to get what I have working. I should probably have bought the same year of Madone that was a 6.2 which has a different seatpost and was fitted with the necessary holes to install Di2. But that is past and this does give me a chance to compare the manual shifting Dura Ace 9000 group with the 9000 Di2.

Wow. What an epic. Why don't you buy the 37.1 bearings and press them in. https://www.enduroforkseals.com/prod...BB90HT2CS.html Hit "add to cart" button.
Or some standard bearings and Loctite 638. https://wheelsmfg.com/bottom-brackets/trek-bb90-95.html Fifteen minute job. Five more for installing the crank. If the BB is still OS, send the frame to Trek for repair -- which they will do.

Thanks for the Arizona people. The Locktite 638 is the retaining compound and if there is any play in the bearing you have to use another "filler" type of Locktite the number of which slips my mind.

638 fills gaps to .25mm. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/retai...ounds/8211425/ If 37.1mm bearing does not work, there is no such thing as a 37.2mm bearing, unless you have it custom manufactured. Standard is 37mm.


But I suspect that this frame had a creak and they already used the 37.1 bearing and all I'll have to do it press fit the larger bearings.

Again, what larger bearing? If you get to the point where 37.1 doesn't work, your options are a Loctite-like filler/retaining compound (many on the market) or a repair.


Remember that using Locktite is not something that you would usually do with something like a press-fit bearing. It was designed for holding screws from loosening. If the bearing should need replacing in the future it can enlarge the hole pushing it out and taking part of the finish with it.

I use Loctite 609 on my BB30s. Made for press fit applications, although I've used it most frequently on aluminum BBs, I don't have any reason to believe it would hasten the death of my CF BBs. I used it on the Roubaix CF BB now used by my son, and it has produced a silent BB, and he's a watt monster. Never had removal issues using Loctite 609.

-- Jay Beattie.

I would not use loctite 638. You have a hard time removing bearings installed with loctite 638. I use it for bearings in test set ups instead of a press fit because it is easier (no press tool needed) but it is not meant for removal. You can but you have to heat it and then it is still a PIA.

Lou

BB Infinite is pretty upbeat about Loctite 638 on sloppy Trek BB90s: https://www.bbinfinite.com/blogs/new...blems-solved-1

I've never used it, although I've used some Permatex high-heat sleeve retainer on an aluminum BB, and the bearings popped out O.K.

-- Jay Beattie.

Holy ****-in-a-jar. I just took the Emonda out on my first test ride and I can't believe it. I could hardly feel the cracks in the road. I got to a spot that the asphalt was breaking into a bunch of segments and riding over that I couldn't feel it at all. The bike handles quite a bit faster than any of my other bikes but as soon as you get moving you don't notice it.

Now I have to finish the Madone to see if it too rides that smoothly. That is such a giant leap over my other bikes I may end up selling all but the Treks. Presently it appears that the Madone will be tiny bit lighter.

Somewhere or other I got a Selle San Marco Ponza saddle and while I only did a short ride it too looked better than the Prologo saddles I've been using.

To tell you the truth I never expected that much of a ride improvement. The Lemond steers really well. The Colnago handles well at high speed. But I think that the Trek is far better at both.


That is de magic of a new bike ;-)

Lou


Lou, I have had a lot of bikes. Many of them had one or another advantage.. But I have never had a bike that had a total advantage in every category.


I have a lot of bikes too. It is complicated. After two years I'm still figuring out why I like my Canyon Aeroad so much. Is because it is aero? Is it because it is CF? Is it the DA Di2 gruppo? Or is it the sound of the Zipp wheels (woenff, woenff, woenff)? I think it fits and it makes me feel good, so I go faster on that bike.
It was a joke Tom, have fun with the Emonda.

Lou
  #16  
Old May 17th 20, 10:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Trek and the Average Man

On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 1:53:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 7:44:38 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 12:19:48 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 10:38:59 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 2:27:43 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 11:48:12 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:16:39 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 9:22:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:26:47 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 7:46:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
It appears that the Trek Factory is taking over the Trek stores of at least a great many of them.

I had the "Dreaded BB90 Problem" (BB bearings are slip fit instead of press fit) and called the local private Trek shop and they had no clue about it since they deal with so few top-of-the-line Treks which are the only one's that have a BB90.

So I called the also local Trek Factory shop. The phone nearly rang off of the hook before they answered it. Talking to them the guy admitted that he was new and didn't know much about BB90 (and won't have to for herein out since Trek has converted to T47 bottom brackets which come in two varieties - internal and external though it is rather stupid way of labeling them since both have external screw-in cups. One is a wide BB into which the cups screw all the way and there is also an external cup that screws into the narrower and smaller diameter aluminum frames. It adds about an ounce to the Madone etc. frame but forever ends the creaking and clicking of bottom brackets that Trek started and most of the other CF builders copied on their top of the line frames. This has the advantage of making most of the Treks using the same two CC cuts and fitting the same Shimano cranksets.

In any case he told me that the Trek store in Livermore had the BB90 expert that could fix the BB permanently. I doubt that since I intend to keep this bike forever and the Trek factory uses Chinese bearings which are not, shall we say, long lived.

It would be nice to use Japanese bearings which are so much better than anything else that they aren't even in the same category. I looked around but they don't seem to make the size that a BB90 uses.

So when they open up I will have to take the Trek in to have the bottom brackets replaced with the specially oversized Trek BB90 bearings.

What is funny about it is that they aren't "special" at all. Chinese bearings have really loose tolerances and all they are doing is specially selecting the Chinese bearings with the widest possible OD (37..1 mm instead of 37 mm). If they are still too loose, they use a special Locktite to take up the slack.

