Gatorskins: Joerg Wins!

On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:36:11 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-27 19:20, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 12:58:43 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-26 10:29, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2017 at 8:02:54 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-25 14:47, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 11:25:56 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot
wrote:
On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 11:30:36 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-22 19:50, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 2:20:34 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
Did you try all the usual tricks for getting the bead
over the rim, counsel? Did you push the valve stem up
into the tire? Did you try pushing the bead on the
opposite side over as far as possible toward the side you
were trying to mount, in order to create more clearance
to get the bead over the rim? Did you look all around
the perimeter of the tire, trying to find places where
the tube was caught under the bead? A little silicone
spray on the bead, maybe?

Occasionally I've bought tires that were extremely tight,
but I've always been able to mount them by using these
techniques. I'd much rather have a tight tire than one
that is too loose.

Good luck from your fellow pettifogger.

I did the basics and didn't spend much time trying. It was
so far off that I just grabbed another tire and got going.
I'll try again later.


Eventually you'll get it on. Push the 2nd bead as far you
can, secure it in that "95% position" with two tire levers,
then leave overnight. The stress seems to stretch it a wee
bit. In the morning it'll "only" be 15-20 minutes more. What
also helps if you must get it on same day is to squeeze
high-quality tire levers between bead and rim wall right up
to where it crosses over. Then rotate these levers back and
forth 10-20 degrees while pushing. Dunk the lever tips in
soap before. The levers will suffer a lot and I broke one
from an expensive set.

The feeling in my right thumb and middle finger tips still
hasn't come back after the last one a couple months ago but
who knows, those could also be carpal tunnel symptoms. It
just happened right after mounting my last Gatorksin. And
that will be my last Gatorskin. Sad because they gave me
2500mi per rear tire. Unless the side wall failed
beforehand.

I switched to CST Conquistare. Still under 400mi so I can't
say how many miles they will last. The side walls sure are a
lot better than on the Gatorskin. I have done my usual rides
which include rough gravel and some offroad sections, zero
visible damage. By that time Gatorskins already had li'l
flaps, skin tags, frayed fibers and so on.

If the CST lasts only 1500-2000mi it'll be ok as long as the
price is low enough for such a short life. I got it for $15.
Main thing is, I can get it onto the rim in minutes.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I refuse to use a tire that's that hard to mount. What do you
do if you get a flat out on the road? Do you camp overnight so
that the tire can stretch again after repairing or replacing
the tube?

Cheers

Exactly. I'll just use the tire as a rear, which is built on a
Velocity Touring Disc rim -- a simple, discontinued rim with a
deeper well that works with any and all tires. The CR18 is an
el-cheapo rim I bought as a quick replacement for my front dyno
wheel. It's an '80s design throw-back.


You got a front dyno wheel in the US? Do you have a link? The ones
under $100 I've seen so far had rims that were too wide.

SMS could send you a pile of links. I built mine -- first with an
older beater MA3 which developed some spoke hole cracking not
withstanding my diligent tensioning to 100-110kgf (within factory
spec). I replaced it with a cheap and available CR18 from Universal.
The rim also fit my needs in terms of ERD. I would have purchased a
disc specific rim with a deeper section, but it would have meant
buying new spokes.


When it comes to wheels I am decadent and would like to buy a complete
wheel. I know I will have to increase the spoke tension as usual but
that's just 1/4 to 1/2 turn on each nipple. Spoking up and truing a
whole wheel is just not my thing.


BTW, I was rummaging around in my spoke box and found a bunch of
310mm from a 4X Weinmann Concave wheel I built in the late '70s.
Those are totally useless now. I could use them for shish kebab
skewers. I wish I had a Phil cutting/threading tool, but I could
never recoup the cost.


I wonder how that could work. On my road bike the spokes have 2.0mm
diameter and the threaded ends are thicker at 2.2mm.

On the rear I'd like to have something in the neigborhood of 3mm spoke
diameter. Or more.

I believe that the thickest "standard" spoke is a 13 (US/British)
gauge which is 2.3mm in diameter and I believe that most sports bikes
use double butted spokes, as you have. But it might be that "single
butted" spokes, i.e., 2.3mm the whole length are used on touring
bikes. I see DT Swiss straight 13 gauge spokes listed on e-bay but I
don't see them on DT Swiss's web pages although they do advertises a
single butted "Sapim Strong Single Butted Spoke" that measures 2.3mm
at the hub end and 2.0 at the threaded end. I've also seen galvanized
"electric bike" 13 gauge spokes advertised on e-bay.


