Bottle holder

On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 7:49:03 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/23/2019 4:09 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:58:59 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 3:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip.

Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it
is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it
will be water proof?

Rivnuts routinely become loose, even when installed at the factory. Some
sort of sealant, or paint, should be used to fill the gaps that will exist.

Hmm... I would suggest that you simply don't know what you are talking
about as I've worked on DC-3's that wee originally built in the 1930's
and there was no evidence of the de-icer boots, held on by rivnuts,
coming loose.

Geez, just read various forums about Rivnuts on coming loose and
spinning. Or rattling. It's extremely common. This is unrelated to 1930
prop planes.

Regarding improperly drilled holes, as Mike Jacubowsky, owner of Chain
Reaction Bicycles in Redwood City, CA stated: "Of course, if you're not
careful with the rivnut installion (for example, a jagged-edged hole),
this too can cause frame failure" but he was referring to thin-wall
steel tubes. I suppose that one advantage of aluminum frames is that the
tubes have to be thicker to compensate for the lower strength of aluminum.

No the walls of aluminium bicycle tubes do NOT have to be thicker than steel tube walls. The strength of aluminium bicycle tubes is increased by making the DIAMETER of the TUBE bigger NOT the wall thickness.

Do you know ANYTHING at all about stuff you post about? From most of your posts it seems not.

Cheers

On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 7:51:03 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/23/2019 8:52 AM, Duane wrote:

snip

Much simpler to just make sure the bike has a couple of water bottle
mounts when you buy it...

True, but the original poster bought a very inexpensive Huffy, likely at
Walmart. On these bikes they don't have the factory include such
expensive luxuries as bottle mounts.

Now he has to choose from one of many choices:

1. Buy a jig for $50 or so, buy a right-angle drill or close-quarters
drill (or a right angle adapter), buy some Rivnuts, buy some paint, and
install bottle mounts directly into the frame. Perhaps drill a drain
hole in the bottom bracket.

2. Build a jig or try to drill accurate holes free-hand without a jig,
buy some Rivnuts, buy some paint, and install bottle mounts directly
into the frame. Perhaps drill a drain hole in the bottom bracket.

3. Use a kluge like hose clamps or cable ties.

4. Buy an accessory that creates water bottle bosses with clamps or
straps that go around the frame tube.

5. Use a handlebar or seat bottle cage mount.

Most people would choose 4 or 5. It would be $5-12 well spent. Most
people would agree with the experts and understand that drilling holes
in their frame is a not a great idea. As Jobst Brandt stated: "I don't
know many riders who believe that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a
reasonable concept.", though on a sub-$100 bicycle it's probably no big
deal to destroy the frame if you screw up, and you could always use a
clamp that covers up the hole..

6. Drill two holes and install a Rivnut in each hole.

Cheers

On 5/23/2019 7:48 PM, sms wrote:
On 5/23/2019 4:09 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:58:59 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 3:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip.

Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it
is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it
will be water proof?

Rivnuts routinely become loose, even when installed at the factory. Some
sort of sealant, or paint, should be used to fill the gaps that will
exist.

Hmm... I would suggest that you simply don't know what you are talking
about as I've worked on DC-3's that wee originally built in the 1930's
and there was no evidence of the de-icer boots, held on by rivnuts,
coming loose.

Geez, just read various forums about Rivnuts on coming loose and
spinning. Or rattling. It's extremely common. This is unrelated to 1930
prop planes.

I'm sure if you search "various forums" you can find incidents of every
imaginable problem on earth. But what you were warning about was frame
failures from amateur Rivnut installations. Do you have examples of
that? If so, where are the links?

Regarding improperly drilled holes, as Mike Jacubowsky, owner of Chain
Reaction Bicycles in Redwood City, CA stated: "Of course, if you're not
careful with the rivnut installion (for example, a jagged-edged hole),
this too can cause frame failure" but he was referring to thin-wall
steel tubes. I suppose that one advantage of aluminum frames is that the
tubes have to be thicker to compensate for the lower strength of aluminum.

