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The Basics of Wheel Alignment and Wheelbuilding



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 29th 04, 11:45 PM
Jeff Napier
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Default The Basics of Wheel Alignment and Wheelbuilding

You'll find a reasonable tutorial on the basics of wheel alignment and
wheelbuilding at www.bikewebsite.com
Have fun!
- Jeff -


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  #2  
Old July 30th 04, 06:13 PM
Ted
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Default The Basics of Wheel Alignment and Wheelbuilding


You'll find a reasonable tutorial on the basics of wheel alignment and
wheelbuilding at www.bikewebsite.com
Have fun!
- Jeff -


Nothing at all about stress relieving.

Pressing on the rim, against the axle end, will untwist spokes but it is
difficult to press hard enough to relieve internal stresses in
individual spokes that way. Better to add a step: wearing heavy
gloves, grasp pairs of spokes and squeeze hard, repeating all around the
wheel. Done properly, this will practically eliminate the need for
later truing and the spokes will last a long, long, time.
  #3  
Old July 30th 04, 07:59 PM
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Default The Basics of Wheel Alignment and Wheelbuilding

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:13:50 GMT, Ted
wrote:


You'll find a reasonable tutorial on the basics of wheel alignment and
wheelbuilding at www.bikewebsite.com
Have fun!
- Jeff -


Nothing at all about stress relieving.

Pressing on the rim, against the axle end, will untwist spokes but it is
difficult to press hard enough to relieve internal stresses in
individual spokes that way. Better to add a step: wearing heavy
gloves, grasp pairs of spokes and squeeze hard, repeating all around the
wheel. Done properly, this will practically eliminate the need for
later truing and the spokes will last a long, long, time.


Dear Ted,

Outside of posts on rec.bicycles.tech and references to
Jobst's book, do you know of any studies, tests, or web
pages that address what we're calling "stress relieving" and
"stress relief"?

The quotation marks are used only to broaden the question,
since there may be other names and methods for
spoke-squeezing, as well as other claims for the process is
supposed to do to the spokes.

Sheldon Brown, for example, quotes Jobst, but gives the
spokes a twist with a smooth crank arm instead of squeezing
them:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#seating

It would be interesting to find out if Japanese Keirin
bicycle mechanics squeeze or twist spokes. Maybe John Dacey
knows?

Carl Fogel
  #4  
Old July 30th 04, 10:06 PM
daveornee
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Default The Basics of Wheel Alignment and Wheelbuilding


Wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:13:50 GMT, Ted
wrote:


You'll find a reasonable tutorial on the basics of wheel alignment

and
wheelbuilding at
www.bikewebsite.com
Have fun!
- Jeff -


Nothing at all about stress relieving.

Pressing on the rim, against the axle end, will untwist spokes but it

is
difficult to press hard enough to relieve internal stresses in
individual spokes that way. Better to add a step: wearing heavy
gloves, grasp pairs of spokes and squeeze hard, repeating all around

the
wheel. Done properly, this will practically eliminate the need for
later truing and the spokes will last a long, long, time.


Dear Ted,

Outside of posts on rec.bicycles.tech and references to
Jobst's book, do you know of any studies, tests, or web
pages that address what we're calling "stress relieving" and
"stress relief"?

The quotation marks are used only to broaden the question,
since there may be other names and methods for
spoke-squeezing, as well as other claims for the process is
supposed to do to the spokes.

Sheldon Brown, for example, quotes Jobst, but gives the
spokes a twist with a smooth crank arm instead of squeezing
them:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#seating

It would be interesting to find out if Japanese Keirin
bicycle mechanics squeeze or twist spokes. Maybe John Dacey
knows?

Carl Fogel


http://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html

Might be worth a look.


--
daveornee

Bicycling 1/2 century

  #5  
Old July 30th 04, 11:21 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Basics of Wheel Alignment and Wheelbuilding

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 07:06:06 +1000, daveornee
wrote:


Wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:13:50 GMT, Ted
wrote:


You'll find a reasonable tutorial on the basics of wheel alignment

and
wheelbuilding at www.bikewebsite.com
Have fun!
- Jeff -

Nothing at all about stress relieving.