It would be very nice if you could replace the BB90 with a push-in metal casing but if you did the bearings would be ridiculously tiny. And you cannot make them wider (use rollers instead of balls) since the BB is as wide as the Crankset is now.

So it is pretty plain why Trek is changing to a heavier bottom bracket but that doesn't help me and as I say, this and the Emonda and the Colnago CLX3.0 and the Lemond are my final bike purchases for the end of my life. So I need to get what I have working. I should probably have bought the same year of Madone that was a 6.2 which has a different seatpost and was fitted with the necessary holes to install Di2. But that is past and this does give me a chance to compare the manual shifting Dura Ace 9000 group with the 9000 Di2.

Wow. What an epic. Why don't you buy the 37.1 bearings and press them in. https://www.enduroforkseals.com/prod...BB90HT2CS.html Hit "add to cart" button.
Or some standard bearings and Loctite 638. https://wheelsmfg.com/bottom-brackets/trek-bb90-95.html Fifteen minute job. Five more for installing the crank. If the BB is still OS, send the frame to Trek for repair -- which they will do.

Thanks for the Arizona people. The Locktite 638 is the retaining compound and if there is any play in the bearing you have to use another "filler" type of Locktite the number of which slips my mind.

638 fills gaps to .25mm. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/retai...ounds/8211425/ If 37.1mm bearing does not work, there is no such thing as a 37.2mm bearing, unless you have it custom manufactured. Standard is 37mm.


But I suspect that this frame had a creak and they already used the 37.1 bearing and all I'll have to do it press fit the larger bearings.

Again, what larger bearing? If you get to the point where 37.1 doesn't work, your options are a Loctite-like filler/retaining compound (many on the market) or a repair.


Remember that using Locktite is not something that you would usually do with something like a press-fit bearing. It was designed for holding screws from loosening. If the bearing should need replacing in the future it can enlarge the hole pushing it out and taking part of the finish with it.

I use Loctite 609 on my BB30s. Made for press fit applications, although I've used it most frequently on aluminum BBs, I don't have any reason to believe it would hasten the death of my CF BBs. I used it on the Roubaix CF BB now used by my son, and it has produced a silent BB, and he's a watt monster. Never had removal issues using Loctite 609.

-- Jay Beattie.

I would not use loctite 638. You have a hard time removing bearings installed with loctite 638. I use it for bearings in test set ups instead of a press fit because it is easier (no press tool needed) but it is not meant for removal. You can but you have to heat it and then it is still a PIA.

Lou

BB Infinite is pretty upbeat about Loctite 638 on sloppy Trek BB90s: https://www.bbinfinite.com/blogs/new...blems-solved-1

I've never used it, although I've used some Permatex high-heat sleeve retainer on an aluminum BB, and the bearings popped out O.K.

-- Jay Beattie.

Holy ****-in-a-jar. I just took the Emonda out on my first test ride and I can't believe it. I could hardly feel the cracks in the road. I got to a spot that the asphalt was breaking into a bunch of segments and riding over that I couldn't feel it at all. The bike handles quite a bit faster than any of my other bikes but as soon as you get moving you don't notice it.

  #17  
Old May 18th 20, 07:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 884
Default Trek and the Average Man

On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 2:52:58 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 1:53:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 7:44:38 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 12:19:48 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 10:38:59 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 2:27:43 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 11:48:12 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:16:39 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 9:22:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:26:47 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 7:46:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
It appears that the Trek Factory is taking over the Trek stores of at least a great many of them.

I had the "Dreaded BB90 Problem" (BB bearings are slip fit instead of press fit) and called the local private Trek shop and they had no clue about it since they deal with so few top-of-the-line Treks which are the only one's that have a BB90.

So I called the also local Trek Factory shop. The phone nearly rang off of the hook before they answered it. Talking to them the guy admitted that he was new and didn't know much about BB90 (and won't have to for herein out since Trek has converted to T47 bottom brackets which come in two varieties - internal and external though it is rather stupid way of labeling them since both have external screw-in cups. One is a wide BB into which the cups screw all the way and there is also an external cup that screws into the narrower and smaller diameter aluminum frames. It adds about an ounce to the Madone etc. frame but forever ends the creaking and clicking of bottom brackets that Trek started and most of the other CF builders copied on their top of the line frames. This has the advantage of making most of the Treks using the same two CC cuts and fitting the same Shimano cranksets.

In any case he told me that the Trek store in Livermore had the BB90 expert that could fix the BB permanently. I doubt that since I intend to keep this bike forever and the Trek factory uses Chinese bearings which are not, shall we say, long lived.

It would be nice to use Japanese bearings which are so much better than anything else that they aren't even in the same category.. I looked around but they don't seem to make the size that a BB90 uses.

So when they open up I will have to take the Trek in to have the bottom brackets replaced with the specially oversized Trek BB90 bearings.

What is funny about it is that they aren't "special" at all. Chinese bearings have really loose tolerances and all they are doing is specially selecting the Chinese bearings with the widest possible OD (37.1 mm instead of 37 mm). If they are still too loose, they use a special Locktite to take up the slack.

It would be very nice if you could replace the BB90 with a push-in metal casing but if you did the bearings would be ridiculously tiny. And you cannot make them wider (use rollers instead of balls) since the BB is as wide as the Crankset is now.

So it is pretty plain why Trek is changing to a heavier bottom bracket but that doesn't help me and as I say, this and the Emonda and the Colnago CLX3.0 and the Lemond are my final bike purchases for the end of my life. So I need to get what I have working. I should probably have bought the same year of Madone that was a 6.2 which has a different seatpost and was fitted with the necessary holes to install Di2. But that is past and this does give me a chance to compare the manual shifting Dura Ace 9000 group with the 9000 Di2.