And in most cases, the solution to "if you're not careful" problems is
easy: Be careful.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 5/23/2019 7:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/23/2019 6:04 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:56:28 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 3:34 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

No, sorry, they didn't teach us about stress concentrations when
drilling holes, primarily because any hole is a stress concentration,
at least to some extent. And it is illogical to think that one can
change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some special manner.

It is not illogical at all. It is a fact. There is just no way that any
course in machining would not teach about how to reduce stress
concentration of holes drilled into metal. You might want to ask for a
partial refund if that school is still in existence.

Well, I can only comment that in my career I drilled holes in just
about everything that flew and much of that was specified in either
manufacturer's designs and/or specifications from people who had been
assigned to design and document a modification and I cannot remember
ever seeing any specifications, or directions, or other data intended
to tell me how to change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some
specific manner.

So kindly teach me. But before you get off your podium please remember
that we are not talking about designing a hole, or placing a hole or
any other fuzzy example that you may care to elaborate on. We are
discussing the drilling, or boring of a cylindrical passageway through
a base material.

We just had a spectacular example of the result of improper drilling of
holes in steel beams in San Francisco, but these were not drilled by
journeyman machinists.

I assume that you are referring to the following
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investiga...494862071.html


If so than once again you demonstrate that you simply do not know what
you are talking about and apparently haven't even bothered to take the
time to "read up" on what you are trying to say.

The "holes you are talking about aren't drilled, i.e. cylindrical,
holes but are , apparently, cut "holes" as described in the article,
that you obviously didn't read, which says, "It's not a good
structural element, says mechanical engineer Bernard Cuzzillo,
referring to rectangular notches clearly cut in the four-inch thick
steel at the bottom of the 85-foot long I-beam used to support the
terminal deck across Fremont Street.

Please note, "RECTANGULAR NOTCHES" not drilled holes.
Unless, of course, you anticipate cutting rectangular holes to install
the cylindrical revnuts.

For God's Sake! They even had a video that clearly showed the cut,
angular, holes... and you didn't even bother to watch the movie.


Square apertures like a DeHavilland Comet? What could go wrong?

My thoughts exactly! I learned about those incidents many, many years
ago from a British engineer I used to work with.

For Mr. Scharf: A major part of the solution was to change the shape of
the holes for the plane's windows. Instead of rectangles, they switched
to a shape that was more round.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:18:52 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 3:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

But before you start telling tall tales you should realize that when
the hole is drilled it removes not only the center punch indentation
itself but considerable (in reference to the size of the center punch
dimple) material around the indentation.

It is not the issue of the punch indentation remaining, it's the issue
of using a spring-loaded punch on thin metal. But you probably wouldn't
want to do this on very thin steel either.

Errr... A center punch isn't a spring-loaded thing. At least not to
those "in the know". See:
https://th.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detai...SAAEgK2uvD_BwE
https://www.google.com/search?q=cent...nMQsAR6BAgIEAE

That is not to say that there isn't such a thing as a spring-loaded
center punch but only for amateurs. You see when one uses a
conventional center punch, the kind that is hit with a hammer, one can
easily vary the force of the blow which is very likely to be very
light when center-punching thin sheet metal and much harder when
center-punching a huge block of steel.

Just one of the myriad things one learns when one is trained in the
trade :-)



Bottom line is that as Jobst said, "I don't know many riders who believe
that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept. I assume
the rivnut was securely tightened and painted to prevent motion,
corrosion and water intrusion."

Yes, I've heard that before - "Jobst said". But Jobst said many
things. I remember a discussion where he said that the "quick link"
that some makers sell for derailer bicycle chains required a special
tool to install or remove one. And even after several people had
informed him that they were using them without any special tools,
except our fingers, he still insisted that a special tool was
necessary. No Sir! Couldn't be done without the special tool!

There's no reason to start drilling holes in a perfectly good frame. It
sucks that the manufacturer didn't provide the bottle cage mounts at the
time the frame was fabricated but there are many better ways of
achieving the desired result of adding a bottle holder.

There is? Oh Yes! I forget! One buys a special gizmo from a site that
pays SMS 2% (was it) for recommending them.