Pressing on the rim, against the axle end, will untwist spokes but it

is
difficult to press hard enough to relieve internal stresses in
individual spokes that way. Better to add a step: wearing heavy
gloves, grasp pairs of spokes and squeeze hard, repeating all around

the
wheel. Done properly, this will practically eliminate the need for
later truing and the spokes will last a long, long, time.


Dear Ted,

Outside of posts on rec.bicycles.tech and references to
Jobst's book, do you know of any studies, tests, or web
pages that address what we're calling "stress relieving" and
"stress relief"?

The quotation marks are used only to broaden the question,
since there may be other names and methods for
spoke-squeezing, as well as other claims for the process is
supposed to do to the spokes.

Sheldon Brown, for example, quotes Jobst, but gives the
spokes a twist with a smooth crank arm instead of squeezing
them:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#seating

It would be interesting to find out if Japanese Keirin
bicycle mechanics squeeze or twist spokes. Maybe John Dacey
knows?

Carl Fogel


http://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html

Might be worth a look.


Dear Dave,

Yes, that's a typical 1998 rec.bicycles.tech thread with the
usual suspects. It's one of the exchanges that led me to
wonder about the matter. Here's a fair example:

That is why I asked for references to hard scientific papers, a
mathematical explanation or other such research.


The book gives both an explanation and experimental methods by which
you can convince yourself of these effects. Had someone written about
it previously, I would not have written "the Bicycle Wheel". Much of
what the book contains could previously not be found in any
literature. The work of Karl Wiedemer is cited.


Your book contained no mathematics on this topic, no results of
proper controlled experiments on the cause of the effects and no
references that I could look up. In particular, I was extremely
surprised that it didn't seem to contain any references to where
you had published your analyses and experiments in the scientific
literature.


Well! I guess that means it is all wrong as you state.


Yes, I have tried doing a literature search, but found nothing.


As you see, I found more than you. With help I located Karl
Wiedemer's publication on the subject. Prof. Wiedemer, now
retired, did his analysis at the same time I did and he also had
no references because it was new work in a field that had progressed
without analysis for a long time. Prof. Pippard in England wrote
extensively on the subject but never discovered the mode of
wheel loading and deflections that I and Wiedemer presented.
As I said, I made the analysis by measurement and was rejected
by professors of engineering. When I presented the finite element
analysis, these same people chose to change the subject and get
back to "serious" work.


[ and so on]

Googling for "karl wiedemer" produces four other pages, all
in German, one on safety devices for coal dust, one on blast
furnace slag, one on the history of some club from 1896, and
two other in pdf format that Google does not offer to
translate.

Spoke-squeezing is an intriguingly mysterious subject to
research. I remain agnostic, wavering one way and the other,
but haven't seen any experimental data or analyses involving
bicycle spokes. If you have the 3rd edition, perhaps you
could peek at the Wiedemer stuff and give me your thoughts
on it?

Carl Fogel
  #7  
Old July 31st 04, 04:03 AM
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Default The Basics of Wheel Alignment and Wheelbuilding

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:44:49 -0700, jim beam
wrote:

wrote:

snip

Spoke-squeezing is an intriguingly mysterious subject to
research. I remain agnostic, wavering one way and the other,
but haven't seen any experimental data or analyses involving
bicycle spokes. If you have the 3rd edition, perhaps you
could peek at the Wiedemer stuff and give me your thoughts
on it?


you may also want to consider this question:

q: elevator safety certification requires loading the cab to double
it's "safe working load". this is to test the wire ropes that suspend
it. the reason is that fracture mechanics predict that this process
will typically reveal by failure any latent flaws. but, if we extend
spoke squeezing theory, wouldn't this overload procedure also prevent
fatigue of elevator cables?

a: no. elevator cables still fatigue and need regular testing,
inspection & replacement.

the bottom line is that there is no quantification or testing of this
spoke squeeze theory. squeezing "as hard as you can" is no more
scientific than building with spoke tension "as high as the rim can
bear". i would suggest to you that the reason academics "change the
subject and get back to "serious" work" is because this theory is mere
speculation - it's author has shown no basis in statistical fact, and
most definitely not by metallurgical analysis.