Wow. What an epic. Why don't you buy the 37.1 bearings and press them in. https://www.enduroforkseals.com/prod...BB90HT2CS.html Hit "add to cart" button.
Or some standard bearings and Loctite 638. https://wheelsmfg.com/bottom-brackets/trek-bb90-95.html Fifteen minute job. Five more for installing the crank. If the BB is still OS, send the frame to Trek for repair -- which they will do.

Thanks for the Arizona people. The Locktite 638 is the retaining compound and if there is any play in the bearing you have to use another "filler" type of Locktite the number of which slips my mind.

638 fills gaps to .25mm. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/retai...ounds/8211425/ If 37.1mm bearing does not work, there is no such thing as a 37.2mm bearing, unless you have it custom manufactured. Standard is 37mm.


But I suspect that this frame had a creak and they already used the 37.1 bearing and all I'll have to do it press fit the larger bearings.

Again, what larger bearing? If you get to the point where 37.1 doesn't work, your options are a Loctite-like filler/retaining compound (many on the market) or a repair.


Remember that using Locktite is not something that you would usually do with something like a press-fit bearing. It was designed for holding screws from loosening. If the bearing should need replacing in the future it can enlarge the hole pushing it out and taking part of the finish with it.

I use Loctite 609 on my BB30s. Made for press fit applications, although I've used it most frequently on aluminum BBs, I don't have any reason to believe it would hasten the death of my CF BBs. I used it on the Roubaix CF BB now used by my son, and it has produced a silent BB, and he's a watt monster. Never had removal issues using Loctite 609.

-- Jay Beattie.

I would not use loctite 638. You have a hard time removing bearings installed with loctite 638. I use it for bearings in test set ups instead of a press fit because it is easier (no press tool needed) but it is not meant for removal. You can but you have to heat it and then it is still a PIA.

Lou

BB Infinite is pretty upbeat about Loctite 638 on sloppy Trek BB90s: https://www.bbinfinite.com/blogs/new...blems-solved-1

I've never used it, although I've used some Permatex high-heat sleeve retainer on an aluminum BB, and the bearings popped out O.K.

-- Jay Beattie.

Holy ****-in-a-jar. I just took the Emonda out on my first test ride and I can't believe it. I could hardly feel the cracks in the road. I got to a spot that the asphalt was breaking into a bunch of segments and riding over that I couldn't feel it at all. The bike handles quite a bit faster than any of my other bikes but as soon as you get moving you don't notice it.

Now I have to finish the Madone to see if it too rides that smoothly. That is such a giant leap over my other bikes I may end up selling all but the Treks. Presently it appears that the Madone will be tiny bit lighter.

Somewhere or other I got a Selle San Marco Ponza saddle and while I only did a short ride it too looked better than the Prologo saddles I've been using.

To tell you the truth I never expected that much of a ride improvement. The Lemond steers really well. The Colnago handles well at high speed. But I think that the Trek is far better at both.

That is de magic of a new bike ;-)

Lou

Lou, I have had a lot of bikes. Many of them had one or another advantage. But I have never had a bike that had a total advantage in every category.


I have a lot of bikes too. It is complicated. After two years I'm still figuring out why I like my Canyon Aeroad so much. Is because it is aero? Is it because it is CF? Is it the DA Di2 gruppo? Or is it the sound of the Zipp wheels (woenff, woenff, woenff)? I think it fits and it makes me feel good, so I go faster on that bike.
It was a joke Tom, have fun with the Emonda.


I was on the Emonda today for a rolling 50 miles with two friends and thought the bike was feeling too smooth -- and it was, because I was getting a rear flat. When I put in a new tube and pumped up my 25mm Pro4 with a 16g bottle of CO2, I could feel all the bad pavement again. Tire pressure and tire type make a huge difference in road feel, probably more than minor differences in frame damping.

The Emonda is my favorite bike because it fits really well, and its light and peppy but not overly-stiff. If it didn't fit, I'd hate it. I have do do more work on my Synapse because it kills my back. It is not a comfortable comfort bike right now, and I think it is a saddle fore-aft issues. It is also heavier and when it hits a bump makes a lot of noise because of the fenders (non-rigid attachment at the plastic brake bridge hanger), so it sounds like it rides more roughly, but who knows. Acoustics make a big difference.

If my bike fits, the saddle is comfortable and my bars/gloves are adequately padded, I have never really felt beaten-up by the road, at least not on pavement. My first CF bike was a Cannondale Supersix which had virtually the same geometry as my CAAD 9. It was a little stiffer in the front end, which I liked -- but its not like the CF frame smoothed out the road in any appreciable way, and it was more "dead" feeling than the CAAD 9, which had a little spring to it that was pleasant and not tiring. The stiffer front end made the Supersix a better descending bike, though, and it was a little lighter. Not a big difference between the two bikes, though.

-- Jay Beattie.


I received the oversize bearings Friday but also got an email from BBInfinite and he stated that the oversize bearings should only be used if you cannot use their repair kit. He stated that if you fit the oversize bearings into too tight a fit you have two problems - firstly that the oversize bearings can cause compression of the bearing greatly shortening it's life. And one you install the oversize bearing there's no going back so you don't have a backup plan.

While their video looks good and their charts on their website seem to show a huge improvement in rolling resistance with their ceramic bearing kit (at $190) that is ONLY the resistance of free spinning. For actual pedaling pressure ceramic bearings do not make much of an improvement. I would certainly use them if I were riding a pro-TT but not when a bearing set costs $20 vs $190.

Too bad they don't make Japanese bearings that fit in the BB90. They have MUCH harder and higher quality steel and the standards are far tighter than in the Chinese bearings.