You can buy complete wheels with 12 gauge spokes, like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Master-.../dp/B006FCHTZQ

But first I have to find out two things. The axle dimension (beats me
why they don't state that in the specs) and I also have to somehow get
out my BB because that's now shot as well. And before doing that I've
got to fix the rear end of my MTB so I will not be sans bike. Now I
understand why some folks have 5-6 bikes :-)


On the other hand Peter White ( www.peterwhitecycles.com ) will give a
lifetime guarantee on any wheel that he builds "according to his
recommendation". As he has been doing this for something like 30 years
I assume that he knows what he is doing.


He probably doesn't know where I am riding and with what sort of load :-)

I even broke spokes on bikes assembled and tuned by professionals. My
main concern is Murphy's law because it states that if there is a spoke
failure that is impossible to trim out well enough this will be at the
farthest point from home.

If you are worried about breaking drive side spokes in remote places
there are tools made to repair the problem. Of course, one has to
actually purchase and carry these tools for them to be of any use.

An alternate is the flexible spokes made from the same material as
bullet proof vests that can be installed without removing the
cassette.

Peter White goes on at some length about bicycle wheels and riders,
but essentially he says:

"If wheels are properly built, they will need little if any truing
ever. The rim or hub should fail before the spokes. My guarantee
covers spoke breakage and truing. If you buy a wheel from me that I
recommend for you, and a spoke ever breaks that hasn't been obviously
impacted and damaged by jamming the chain between the cassette cogs
and the spokes or getting a foreign object caught in the spokes, I
will replace that spoke free of charge, while you wait. If that wheel
ever needs truing, I will true it while you wait, free of charge."

Note the part that says "If you buy a wheel from me that I recommend
for you".

Since he has been in business for about 30 years it seems likely that
he stands behind his guarantee.

Oh, yes. I found a source of 12 gauge spokes. It seems that Huffy
sells them. See:
http://www.huskybicycles.com/mm5/mer...ory_Co de=12G

But a quick look at the Internet finds quite a number of sites that
talk about loaded touring, in one case the writer refers to 12,000
miles of loaded touring on a set of wheels. In fact he talks about the
hub bearing wearing out first.

It is obvious that people are out there doing it and wheels are being
made for such use.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 7:44:47 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:36:11 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-27 19:20, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 27 Mar 2017 12:58:43 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-26 10:29, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2017 at 8:02:54 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-25 14:47, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 11:25:56 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot
wrote:
On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 11:30:36 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-22 19:50, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 2:20:34 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
Did you try all the usual tricks for getting the bead
over the rim, counsel? Did you push the valve stem up
into the tire? Did you try pushing the bead on the
opposite side over as far as possible toward the side you
were trying to mount, in order to create more clearance
to get the bead over the rim? Did you look all around
the perimeter of the tire, trying to find places where
the tube was caught under the bead? A little silicone
spray on the bead, maybe?

Occasionally I've bought tires that were extremely tight,
but I've always been able to mount them by using these
techniques. I'd much rather have a tight tire than one
that is too loose.

Good luck from your fellow pettifogger.

I did the basics and didn't spend much time trying. It was
so far off that I just grabbed another tire and got going.
I'll try again later.


Eventually you'll get it on. Push the 2nd bead as far you
can, secure it in that "95% position" with two tire levers,
then leave overnight. The stress seems to stretch it a wee
bit. In the morning it'll "only" be 15-20 minutes more. What
also helps if you must get it on same day is to squeeze
high-quality tire levers between bead and rim wall right up
to where it crosses over. Then rotate these levers back and
forth 10-20 degrees while pushing. Dunk the lever tips in
soap before. The levers will suffer a lot and I broke one
from an expensive set.

The feeling in my right thumb and middle finger tips still
hasn't come back after the last one a couple months ago but
who knows, those could also be carpal tunnel symptoms. It
just happened right after mounting my last Gatorksin. And
that will be my last Gatorskin. Sad because they gave me
2500mi per rear tire. Unless the side wall failed
beforehand.

I switched to CST Conquistare. Still under 400mi so I can't
say how many miles they will last. The side walls sure are a
lot better than on the Gatorskin. I have done my usual rides
which include rough gravel and some offroad sections, zero
visible damage. By that time Gatorskins already had li'l
flaps, skin tags, frayed fibers and so on.

If the CST lasts only 1500-2000mi it'll be ok as long as the
price is low enough for such a short life. I got it for $15.
Main thing is, I can get it onto the rim in minutes.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I refuse to use a tire that's that hard to mount. What do you
do if you get a flat out on the road? Do you camp overnight so
that the tire can stretch again after repairing or replacing
the tube?