--

Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 23 May 2019 09:06:57 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 10:18:56 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/23/2019 3:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

But before you start telling tall tales you should realize that when
the hole is drilled it removes not only the center punch indentation
itself but considerable (in reference to the size of the center punch
dimple) material around the indentation.

It is not the issue of the punch indentation remaining, it's the issue
of using a spring-loaded punch on thin metal. But you probably wouldn't
want to do this on very thin steel either.

Bottom line is that as Jobst said, "I don't know many riders who believe
that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept. I assume
the rivnut was securely tightened and painted to prevent motion,
corrosion and water intrusion."

There's no reason to start drilling holes in a perfectly good frame. It
sucks that the manufacturer didn't provide the bottle cage mounts at the
time the frame was fabricated but there are many better ways of
achieving the desired result of adding a bottle holder.

BULL****! Rivnuts are one of the simplest most elegant ways of adding mounts for bottle cages there is. Once installed a Rivnut looks just like a factory installation or even a brazed on bottle fitting. I can only assume from your posts that you do NOT know how to drill a simple hole in a bicycle tube nor do you know how easy it is to install a Rivnut in a hole in a bicycle tube.

Cheers

Ah but the fact that one doesn't know what he/she/it (political
correctness) is talking about never precluded a politician from
pontificating.

(pontificating - Talk in a dogmatic and pompous manner)
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 23 May 2019 11:10:50 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 1:16 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2019 21:21:12 -0400, Joy Beeson
wrote:

I'm puzzled by the comment that one could cut oneself on the metal
strap. I've been scratched by various bike parts, but the hose clamps
have never even thought about it.

That would be me. What I did was cut off the loose end of the metal
strap flush with the hole clamp body. The down tube paint was
protected by a strip of hard rubber. Over a few months, the clamp and
rubber strip decided to move. So I tightened the screw on the clamp,
which then exposed the end of the metal strap from the clamp body. I
had previously rounded the sharp corners, but did not deburr the cut
end. The result was a rather messy, but fortunately not very deep,
slice in my leg when I performed an unscheduled and graceless
dismount. I cut the metal strap shorter to avoid a repeat
performance, but did nothing with the exposed hex screw head, which
produced a minor gouge in the same place on my leg about a year later.

Sorry to jump context, but both of those boo-boos would have been
registered in the Portland study of bike commuters, Hoffman et. al.,
"Bicycle Commuter Injury Prevention," Journal of Trauma, V. 69 No. 5

They took great pains to record _every_ injury, no matter how tiny, and
used the results to say we need bike lanes everywhere.

IOW: Scratched by your hose clamp? Oh, if only there were a bike lane!!!

Back to the topic: I'm a big fan of deburring sharp edges. It takes only
a few seconds with a fine grinding wheel or a hand file.

Actually if one selects the proper size hose clamp there shouldn't be
any "long end sticking out". and they do come in different sizes :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 23 May 2019 18:15:15 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/23/2019 5:29 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 07:55:42 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/23/2019 5:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 22 May 2019 20:56:05 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Ok, I yield. A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle frame. I
tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill press or milling
machine. As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on an a frame.
Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig
https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/

snip

Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight and to
prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't want to use a center
punch on an aluminum frame. Also to achieve proper spacing. You could
use this on a finished frame with a right-angle drill.

I keep promising myself that I will ignore you but you keep coming up
with increasingly stupid statements.

Tell us, oh great pundit, why shouldn't one use a center punch on an
aluminum frame?

But before you start telling tall tales you should realize that when
the hole is drilled it removes not only the center punch indentation
itself but considerable (in reference to the size of the center punch
dimple) material around the indentation.


One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was difficult to
align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit tended to drift around the
tube. Even after I created a small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger
drill bit shifted to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was
bolted in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned along
its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by much, but it tweaked
the alignment ever so slightly and caused the cage to twist."

Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to ensure that you
seal everything so moisture can't get in since you won't be painting the
frame afterward.

Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it
is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it
will be water proof?

Like door panels in cars, water always gets in. The key
point of design is to vent the piece with drainhole(s).

Hmm... luckily you don't build boats :-)


No bilge pump on a bicycle.