So I ordered the Locktite 680 or whatever their repair kit is and I will try that. It is certainly easy enough to pop a crank out, knock out the bearings and insert the oversize bearings if necessary..
  #18  
Old May 18th 20, 08:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Trek and the Average Man

On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 11:34:20 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 2:52:58 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 1:53:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 7:44:38 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 12:19:48 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 10:38:59 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 2:27:43 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 11:48:12 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:16:39 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 9:22:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:26:47 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 7:46:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
It appears that the Trek Factory is taking over the Trek stores of at least a great many of them.

I had the "Dreaded BB90 Problem" (BB bearings are slip fit instead of press fit) and called the local private Trek shop and they had no clue about it since they deal with so few top-of-the-line Treks which are the only one's that have a BB90.

So I called the also local Trek Factory shop. The phone nearly rang off of the hook before they answered it. Talking to them the guy admitted that he was new and didn't know much about BB90 (and won't have to for herein out since Trek has converted to T47 bottom brackets which come in two varieties - internal and external though it is rather stupid way of labeling them since both have external screw-in cups. One is a wide BB into which the cups screw all the way and there is also an external cup that screws into the narrower and smaller diameter aluminum frames. It adds about an ounce to the Madone etc. frame but forever ends the creaking and clicking of bottom brackets that Trek started and most of the other CF builders copied on their top of the line frames. This has the advantage of making most of the Treks using the same two CC cuts and fitting the same Shimano cranksets.

In any case he told me that the Trek store in Livermore had the BB90 expert that could fix the BB permanently. I doubt that since I intend to keep this bike forever and the Trek factory uses Chinese bearings which are not, shall we say, long lived.

It would be nice to use Japanese bearings which are so much better than anything else that they aren't even in the same category. I looked around but they don't seem to make the size that a BB90 uses.

So when they open up I will have to take the Trek in to have the bottom brackets replaced with the specially oversized Trek BB90 bearings.

What is funny about it is that they aren't "special" at all. Chinese bearings have really loose tolerances and all they are doing is specially selecting the Chinese bearings with the widest possible OD (37.1 mm instead of 37 mm). If they are still too loose, they use a special Locktite to take up the slack.

It would be very nice if you could replace the BB90 with a push-in metal casing but if you did the bearings would be ridiculously tiny. And you cannot make them wider (use rollers instead of balls) since the BB is as wide as the Crankset is now.

So it is pretty plain why Trek is changing to a heavier bottom bracket but that doesn't help me and as I say, this and the Emonda and the Colnago CLX3.0 and the Lemond are my final bike purchases for the end of my life. So I need to get what I have working. I should probably have bought the same year of Madone that was a 6.2 which has a different seatpost and was fitted with the necessary holes to install Di2. But that is past and this does give me a chance to compare the manual shifting Dura Ace 9000 group with the 9000 Di2.

Wow. What an epic. Why don't you buy the 37.1 bearings and press them in. https://www.enduroforkseals.com/prod...BB90HT2CS.html Hit "add to cart" button.
Or some standard bearings and Loctite 638. https://wheelsmfg.com/bottom-brackets/trek-bb90-95.html Fifteen minute job. Five more for installing the crank. If the BB is still OS, send the frame to Trek for repair -- which they will do.

Thanks for the Arizona people. The Locktite 638 is the retaining compound and if there is any play in the bearing you have to use another "filler" type of Locktite the number of which slips my mind.

638 fills gaps to .25mm. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/retai...ounds/8211425/ If 37.1mm bearing does not work, there is no such thing as a 37.2mm bearing, unless you have it custom manufactured. Standard is 37mm.


But I suspect that this frame had a creak and they already used the 37.1 bearing and all I'll have to do it press fit the larger bearings.

Again, what larger bearing? If you get to the point where 37.1 doesn't work, your options are a Loctite-like filler/retaining compound (many on the market) or a repair.


Remember that using Locktite is not something that you would usually do with something like a press-fit bearing. It was designed for holding screws from loosening. If the bearing should need replacing in the future it can enlarge the hole pushing it out and taking part of the finish with it.

I use Loctite 609 on my BB30s. Made for press fit applications, although I've used it most frequently on aluminum BBs, I don't have any reason to believe it would hasten the death of my CF BBs. I used it on the Roubaix CF BB now used by my son, and it has produced a silent BB, and he's a watt monster. Never had removal issues using Loctite 609.

-- Jay Beattie.

I would not use loctite 638. You have a hard time removing bearings installed with loctite 638. I use it for bearings in test set ups instead of a press fit because it is easier (no press tool needed) but it is not meant for removal. You can but you have to heat it and then it is still a PIA.

Lou

BB Infinite is pretty upbeat about Loctite 638 on sloppy Trek BB90s: https://www.bbinfinite.com/blogs/new...blems-solved-1

I've never used it, although I've used some Permatex high-heat sleeve retainer on an aluminum BB, and the bearings popped out O.K.

-- Jay Beattie.

Holy ****-in-a-jar. I just took the Emonda out on my first test ride and I can't believe it. I could hardly feel the cracks in the road. I got to a spot that the asphalt was breaking into a bunch of segments and riding over that I couldn't feel it at all. The bike handles quite a bit faster than any of my other bikes but as soon as you get moving you don't notice it.

Now I have to finish the Madone to see if it too rides that smoothly. That is such a giant leap over my other bikes I may end up selling all but the Treks. Presently it appears that the Madone will be tiny bit lighter.

Somewhere or other I got a Selle San Marco Ponza saddle and while I only did a short ride it too looked better than the Prologo saddles I've been using.

To tell you the truth I never expected that much of a ride improvement. The Lemond steers really well. The Colnago handles well at high speed. But I think that the Trek is far better at both.