Cheers

Exactly. I'll just use the tire as a rear, which is built on a
Velocity Touring Disc rim -- a simple, discontinued rim with a
deeper well that works with any and all tires. The CR18 is an
el-cheapo rim I bought as a quick replacement for my front dyno
wheel. It's an '80s design throw-back.


You got a front dyno wheel in the US? Do you have a link? The ones
under $100 I've seen so far had rims that were too wide.

SMS could send you a pile of links. I built mine -- first with an
older beater MA3 which developed some spoke hole cracking not
withstanding my diligent tensioning to 100-110kgf (within factory
spec). I replaced it with a cheap and available CR18 from Universal.
The rim also fit my needs in terms of ERD. I would have purchased a
disc specific rim with a deeper section, but it would have meant
buying new spokes.


When it comes to wheels I am decadent and would like to buy a complete
wheel. I know I will have to increase the spoke tension as usual but
that's just 1/4 to 1/2 turn on each nipple. Spoking up and truing a
whole wheel is just not my thing.


BTW, I was rummaging around in my spoke box and found a bunch of
310mm from a 4X Weinmann Concave wheel I built in the late '70s.
Those are totally useless now. I could use them for shish kebab
skewers. I wish I had a Phil cutting/threading tool, but I could
never recoup the cost.


I wonder how that could work. On my road bike the spokes have 2.0mm
diameter and the threaded ends are thicker at 2.2mm.

On the rear I'd like to have something in the neigborhood of 3mm spoke
diameter. Or more.

I believe that the thickest "standard" spoke is a 13 (US/British)
gauge which is 2.3mm in diameter and I believe that most sports bikes
use double butted spokes, as you have. But it might be that "single
butted" spokes, i.e., 2.3mm the whole length are used on touring
bikes. I see DT Swiss straight 13 gauge spokes listed on e-bay but I
don't see them on DT Swiss's web pages although they do advertises a
single butted "Sapim Strong Single Butted Spoke" that measures 2.3mm
at the hub end and 2.0 at the threaded end. I've also seen galvanized
"electric bike" 13 gauge spokes advertised on e-bay.


You can buy complete wheels with 12 gauge spokes, like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Master-.../dp/B006FCHTZQ

But first I have to find out two things. The axle dimension (beats me
why they don't state that in the specs) and I also have to somehow get
out my BB because that's now shot as well. And before doing that I've
got to fix the rear end of my MTB so I will not be sans bike. Now I
understand why some folks have 5-6 bikes :-)


On the other hand Peter White ( www.peterwhitecycles.com ) will give a
lifetime guarantee on any wheel that he builds "according to his
recommendation". As he has been doing this for something like 30 years
I assume that he knows what he is doing.


He probably doesn't know where I am riding and with what sort of load :-)

I even broke spokes on bikes assembled and tuned by professionals. My
main concern is Murphy's law because it states that if there is a spoke
failure that is impossible to trim out well enough this will be at the
farthest point from home.

If you are worried about breaking drive side spokes in remote places
there are tools made to repair the problem. Of course, one has to
actually purchase and carry these tools for them to be of any use.

An alternate is the flexible spokes made from the same material as
bullet proof vests that can be installed without removing the
cassette.

Peter White goes on at some length about bicycle wheels and riders,
but essentially he says:

"If wheels are properly built, they will need little if any truing
ever. The rim or hub should fail before the spokes. My guarantee
covers spoke breakage and truing. If you buy a wheel from me that I
recommend for you, and a spoke ever breaks that hasn't been obviously
impacted and damaged by jamming the chain between the cassette cogs
and the spokes or getting a foreign object caught in the spokes, I
will replace that spoke free of charge, while you wait. If that wheel
ever needs truing, I will true it while you wait, free of charge."

Note the part that says "If you buy a wheel from me that I recommend
for you".

Since he has been in business for about 30 years it seems likely that
he stands behind his guarantee.

Oh, yes. I found a source of 12 gauge spokes. It seems that Huffy
sells them. See:
http://www.huskybicycles.com/mm5/mer...ory_Co de=12G

But a quick look at the Internet finds quite a number of sites that
talk about loaded touring, in one case the writer refers to 12,000
miles of loaded touring on a set of wheels. In fact he talks about the
hub bearing wearing out first.

It is obvious that people are out there doing it and wheels are being
made for such use.

Well, I used ordinary 1.8/2.0mm spokes on my tandem which routinely saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male friend). It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I built them, and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride the tandem on super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain lions.