I was referring to your statement "vent the piece with drainhole(s)"
:-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 23 May 2019 18:17:29 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 5/23/2019 6:04 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:56:28 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 3:34 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

No, sorry, they didn't teach us about stress concentrations when
drilling holes, primarily because any hole is a stress concentration,
at least to some extent. And it is illogical to think that one can
change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some special manner.

It is not illogical at all. It is a fact. There is just no way that any
course in machining would not teach about how to reduce stress
concentration of holes drilled into metal. You might want to ask for a
partial refund if that school is still in existence.

Well, I can only comment that in my career I drilled holes in just
about everything that flew and much of that was specified in either
manufacturer's designs and/or specifications from people who had been
assigned to design and document a modification and I cannot remember
ever seeing any specifications, or directions, or other data intended
to tell me how to change "fatigue life" by drilling a hole in some
specific manner.

So kindly teach me. But before you get off your podium please remember
that we are not talking about designing a hole, or placing a hole or
any other fuzzy example that you may care to elaborate on. We are
discussing the drilling, or boring of a cylindrical passageway through
a base material.

We just had a spectacular example of the result of improper drilling of
holes in steel beams in San Francisco, but these were not drilled by
journeyman machinists.

I assume that you are referring to the following
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investiga...494862071.html

If so than once again you demonstrate that you simply do not know what
you are talking about and apparently haven't even bothered to take the
time to "read up" on what you are trying to say.

The "holes you are talking about aren't drilled, i.e. cylindrical,
holes but are , apparently, cut "holes" as described in the article,
that you obviously didn't read, which says, "It's not a good
structural element, says mechanical engineer Bernard Cuzzillo,
referring to rectangular notches clearly cut in the four-inch thick
steel at the bottom of the 85-foot long I-beam used to support the
terminal deck across Fremont Street.

Please note, "RECTANGULAR NOTCHES" not drilled holes.
Unless, of course, you anticipate cutting rectangular holes to install
the cylindrical revnuts.

For God's Sake! They even had a video that clearly showed the cut,
angular, holes... and you didn't even bother to watch the movie.


Square apertures like a DeHavilland Comet? What could go wrong?

I'm working from memory now (an always hazardous undertaking) but I
think that the problem with the Comet wasn't so much the window shape
so much as the fuselage expanding and contracting when pressurized.
Apparently that had never been a problem with previous aircraft.

After all, more modern airplanes have essentially square windows :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 23 May 2019 16:48:58 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 4:09 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 06:58:59 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/23/2019 3:45 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip.

Goodness. Here is a thing that is literally riveted (which is why it
is called a "riv(et) nut") into the bike frame. You don't think it
will be water proof?

Rivnuts routinely become loose, even when installed at the factory. Some
sort of sealant, or paint, should be used to fill the gaps that will exist.

Hmm... I would suggest that you simply don't know what you are talking
about as I've worked on DC-3's that wee originally built in the 1930's
and there was no evidence of the de-icer boots, held on by rivnuts,
coming loose.

Geez, just read various forums about Rivnuts on coming loose and
spinning. Or rattling. It's extremely common. This is unrelated to 1930
prop planes.

And why not? After all an airplane vibrates and shakes far more than a
bicycle. One would think if the problem was the rivnut itself, as you
seem to think, it would fail under the far greater stresses and
strains of the aircraft.

Regarding improperly drilled holes, as Mike Jacubowsky, owner of Chain
Reaction Bicycles in Redwood City, CA stated: "Of course, if you're not
careful with the rivnut installion (for example, a jagged-edged holeMike Jacubowsky),
this too can cause frame failure" but he was referring to thin-wall
steel tubes. I suppose that one advantage of aluminum frames is that the
tubes have to be thicker to compensate for the lower strength of aluminum.

Well, if one continues to listen to folks who apparently do sloppy
work than one should be prepared for failures.

Frankly, I have no knowledge of Mike Jacubowsky but tell us is he a
trained metal worker? A trained engineer? Or just someone that is
talking. Has he installed a number of rivnuts "a jagged-edged hole"
and observed the results? And if he has how can you listen to someone
that does such poor work?
--

Cheers,

John B.