That is de magic of a new bike ;-)

Lou

Lou, I have had a lot of bikes. Many of them had one or another advantage. But I have never had a bike that had a total advantage in every category.

I have a lot of bikes too. It is complicated. After two years I'm still figuring out why I like my Canyon Aeroad so much. Is because it is aero? Is it because it is CF? Is it the DA Di2 gruppo? Or is it the sound of the Zipp wheels (woenff, woenff, woenff)? I think it fits and it makes me feel good, so I go faster on that bike.
It was a joke Tom, have fun with the Emonda.


I was on the Emonda today for a rolling 50 miles with two friends and thought the bike was feeling too smooth -- and it was, because I was getting a rear flat. When I put in a new tube and pumped up my 25mm Pro4 with a 16g bottle of CO2, I could feel all the bad pavement again. Tire pressure and tire type make a huge difference in road feel, probably more than minor differences in frame damping.

The Emonda is my favorite bike because it fits really well, and its light and peppy but not overly-stiff. If it didn't fit, I'd hate it. I have do do more work on my Synapse because it kills my back. It is not a comfortable comfort bike right now, and I think it is a saddle fore-aft issues. It is also heavier and when it hits a bump makes a lot of noise because of the fenders (non-rigid attachment at the plastic brake bridge hanger), so it sounds like it rides more roughly, but who knows. Acoustics make a big difference.

If my bike fits, the saddle is comfortable and my bars/gloves are adequately padded, I have never really felt beaten-up by the road, at least not on pavement. My first CF bike was a Cannondale Supersix which had virtually the same geometry as my CAAD 9. It was a little stiffer in the front end, which I liked -- but its not like the CF frame smoothed out the road in any appreciable way, and it was more "dead" feeling than the CAAD 9, which had a little spring to it that was pleasant and not tiring. The stiffer front end made the Supersix a better descending bike, though, and it was a little lighter. Not a big difference between the two bikes, though.

-- Jay Beattie.


I received the oversize bearings Friday but also got an email from BBInfinite and he stated that the oversize bearings should only be used if you cannot use their repair kit. He stated that if you fit the oversize bearings into too tight a fit you have two problems - firstly that the oversize bearings can cause compression of the bearing greatly shortening it's life. And one you install the oversize bearing there's no going back so you don't have a backup plan.

While their video looks good and their charts on their website seem to show a huge improvement in rolling resistance with their ceramic bearing kit (at $190) that is ONLY the resistance of free spinning. For actual pedaling pressure ceramic bearings do not make much of an improvement. I would certainly use them if I were riding a pro-TT but not when a bearing set costs $20 vs $190.

Too bad they don't make Japanese bearings that fit in the BB90. They have MUCH harder and higher quality steel and the standards are far tighter than in the Chinese bearings.

So I ordered the Locktite 680 or whatever their repair kit is and I will try that. It is certainly easy enough to pop a crank out, knock out the bearings and insert the oversize bearings if necessary..


I thought you had the shop put in a BB. Is the problem BB on the Madone and not the Emonda? Maybe you should have the Trek guys look at the Madone.

Also, you can go with the Hambini approach -- a standard 6805 bearing with a spacer and a really high price. https://www.hambini.com/product/trek-bb90-bearing-kit/

This is actually a great solution that lets you use whatever bearing maker you want. Get a Swiss bearing: https://tinyurl.com/y7hng4uv

Cheap method: get the tophats from BB Infinite. https://www.bbinfinite.com/products/...e-modules-pair Then you can go buy some Japanese or Swiss 6805 bearings. 6805 bearings are available from a lot of sources unlike BB 90 bearings with ID of 24mm.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #19  
Old May 18th 20, 09:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 884
Default Trek and the Average Man

On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 12:30:15 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 11:34:20 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 2:52:58 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 1:53:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 7:44:38 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 12:19:48 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 10:38:59 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 2:27:43 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 11:48:12 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:16:39 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 9:22:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:26:47 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 7:46:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
It appears that the Trek Factory is taking over the Trek stores of at least a great many of them.

I had the "Dreaded BB90 Problem" (BB bearings are slip fit instead of press fit) and called the local private Trek shop and they had no clue about it since they deal with so few top-of-the-line Treks which are the only one's that have a BB90.

So I called the also local Trek Factory shop. The phone nearly rang off of the hook before they answered it. Talking to them the guy admitted that he was new and didn't know much about BB90 (and won't have to for herein out since Trek has converted to T47 bottom brackets which come in two varieties - internal and external though it is rather stupid way of labeling them since both have external screw-in cups. One is a wide BB into which the cups screw all the way and there is also an external cup that screws into the narrower and smaller diameter aluminum frames. It adds about an ounce to the Madone etc. frame but forever ends the creaking and clicking of bottom brackets that Trek started and most of the other CF builders copied on their top of the line frames. This has the advantage of making most of the Treks using the same two CC cuts and fitting the same Shimano cranksets.

In any case he told me that the Trek store in Livermore had the BB90 expert that could fix the BB permanently. I doubt that since I intend to keep this bike forever and the Trek factory uses Chinese bearings which are not, shall we say, long lived.

It would be nice to use Japanese bearings which are so much better than anything else that they aren't even in the same category. I looked around but they don't seem to make the size that a BB90 uses..

So when they open up I will have to take the Trek in to have the bottom brackets replaced with the specially oversized Trek BB90 bearings.

What is funny about it is that they aren't "special" at all. Chinese bearings have really loose tolerances and all they are doing is specially selecting the Chinese bearings with the widest possible OD (37.1 mm instead of 37 mm). If they are still too loose, they use a special Locktite to take up the slack.