Dear Jim,

Aaaargh!

I really wish that you could have thought of a different
example, since I didn't want to hear that elevator cables
need replacing.

I draw comfort from a vague memory that they have some kind
of safety brake, according to Ambrose Bierce and to some
famous demonstration in which Otis cut the cable while
standing on top of an elevator.

Two questions occur to me, both illustrating the depths of
my ignorance.

First, how much do elevator cables resemble spokes? Are they
made of stainless steel? Does it matter that they bend
around pulleys in a constant side-to-side flexing different
than spokes? Do spokes and cables go through similar cycles
of tension, partial release, and back to normal tension?

Second, do spokes in well-built (by whatever means) wheels
require constant inspection and replacement?

I understand that spokes are different from cables. I'm just
wondering how big the differences are and how much they
matter.

See you in the stairwell,

Carl Fogel
  #8  
Old July 31st 04, 04:45 AM
jim beam
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Default The Basics of Wheel Alignment and Wheelbuilding

wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:44:49 -0700, jim beam
wrote:


wrote:

snip

Spoke-squeezing is an intriguingly mysterious subject to
research. I remain agnostic, wavering one way and the other,
but haven't seen any experimental data or analyses involving
bicycle spokes. If you have the 3rd edition, perhaps you
could peek at the Wiedemer stuff and give me your thoughts
on it?


you may also want to consider this question:

q: elevator safety certification requires loading the cab to double
it's "safe working load". this is to test the wire ropes that suspend
it. the reason is that fracture mechanics predict that this process
will typically reveal by failure any latent flaws. but, if we extend
spoke squeezing theory, wouldn't this overload procedure also prevent
fatigue of elevator cables?

a: no. elevator cables still fatigue and need regular testing,
inspection & replacement.

the bottom line is that there is no quantification or testing of this
spoke squeeze theory. squeezing "as hard as you can" is no more
scientific than building with spoke tension "as high as the rim can
bear". i would suggest to you that the reason academics "change the
subject and get back to "serious" work" is because this theory is mere
speculation - it's author has shown no basis in statistical fact, and
most definitely not by metallurgical analysis.



Dear Jim,

Aaaargh!

I really wish that you could have thought of a different
example, since I didn't want to hear that elevator cables
need replacing.

I draw comfort from a vague memory that they have some kind
of safety brake, according to Ambrose Bierce and to some
famous demonstration in which Otis cut the cable while
standing on top of an elevator.


as indeed i do too!


Two questions occur to me, both illustrating the depths of
my ignorance.

First, how much do elevator cables resemble spokes?


obviously, rope is multistrand, a spoke is single strand, but the
materials & applications are the same. it's only the practical issues
of price, of needing a spoke that resists torque sufficiently to be able
to tighten a nipple and indeed, ability to thread a nipple in the first
place that lead to the use of single strand.

Are they
made of stainless steel?


sometimes. but typically not unless environmental conditions demand it.
doesn't make much of a difference - neither stainless nor typical
non-stainless steel rope have an endurance limit so they'll both fatigue.

Does it matter that they bend
around pulleys in a constant side-to-side flexing different
than spokes?


yes, and those pulleys cause wear and bending stresses, but that's why
you use multi-strand in the first place. also, one strand breaking in a
rope of 100 leaves 99 others - pretty comforting. and there's a small
degree of freedom to move between strands which reduces cross sectional
stress considerably.

Do spokes and cables go through similar cycles
of tension, partial release, and back to normal tension?


yes, absolutely.


Second, do spokes in well-built (by whatever means) wheels
require constant inspection and replacement?


if you read the instructions that come with all these expensive
pre-built wheels yes! but, that's only a cursory visual inspection.
it's just like the contrasts between the safety & inspection regimes for
cars vs planes, wheel spokes are not usually considered a high fatality
risk, so there's no reason to subject them to a rigorous expensive
certification procedure.


