#41
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Bottle holder
On 5/21/2019 8:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 22 May 2019 06:26:45 +0700, John B. wrote: please awaken us and tell us exactly what "machine shop" features one requires to drill holes in a thin tube? Probably a V-block and a drill press. I have several of these: https://www.eastwood.com/drill-press-v-block-fixture-center-it.html More of the same: https://www.google.com/search?q=v+block&tbm=isch Add a proper installation tool: https://www.amazon.com/RZX-Riveter-Riveting-Setting-mandrels/dp/B07P7M4BKF/ Also, I suppose a sharp drill bit, which only seems to be found in a machine shop, would be useful. In theory for a raw tube, yes. In practice for a tube already inside a bicycle frame the fixture has a V bottom with a drill guide centered on top. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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#42
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Bottle holder
On 5/21/2019 5:56 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2019 10:26:46 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/21/2019 10:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip $12 for two straps? That seems rather expensive. It is. But a kluge of cable ties and associated bits and pieces is not going to work as well and by the time you buy all the parts you'll spend more time cobbling it together. There are also the Zefal Gizmo clamps https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MSM1O1H and the Topeak Versa Mount https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077S5G4SL. Above all, don't use hose clamps! And don't drill holes in the frame for Rivnuts. Why ever not? Can you supply us with any evidence that installing a rivnut, or two, significantly weakens a frame? All the major manufacturers that have lifetime frame warranties void the warranty if you alter the frame by drilling holes in it. But a properly drilled hole does not significantly weaken a frame, and frame manufacturers drill these holes all the time. It's improperly drilled holes with stress risers and micro-cracks that are the issue, especially in aluminum. Additionally, drilling can be difficult in a frame with tight clearance, you may need to buy a right angle drill. Of course you don't need to install your own Rivnuts in order to have a cracking problem, Cannondale used to be nicknaled "Crackendale" for their frame cracks around the Rivnuts that held on the front derailleur. Just buy some of these clamps https://www.merlincycles.com/dmr-hinged-clamp-65637.html or one of the many other devices designed specifically for this issue. |
#43
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Bottle holder
On Wednesday, May 22, 2019 at 8:41:14 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/21/2019 5:56 PM, John B. wrote: On Tue, 21 May 2019 10:26:46 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/21/2019 10:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip $12 for two straps? That seems rather expensive. It is. But a kluge of cable ties and associated bits and pieces is not going to work as well and by the time you buy all the parts you'll spend more time cobbling it together. There are also the Zefal Gizmo clamps https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MSM1O1H and the Topeak Versa Mount https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077S5G4SL. Above all, don't use hose clamps! And don't drill holes in the frame for Rivnuts. Why ever not? Can you supply us with any evidence that installing a rivnut, or two, significantly weakens a frame? All the major manufacturers that have lifetime frame warranties void the warranty if you alter the frame by drilling holes in it. But a properly drilled hole does not significantly weaken a frame, and frame manufacturers drill these holes all the time. It's improperly drilled holes with stress risers and micro-cracks that are the issue, especially in aluminum. Additionally, drilling can be difficult in a frame with tight clearance, you may need to buy a right angle drill. Of course you don't need to install your own Rivnuts in order to have a cracking problem, Cannondale used to be nicknaled "Crackendale" for their frame cracks around the Rivnuts that held on the front derailleur. Just buy some of these clamps https://www.merlincycles.com/dmr-hinged-clamp-65637.html or one of the many other devices designed specifically for this issue. EL TORO POO POO! Almost anyone perhaps with the exception of yourself can drill a couple of holes into either an aluminium alloy or steel alloy bicycle frame and install a pair of rivnuts and do so without using any special equipment to do so. Btw, rivnuts can be installed with a long bolt with a nut threaded onto it and the bolt then threaded into the rivnut and tightened.. The bolt is usually a hex socket head and the tool to thread the bolt into the rivnut is a simple Allen key. The bolt gets inserted well into the rivnut, the nut gets turned with a wrench and the rivnut expands and compresses inside the bicycle tube. Simple and quick. Btw, many people who install their own rivnuts then tour thousands of miles in places like Patagonia without having any problems with the rivnuts whatsoever. Cheers |
#44
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Bottle holder
On Wed, 22 May 2019 17:41:09 -0700, sms