It would be very nice if you could replace the BB90 with a push-in metal casing but if you did the bearings would be ridiculously tiny. And you cannot make them wider (use rollers instead of balls) since the BB is as wide as the Crankset is now.

So it is pretty plain why Trek is changing to a heavier bottom bracket but that doesn't help me and as I say, this and the Emonda and the Colnago CLX3.0 and the Lemond are my final bike purchases for the end of my life. So I need to get what I have working. I should probably have bought the same year of Madone that was a 6.2 which has a different seatpost and was fitted with the necessary holes to install Di2. But that is past and this does give me a chance to compare the manual shifting Dura Ace 9000 group with the 9000 Di2.

Wow. What an epic. Why don't you buy the 37.1 bearings and press them in. https://www.enduroforkseals.com/prod...BB90HT2CS.html Hit "add to cart" button.
Or some standard bearings and Loctite 638. https://wheelsmfg.com/bottom-brackets/trek-bb90-95.html Fifteen minute job. Five more for installing the crank. If the BB is still OS, send the frame to Trek for repair -- which they will do.

Thanks for the Arizona people. The Locktite 638 is the retaining compound and if there is any play in the bearing you have to use another "filler" type of Locktite the number of which slips my mind.

638 fills gaps to .25mm. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/retai...ounds/8211425/ If 37.1mm bearing does not work, there is no such thing as a 37.2mm bearing, unless you have it custom manufactured. Standard is 37mm.


But I suspect that this frame had a creak and they already used the 37.1 bearing and all I'll have to do it press fit the larger bearings.

Again, what larger bearing? If you get to the point where 37.1 doesn't work, your options are a Loctite-like filler/retaining compound (many on the market) or a repair.


Remember that using Locktite is not something that you would usually do with something like a press-fit bearing. It was designed for holding screws from loosening. If the bearing should need replacing in the future it can enlarge the hole pushing it out and taking part of the finish with it.

I use Loctite 609 on my BB30s. Made for press fit applications, although I've used it most frequently on aluminum BBs, I don't have any reason to believe it would hasten the death of my CF BBs. I used it on the Roubaix CF BB now used by my son, and it has produced a silent BB, and he's a watt monster. Never had removal issues using Loctite 609.

-- Jay Beattie.

I would not use loctite 638. You have a hard time removing bearings installed with loctite 638. I use it for bearings in test set ups instead of a press fit because it is easier (no press tool needed) but it is not meant for removal. You can but you have to heat it and then it is still a PIA.

Lou

BB Infinite is pretty upbeat about Loctite 638 on sloppy Trek BB90s: https://www.bbinfinite.com/blogs/new...blems-solved-1

I've never used it, although I've used some Permatex high-heat sleeve retainer on an aluminum BB, and the bearings popped out O.K.

-- Jay Beattie.

Holy ****-in-a-jar. I just took the Emonda out on my first test ride and I can't believe it. I could hardly feel the cracks in the road. I got to a spot that the asphalt was breaking into a bunch of segments and riding over that I couldn't feel it at all. The bike handles quite a bit faster than any of my other bikes but as soon as you get moving you don't notice it.

Now I have to finish the Madone to see if it too rides that smoothly. That is such a giant leap over my other bikes I may end up selling all but the Treks. Presently it appears that the Madone will be tiny bit lighter.

Somewhere or other I got a Selle San Marco Ponza saddle and while I only did a short ride it too looked better than the Prologo saddles I've been using.

To tell you the truth I never expected that much of a ride improvement. The Lemond steers really well. The Colnago handles well at high speed. But I think that the Trek is far better at both.

That is de magic of a new bike ;-)

Lou

Lou, I have had a lot of bikes. Many of them had one or another advantage. But I have never had a bike that had a total advantage in every category.

I have a lot of bikes too. It is complicated. After two years I'm still figuring out why I like my Canyon Aeroad so much. Is because it is aero? Is it because it is CF? Is it the DA Di2 gruppo? Or is it the sound of the Zipp wheels (woenff, woenff, woenff)? I think it fits and it makes me feel good, so I go faster on that bike.
It was a joke Tom, have fun with the Emonda.

I was on the Emonda today for a rolling 50 miles with two friends and thought the bike was feeling too smooth -- and it was, because I was getting a rear flat. When I put in a new tube and pumped up my 25mm Pro4 with a 16g bottle of CO2, I could feel all the bad pavement again. Tire pressure and tire type make a huge difference in road feel, probably more than minor differences in frame damping.

The Emonda is my favorite bike because it fits really well, and its light and peppy but not overly-stiff. If it didn't fit, I'd hate it. I have do do more work on my Synapse because it kills my back. It is not a comfortable comfort bike right now, and I think it is a saddle fore-aft issues. It is also heavier and when it hits a bump makes a lot of noise because of the fenders (non-rigid attachment at the plastic brake bridge hanger), so it sounds like it rides more roughly, but who knows. Acoustics make a big difference.

If my bike fits, the saddle is comfortable and my bars/gloves are adequately padded, I have never really felt beaten-up by the road, at least not on pavement. My first CF bike was a Cannondale Supersix which had virtually the same geometry as my CAAD 9. It was a little stiffer in the front end, which I liked -- but its not like the CF frame smoothed out the road in any appreciable way, and it was more "dead" feeling than the CAAD 9, which had a little spring to it that was pleasant and not tiring. The stiffer front end made the Supersix a better descending bike, though, and it was a little lighter. Not a big difference between the two bikes, though.

-- Jay Beattie.


I received the oversize bearings Friday but also got an email from BBInfinite and he stated that the oversize bearings should only be used if you cannot use their repair kit. He stated that if you fit the oversize bearings into too tight a fit you have two problems - firstly that the oversize bearings can cause compression of the bearing greatly shortening it's life. And one you install the oversize bearing there's no going back so you don't have a backup plan.