-- Jay Beattie

On 3/28/2017 10:44 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:36:11 -0700, Joerg
wrote:
I even broke spokes on bikes assembled and tuned by professionals. My
main concern is Murphy's law because it states that if there is a spoke
failure that is impossible to trim out well enough this will be at the
farthest point from home.

If you are worried about breaking drive side spokes in remote places
there are tools made to repair the problem. Of course, one has to
actually purchase and carry these tools for them to be of any use.

I can't imagine Joerg carrying the spare and the tool. He's the guy who
doesn't carry a chain tool despite many broken chains, which he has
chosen to repair using rocks and nails.

Broken spoke in the outback? I'm sure there's always a barbed wire
fence somewhere nearby. He can just use a rock to grind out a suitable
length of fence wire, then twist it to splice it with the remains of the
original spoke. He'll be on his way in not time at all - just a few hours.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 7:44:47 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:36:11 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-27 19:20, John B. wrote:

[...]


On the other hand Peter White ( www.peterwhitecycles.com ) will
give a lifetime guarantee on any wheel that he builds
"according to his recommendation". As he has been doing this
for something like 30 years I assume that he knows what he is
doing.


He probably doesn't know where I am riding and with what sort of
load :-)

I even broke spokes on bikes assembled and tuned by
professionals. My main concern is Murphy's law because it states
that if there is a spoke failure that is impossible to trim out
well enough this will be at the farthest point from home.

If you are worried about breaking drive side spokes in remote
places there are tools made to repair the problem. Of course, one
has to actually purchase and carry these tools for them to be of
any use.

An alternate is the flexible spokes made from the same material as
bullet proof vests that can be installed without removing the
cassette.

Peter White goes on at some length about bicycle wheels and
riders, but essentially he says:

"If wheels are properly built, they will need little if any truing
ever. The rim or hub should fail before the spokes. My guarantee
covers spoke breakage and truing. If you buy a wheel from me that
I recommend for you, and a spoke ever breaks that hasn't been
obviously impacted and damaged by jamming the chain between the
cassette cogs and the spokes or getting a foreign object caught in
the spokes, I will replace that spoke free of charge, while you
wait. If that wheel ever needs truing, I will true it while you
wait, free of charge."


A wee problem would be that the shipping back and forth is surely not
included and would eat a lot of money. Not everyone in the country lives
where Peter White does.

Other than that I'd probably be back numerous times.


Note the part that says "If you buy a wheel from me that I
recommend for you".


That is what I did when I bought this road bike. From a pro dealer who
first asked me about my riding style and the typical turf. Then he said
"Oh, in your case the usual fare won't do", took wider rims and thicker
spokes and built the wheels.


Since he has been in business for about 30 years it seems likely
that he stands behind his guarantee.

Oh, yes. I found a source of 12 gauge spokes. It seems that Huffy
sells them. See:
http://www.huskybicycles.com/mm5/mer...ory_Co de=12G



But a quick look at the Internet finds quite a number of sites that
talk about loaded touring, in one case the writer refers to 12,000
miles of loaded touring on a set of wheels. In fact he talks about
the hub bearing wearing out first.

It is obvious that people are out there doing it and wheels are
being made for such use.

Well, I used ordinary 1.8/2.0mm spokes on my tandem which routinely


Hey, finally someone understand the word "routinely" :-)


saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male friend).
It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I built them,
and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride the tandem on
super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain lions.



It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to take sections
of dirt road and the occasional stretch of singletrack even with the
road bike.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 9:55:52 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 7:44:47 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:36:11 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-27 19:20, John B. wrote:

[...]


On the other hand Peter White ( www.peterwhitecycles.com ) will
give a lifetime guarantee on any wheel that he builds
"according to his recommendation". As he has been doing this
for something like 30 years I assume that he knows what he is
doing.


He probably doesn't know where I am riding and with what sort of
load :-)

I even broke spokes on bikes assembled and tuned by
professionals. My main concern is Murphy's law because it states
that if there is a spoke failure that is impossible to trim out
well enough this will be at the farthest point from home.

If you are worried about breaking drive side spokes in remote
places there are tools made to repair the problem. Of course, one
has to actually purchase and carry these tools for them to be of
any use.

An alternate is the flexible spokes made from the same material as
bullet proof vests that can be installed without removing the
cassette.

Peter White goes on at some length about bicycle wheels and
riders, but essentially he says:

"If wheels are properly built, they will need little if any truing
ever. The rim or hub should fail before the spokes. My guarantee
covers spoke breakage and truing. If you buy a wheel from me that
I recommend for you, and a spoke ever breaks that hasn't been
obviously impacted and damaged by jamming the chain between the
cassette cogs and the spokes or getting a foreign object caught in
the spokes, I will replace that spoke free of charge, while you
wait. If that wheel ever needs truing, I will true it while you
wait, free of charge."