I understand that spokes are different from cables. I'm just
wondering how big the differences are and how much they
matter.

See you in the stairwell,

Carl Fogel


  #9  
Old July 31st 04, 06:19 AM
Tim McNamara
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Posts: n/a
Default The Basics of Wheel Alignment and Wheelbuilding

jim beam writes:

wrote:

snip

Spoke-squeezing is an intriguingly mysterious subject to
research. I remain agnostic, wavering one way and the other, but
haven't seen any experimental data or analyses involving bicycle
spokes. If you have the 3rd edition, perhaps you could peek at the
Wiedemer stuff and give me your thoughts on it?


you may also want to consider this question:

q: elevator safety certification requires loading the cab to double
it's "safe working load". this is to test the wire ropes that
suspend it. the reason is that fracture mechanics predict that this
process will typically reveal by failure any latent flaws. but, if
we extend spoke squeezing theory, wouldn't this overload procedure
also prevent fatigue of elevator cables?

a: no. elevator cables still fatigue and need regular testing,
inspection & replacement.


Of course they fatique. They are constantly being wound around a drum
and unwound with a large weight dangling on the end. This doesn't
happen with spokes. Spokes are one fairly thick wire under a fairly
small load, elevator cables are thin-stranded cables with internal
friction, corrosion challenges, etc.

Additionally, a spoke supports a load much differently than an
elevator cable, as has been discussed and verified- independently of
Brandt, BTW- by finite element analysis.

I see you're keeping the fine art of red herrings alive.

the bottom line is that there is no quantification or testing of
this spoke squeeze theory. squeezing "as hard as you can" is no
more scientific than building with spoke tension "as high as the rim
can bear". i would suggest to you that the reason academics "change
the subject and get back to "serious" work" is because this theory
is mere speculation - it's author has shown no basis in statistical
fact, and most definitely not by metallurgical analysis.


And it's easy to take cheap shots when he's out of town and not able,
therefore, to respond. I don't quite know why it sticks in your craw
so much to admit even the possibility that Jobst is right, and it's an
interesting psychological problem especially when combined with your
anonymity behind a boozy screen name. But if you're going to
seriously critique his work and not just take potshots, come up with a
quantified and testable alternative analysis. Prove him wrong. Put
up or shut up. Frankly, jim beam old buddy old pal, I don't think you
have the stuff.
  #10  
Old July 31st 04, 06:34 AM
Tim McNamara
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Default The Basics of Wheel Alignment and Wheelbuilding

jim beam writes:

wrote:
Second, do spokes in well-built (by whatever means) wheels require
constant inspection and replacement?


if you read the instructions that come with all these expensive
pre-built wheels yes! but, that's only a cursory visual
inspection. it's just like the contrasts between the safety &
inspection regimes for cars vs planes, wheel spokes are not usually
considered a high fatality risk, so there's no reason to subject
them to a rigorous expensive certification procedure.


A nice duck and weave instead of answering the question. You sound
like a politician, and I've had enough of that for one week.

The answer to Carl's question is "no." I ride my bikes, I never
bother to inspect the spokes and I haven't broken a spoke in 50,000 to
60,000 miles of riding, racing, light touring and cyclo-cross. Of
course I built those wheels using a method of wheelbuilding that
mr. beam is attempting to discredit by misleading analogies and such;
I suppose you have to resort to that sort of thing when you can't
produce facts that are contradictory.

The last spoke I broke was in about 1994 on a group training ride;
rather embarassing for the guy who built the wheel, as he was along
for the ride. It was an Asahi 14g spoke, on the non-drive side of a 7
sp wheel spaced at 126 mm; Sun rim, Avocet Model III hub (Campy copy).
Hmm, correction, the last spokes I broke were in an 18" wheel built on
an SRAM 3x7 hub in a folding bike (Birdy, which was infamous for
broken spokes for a couple of years). I rebuilt the wheel in 1999 or
2000 and no broken spokes since, but that bike doesn't see many miles.
 




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