While their video looks good and their charts on their website seem to show a huge improvement in rolling resistance with their ceramic bearing kit (at $190) that is ONLY the resistance of free spinning. For actual pedaling pressure ceramic bearings do not make much of an improvement. I would certainly use them if I were riding a pro-TT but not when a bearing set costs $20 vs $190.

Too bad they don't make Japanese bearings that fit in the BB90. They have MUCH harder and higher quality steel and the standards are far tighter than in the Chinese bearings.

So I ordered the Locktite 680 or whatever their repair kit is and I will try that. It is certainly easy enough to pop a crank out, knock out the bearings and insert the oversize bearings if necessary..


I thought you had the shop put in a BB. Is the problem BB on the Madone and not the Emonda? Maybe you should have the Trek guys look at the Madone.

Also, you can go with the Hambini approach -- a standard 6805 bearing with a spacer and a really high price. https://www.hambini.com/product/trek-bb90-bearing-kit/

This is actually a great solution that lets you use whatever bearing maker you want. Get a Swiss bearing: https://tinyurl.com/y7hng4uv

Cheap method: get the tophats from BB Infinite. https://www.bbinfinite.com/products/...e-modules-pair Then you can go buy some Japanese or Swiss 6805 bearings. 6805 bearings are available from a lot of sources unlike BB 90 bearings with ID of 24mm.

-- Jay Beattie.


Correct, the Emonda is silent but when trying to assemble the Madone the bearings slipped in by hand without a press. I will attempt the "repair" recommended by BBInfinite and if it makes noise I will replace it with the oversize bearings. That only takes minutes.
  #20  
Old May 18th 20, 09:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 884
Default Trek and the Average Man

On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 12:30:15 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 11:34:20 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 2:52:58 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 1:53:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 17, 2020 at 7:44:38 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 12:19:48 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, May 15, 2020 at 10:38:59 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 2:27:43 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 11:48:12 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:16:39 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 9:22:16 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 8:26:47 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 7:46:01 AM UTC-7, wrote:
It appears that the Trek Factory is taking over the Trek stores of at least a great many of them.

I had the "Dreaded BB90 Problem" (BB bearings are slip fit instead of press fit) and called the local private Trek shop and they had no clue about it since they deal with so few top-of-the-line Treks which are the only one's that have a BB90.

So I called the also local Trek Factory shop. The phone nearly rang off of the hook before they answered it. Talking to them the guy admitted that he was new and didn't know much about BB90 (and won't have to for herein out since Trek has converted to T47 bottom brackets which come in two varieties - internal and external though it is rather stupid way of labeling them since both have external screw-in cups. One is a wide BB into which the cups screw all the way and there is also an external cup that screws into the narrower and smaller diameter aluminum frames. It adds about an ounce to the Madone etc. frame but forever ends the creaking and clicking of bottom brackets that Trek started and most of the other CF builders copied on their top of the line frames. This has the advantage of making most of the Treks using the same two CC cuts and fitting the same Shimano cranksets.

In any case he told me that the Trek store in Livermore had the BB90 expert that could fix the BB permanently. I doubt that since I intend to keep this bike forever and the Trek factory uses Chinese bearings which are not, shall we say, long lived.

It would be nice to use Japanese bearings which are so much better than anything else that they aren't even in the same category. I looked around but they don't seem to make the size that a BB90 uses..

So when they open up I will have to take the Trek in to have the bottom brackets replaced with the specially oversized Trek BB90 bearings.

What is funny about it is that they aren't "special" at all. Chinese bearings have really loose tolerances and all they are doing is specially selecting the Chinese bearings with the widest possible OD (37.1 mm instead of 37 mm). If they are still too loose, they use a special Locktite to take up the slack.

It would be very nice if you could replace the BB90 with a push-in metal casing but if you did the bearings would be ridiculously tiny. And you cannot make them wider (use rollers instead of balls) since the BB is as wide as the Crankset is now.

So it is pretty plain why Trek is changing to a heavier bottom bracket but that doesn't help me and as I say, this and the Emonda and the Colnago CLX3.0 and the Lemond are my final bike purchases for the end of my life. So I need to get what I have working. I should probably have bought the same year of Madone that was a 6.2 which has a different seatpost and was fitted with the necessary holes to install Di2. But that is past and this does give me a chance to compare the manual shifting Dura Ace 9000 group with the 9000 Di2.

Wow. What an epic. Why don't you buy the 37.1 bearings and press them in. https://www.enduroforkseals.com/prod...BB90HT2CS.html Hit "add to cart" button.
Or some standard bearings and Loctite 638. https://wheelsmfg.com/bottom-brackets/trek-bb90-95.html Fifteen minute job. Five more for installing the crank. If the BB is still OS, send the frame to Trek for repair -- which they will do.

Thanks for the Arizona people. The Locktite 638 is the retaining compound and if there is any play in the bearing you have to use another "filler" type of Locktite the number of which slips my mind.

638 fills gaps to .25mm. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/retai...ounds/8211425/ If 37.1mm bearing does not work, there is no such thing as a 37.2mm bearing, unless you have it custom manufactured. Standard is 37mm.


But I suspect that this frame had a creak and they already used the 37.1 bearing and all I'll have to do it press fit the larger bearings.

Again, what larger bearing? If you get to the point where 37.1 doesn't work, your options are a Loctite-like filler/retaining compound (many on the market) or a repair.


Remember that using Locktite is not something that you would usually do with something like a press-fit bearing. It was designed for holding screws from loosening. If the bearing should need replacing in the future it can enlarge the hole pushing it out and taking part of the finish with it.