wrote: On 5/21/2019 5:56 PM, John B. wrote: On Tue, 21 May 2019 10:26:46 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/21/2019 10:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip $12 for two straps? That seems rather expensive. It is. But a kluge of cable ties and associated bits and pieces is not going to work as well and by the time you buy all the parts you'll spend more time cobbling it together. There are also the Zefal Gizmo clamps https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MSM1O1H and the Topeak Versa Mount https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077S5G4SL. Above all, don't use hose clamps! And don't drill holes in the frame for Rivnuts. Why ever not? Can you supply us with any evidence that installing a rivnut, or two, significantly weakens a frame? All the major manufacturers that have lifetime frame warranties void the warranty if you alter the frame by drilling holes in it. What kind of crappy frames are you buying that you need a warrantee? Or perhaps, what kind of an awful rider are you that you feel that you break frames? I ask as I now have three bikes (I gave the fourth away) one of which I built from raw tubes and two that I bought used and refurbished. The "home built" frame is about 12 years old and the two (I call them classics) are 20 - 30 years old. None of them has broken, bent or cracked. The one I gave away was only about 10 years old but still working fine. One can only assume that you buy cheap junk that breaks a lot. But a properly drilled hole does not significantly weaken a frame, and frame manufacturers drill these holes all the time. It's improperly drilled holes with stress risers and micro-cracks that are the issue, especially in aluminum. Additionally, drilling can be difficult in a frame with tight clearance, you may need to buy a right angle drill. How does one make an improperly drilled hole? Especially one with abnormal "stress risers" and micro-cracks? I ask as I successfully completed my apprenticeship as a journeyman machinist in 1950, which gives me what? Nearly 70 years of experience in drilling holes. And your experience in the hole making business is? Of course you don't need to install your own Rivnuts in order to have a cracking problem, Cannondale used to be nicknaled "Crackendale" for their frame cracks around the Rivnuts that held on the front derailleur. Strange you know? Rivnuts were originally made to use on aircraft - to mount the de-icer boots on the leading edge of aircraft wings - (let me point out here that the leading edge of an aircraft wing is the most sensitive portion of the wing and any loose and flapping de-icer boot would destroy a major portion of the lift on that side of the airplane ) and have been used on aircraft for about 70 years. Isn't it strange that there aren't any airplanes (made from aluminum, you know) that crack excessively because rivnuts are used. Are you sure that the rivnuts were at fault? Just buy some of these clamps https://www.merlincycles.com/dmr-hinged-clamp-65637.html or one of the many other devices designed specifically for this issue. Oh! Are you selling clamps to mount bottle cages now? Or do you get your kickback from simply referencing the web site these days? -- Cheers, John B. |
#45
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Bottle holder
On Wed, 22 May 2019 19:17:28 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: On Wednesday, May 22, 2019 at 8:41:14 PM UTC-4, sms wrote: On 5/21/2019 5:56 PM, John B. wrote: On Tue, 21 May 2019 10:26:46 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/21/2019 10:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip $12 for two straps? That seems rather expensive. It is. But a kluge of cable ties and associated bits and pieces is not going to work as well and by the time you buy all the parts you'll spend more time cobbling it together. There are also the Zefal Gizmo clamps https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MSM1O1H and the Topeak Versa Mount https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077S5G4SL. Above all, don't use hose clamps! And don't drill holes in the frame for Rivnuts. Why ever not? Can you supply us with any evidence that installing a rivnut, or two, significantly weakens a frame? All the major manufacturers that have lifetime frame warranties void the warranty if you alter the frame by drilling holes in it. But a properly drilled hole does not significantly weaken a frame, and frame manufacturers drill these holes all the time. It's improperly drilled holes with stress risers and micro-cracks that are the issue, especially in aluminum. Additionally, drilling can be difficult in a frame with tight clearance, you may need to buy a right angle drill. Of course you don't need to install your own Rivnuts in order to have a cracking problem, Cannondale used to be nicknaled "Crackendale" for their frame cracks around the Rivnuts that held on the front derailleur. Just buy some of these clamps https://www.merlincycles.com/dmr-hinged-clamp-65637.html or one of the many other devices designed specifically for this issue. EL TORO POO POO! Almost anyone perhaps with the exception of yourself can drill a couple of holes into either an aluminium alloy or steel alloy bicycle frame and install a pair of rivnuts and do so without using any special equipment to do so. Btw, rivnuts can be installed with a long bolt with a nut threaded onto it and the bolt then threaded into the rivnut and tightened. The bolt is usually a hex socket head and the tool to thread the bolt into the rivnut is a simple Allen key. The bolt gets inserted well into the rivnut, the nut gets turned with a wrench and the rivnut expands and compresses inside the bicycle tube. Simple and quick. Btw, many people who install their own rivnuts then tour thousands of miles in places like Patagonia without having any problems with the rivnuts whatsoever. Cheers Ah, but those blokes down there in Patagonia aren't trying to convince you to buy a clamp so that they can get a commission on the sale :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#46
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Bottle holder
On Wed, 22 May 2019 09:36:15 +0700, John B.