I use Loctite 609 on my BB30s. Made for press fit applications, although I've used it most frequently on aluminum BBs, I don't have any reason to believe it would hasten the death of my CF BBs. I used it on the Roubaix CF BB now used by my son, and it has produced a silent BB, and he's a watt monster. Never had removal issues using Loctite 609.

-- Jay Beattie.

I would not use loctite 638. You have a hard time removing bearings installed with loctite 638. I use it for bearings in test set ups instead of a press fit because it is easier (no press tool needed) but it is not meant for removal. You can but you have to heat it and then it is still a PIA.

Lou

BB Infinite is pretty upbeat about Loctite 638 on sloppy Trek BB90s: https://www.bbinfinite.com/blogs/new...blems-solved-1

I've never used it, although I've used some Permatex high-heat sleeve retainer on an aluminum BB, and the bearings popped out O.K.

-- Jay Beattie.

Holy ****-in-a-jar. I just took the Emonda out on my first test ride and I can't believe it. I could hardly feel the cracks in the road. I got to a spot that the asphalt was breaking into a bunch of segments and riding over that I couldn't feel it at all. The bike handles quite a bit faster than any of my other bikes but as soon as you get moving you don't notice it.

Now I have to finish the Madone to see if it too rides that smoothly. That is such a giant leap over my other bikes I may end up selling all but the Treks. Presently it appears that the Madone will be tiny bit lighter.

Somewhere or other I got a Selle San Marco Ponza saddle and while I only did a short ride it too looked better than the Prologo saddles I've been using.

To tell you the truth I never expected that much of a ride improvement. The Lemond steers really well. The Colnago handles well at high speed. But I think that the Trek is far better at both.

That is de magic of a new bike ;-)

Lou

Lou, I have had a lot of bikes. Many of them had one or another advantage. But I have never had a bike that had a total advantage in every category.

I have a lot of bikes too. It is complicated. After two years I'm still figuring out why I like my Canyon Aeroad so much. Is because it is aero? Is it because it is CF? Is it the DA Di2 gruppo? Or is it the sound of the Zipp wheels (woenff, woenff, woenff)? I think it fits and it makes me feel good, so I go faster on that bike.
It was a joke Tom, have fun with the Emonda.

I was on the Emonda today for a rolling 50 miles with two friends and thought the bike was feeling too smooth -- and it was, because I was getting a rear flat. When I put in a new tube and pumped up my 25mm Pro4 with a 16g bottle of CO2, I could feel all the bad pavement again. Tire pressure and tire type make a huge difference in road feel, probably more than minor differences in frame damping.

The Emonda is my favorite bike because it fits really well, and its light and peppy but not overly-stiff. If it didn't fit, I'd hate it. I have do do more work on my Synapse because it kills my back. It is not a comfortable comfort bike right now, and I think it is a saddle fore-aft issues. It is also heavier and when it hits a bump makes a lot of noise because of the fenders (non-rigid attachment at the plastic brake bridge hanger), so it sounds like it rides more roughly, but who knows. Acoustics make a big difference.

If my bike fits, the saddle is comfortable and my bars/gloves are adequately padded, I have never really felt beaten-up by the road, at least not on pavement. My first CF bike was a Cannondale Supersix which had virtually the same geometry as my CAAD 9. It was a little stiffer in the front end, which I liked -- but its not like the CF frame smoothed out the road in any appreciable way, and it was more "dead" feeling than the CAAD 9, which had a little spring to it that was pleasant and not tiring. The stiffer front end made the Supersix a better descending bike, though, and it was a little lighter. Not a big difference between the two bikes, though.

-- Jay Beattie.


I received the oversize bearings Friday but also got an email from BBInfinite and he stated that the oversize bearings should only be used if you cannot use their repair kit. He stated that if you fit the oversize bearings into too tight a fit you have two problems - firstly that the oversize bearings can cause compression of the bearing greatly shortening it's life. And one you install the oversize bearing there's no going back so you don't have a backup plan.

While their video looks good and their charts on their website seem to show a huge improvement in rolling resistance with their ceramic bearing kit (at $190) that is ONLY the resistance of free spinning. For actual pedaling pressure ceramic bearings do not make much of an improvement. I would certainly use them if I were riding a pro-TT but not when a bearing set costs $20 vs $190.

Too bad they don't make Japanese bearings that fit in the BB90. They have MUCH harder and higher quality steel and the standards are far tighter than in the Chinese bearings.

So I ordered the Locktite 680 or whatever their repair kit is and I will try that. It is certainly easy enough to pop a crank out, knock out the bearings and insert the oversize bearings if necessary..


I thought you had the shop put in a BB. Is the problem BB on the Madone and not the Emonda? Maybe you should have the Trek guys look at the Madone.

Also, you can go with the Hambini approach -- a standard 6805 bearing with a spacer and a really high price. https://www.hambini.com/product/trek-bb90-bearing-kit/

This is actually a great solution that lets you use whatever bearing maker you want. Get a Swiss bearing: https://tinyurl.com/y7hng4uv

Cheap method: get the tophats from BB Infinite. https://www.bbinfinite.com/products/...e-modules-pair Then you can go buy some Japanese or Swiss 6805 bearings. 6805 bearings are available from a lot of sources unlike BB 90 bearings with ID of 24mm.

-- Jay Beattie.


It doesn't appear that you can insert a 30 MM shaft into the BB90 space. What's more, the Dura Ace aluminum crankset is lighter than the FSA carbon crankset. Much to my surprise, the Campy Record cranks are lighter than the FSA. Not a lot but people that are counting ounces and paying a fortune for a carbon fiber crank instead of a Gossamer FSAevo deserve to pay the very highest.
 




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