wrote: One can only assume that some of our illustrious readers are somewhat accident prone :-) Or perhaps they don't know how to cut the excess strap off. -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/ |
#47
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Bottle holder
On 5/22/2019 7:42 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
snip What kind of crappy frames are you buying that you need a warrantee? Or perhaps, what kind of an awful rider are you that you feel that you break frames? I've never broken a frame. But most of my frames are steel. Jay has replaced his high-end lifetime Cannondale frame multiple times under warranty. The fact is that if you keep your bicycles for a long time, you're likely to experience a frame failure at some point in time, especially with aluminum or carbon fiber. You definitely don't want to void the warranty for such a ridiculous reason. snip How does one make an improperly drilled hole? Especially one with abnormal "stress risers" and micro-cracks? I ask as I successfully completed my apprenticeship as a journeyman machinist in 1950, which gives me what? Nearly 70 years of experience in drilling holes. Yes, as a journeyman machinist you should have no issue with properly drilling holes. Surely they taught you about stress concentration when drilling holes and how to increase fatigue life. snip Oh! Are you selling clamps to mount bottle cages now? Or do you get your kickback from simply referencing the web site these days? You might want to consider carefully how such ridiculous statements reflect on you. |
#48
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Bottle holder
On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
snip Ok, I yield. A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle frame. I tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill press or milling machine. As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on an a frame. Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/ snip Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight and to prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame. Also to achieve proper spacing. You could use this on a finished frame with a right-angle drill. One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was difficult to align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit tended to drift around the tube. Even after I created a small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger drill bit shifted to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was bolted in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned along its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by much, but it tweaked the alignment ever so slightly and caused the cage to twist." Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to ensure that you seal everything so moisture can't get in since you won't be painting the frame afterward. |
#49
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Bottle holder
On Wednesday, May 22, 2019 at 11:56:09 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip Ok, I yield. A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle frame. I tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill press or milling machine. As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on an a frame. Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/ snip Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight and to prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't want to use a center punch on an aluminum frame. Also to achieve proper spacing. You could use this on a finished frame with a right-angle drill. One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was difficult to align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit tended to drift around the tube. Even after I created a small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger drill bit shifted to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was bolted in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned along its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by much, but it tweaked the alignment ever so slightly and caused the cage to twist." Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to ensure that you seal everything so moisture can't get in since you won't be painting the frame afterward. Yet more horse hockey! You can very easily and SAFELY tap a pilot dimple into an aluminium frame tube before you start drilling a hole. Good grief SMS! It's NOT nearly as difficult a job to SAFELY install a rivnut as you make it out to be. Cheers |
#50
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Bottle holder
On Thu, 23 May 2019 10:43:29 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote: I would have to say, "But Why?" 1. With a drill guide, there's no need to center punch the frame tube or drill a pilot hole. Just clamp the jig to the tube, and drill. 2. Even with a pilot hole, keeping the drill bit from wandering is not easy. I'm rather bad at eyeballing an electric hand drill so that the bit is exactly perpendicular to the tube. 3. Because it's possible to do the drilling in my sleep, which is likely to be the case. 4. With an fully assembled bicycle (or frame), an off center hole, bad spacing between the Rivnuts, slip of the drill, or other alignment error, and much of the bicycle might be considered scrap metal. Best to build a proper jig and do it perfectly the first time. 5. Chances are good that one might be drilling holes in other frames for Rivnuts. It would therefore pay to build a jig to make it easier. After all it is only two holes about 7 cm apart. It is not, as they say, "Rocket Science". Not everyone has a machine shop or a machinists skills. Backyard mechanics are not known for their precision drilling. Best to give them a mechanical assist (i.e. a jig). Why not just mark the spot(s) for the holes on the frame and than just drill the holes? Even, if necessary, ding a bit of a mark on the tube with a center punch - I say that with a certain amount of caution, as I don't mean Whap It!, just a tiny little dimple, just enough to get the drill started. Then drill a pilot hole with, maybe a 1/16" drill, to make sure that the full size drill doesn't wander off the mark. Than just drill it. Sounds good, which brings me back to the previous problem. How is one going to rigidly clamp the frame to be able to drill the holes? However, that's now where the aforementioned procedure is going to screw up. What will happen is that both the center punch mark and pilot hole will probably be perfectly placed. What will fail is that the actual Rivnut hole drill will wander sideways if the drill is not perfectly perpendicular to the tubing. The drill needs some kind of clamping jig to keep it perpendicular. If it can't be done on a drill press or mill, then clamping a v-block and drill guide to the tube is a good substitute. You don't even have to be terribly accurate as all the bottle cages I've seen have at least one of the mounting holes elongated to fit even if the mounting holes in the frame aren't perfectly spaced. Remind me not to let you work on any of my bicycles. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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