A wee problem would be that the shipping back and forth is surely not
included and would eat a lot of money. Not everyone in the country lives
where Peter White does.

Other than that I'd probably be back numerous times.


Note the part that says "If you buy a wheel from me that I
recommend for you".


That is what I did when I bought this road bike. From a pro dealer who
first asked me about my riding style and the typical turf. Then he said
"Oh, in your case the usual fare won't do", took wider rims and thicker
spokes and built the wheels.


Since he has been in business for about 30 years it seems likely
that he stands behind his guarantee.

Oh, yes. I found a source of 12 gauge spokes. It seems that Huffy
sells them. See:
http://www.huskybicycles.com/mm5/mer...ory_Co de=12G



But a quick look at the Internet finds quite a number of sites that
talk about loaded touring, in one case the writer refers to 12,000
miles of loaded touring on a set of wheels. In fact he talks about
the hub bearing wearing out first.

It is obvious that people are out there doing it and wheels are
being made for such use.

Well, I used ordinary 1.8/2.0mm spokes on my tandem which routinely


Hey, finally someone understand the word "routinely" :-)


saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male friend).
It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I built them,
and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride the tandem on
super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain lions.



It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to take sections
of dirt road and the occasional stretch of singletrack even with the
road bike.

Some of my inner-city trails are now just running streams over rock, even the mud has been washed off with all the rain. This is more of a tire issue than a spoke issue, though. My wheels are doing fine.

At the end of the day, even if you wanted to go with thick spokes, I don't know how you would get 12G spokes through the spoke holes in an ordinary road hub flange.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2017-03-29 11:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 9:55:52 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male
friend). It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I
built them, and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride
the tandem on super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain
lions.



It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to take
sections of dirt road and the occasional stretch of singletrack
even with the road bike.

Some of my inner-city trails are now just running streams over rock,
even the mud has been washed off with all the rain. This is more of
a tire issue than a spoke issue, though. My wheels are doing fine.


I have a steel frame road bike, weigh around 220lbs myself and typically
carry a load. Also lots of hills and steep uphill intersections where I
have to stop and then often step on it to clear traffic. That and
offroad is where the spokes go kaputt. This is a typical unpaved road in
our area:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chapparal1.JPG

As for tires the only challenge I had was with the inadequate side walls
of Gatorskins. Lost too many prematurely. Now trying CST Conquistare
and, knock on wood, after about 350mi absolutely no visible effects, not
even chafing. Gatorskins looked worn in the side walls by that time,
often fiber strands were already flappping in the wind. If the CST tires
give me 1500mi or more I'll have found my future tire.

It was similar on the 29" MTB, side walls failing. Until I found that
Asian tire where cheaper and to my surprise no more side wall blow-outs.
Except for one violent burst where a whole chunk of tire flew off but
that might have been a manufacturing defect.


At the end of the day, even if you wanted to go with thick spokes, I
don't know how you would get 12G spokes through the spoke holes in an
ordinary road hub flange.


That is one of the many reasons why I'd buy a complete wheel where
someone has done so already :-)

If not I'd drill, countersink, hone and polish. No big deal. The inside
is a bit tough but for the decadent with money they sell angle grinding
attachments.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 3/29/2017 12:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2017 at 7:44:47 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:36:11 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-27 19:20, John B. wrote:

[...]


On the other hand Peter White ( www.peterwhitecycles.com ) will
give a lifetime guarantee on any wheel that he builds
"according to his recommendation". As he has been doing this
for something like 30 years I assume that he knows what he is
doing.


He probably doesn't know where I am riding and with what sort of
load :-)

I even broke spokes on bikes assembled and tuned by
professionals. My main concern is Murphy's law because it states
that if there is a spoke failure that is impossible to trim out
well enough this will be at the farthest point from home.

If you are worried about breaking drive side spokes in remote
places there are tools made to repair the problem. Of course, one
has to actually purchase and carry these tools for them to be of
any use.

An alternate is the flexible spokes made from the same material as
bullet proof vests that can be installed without removing the
cassette.

Peter White goes on at some length about bicycle wheels and
riders, but essentially he says:

"If wheels are properly built, they will need little if any truing
ever. The rim or hub should fail before the spokes. My guarantee
covers spoke breakage and truing. If you buy a wheel from me that
I recommend for you, and a spoke ever breaks that hasn't been
obviously impacted and damaged by jamming the chain between the
cassette cogs and the spokes or getting a foreign object caught in
the spokes, I will replace that spoke free of charge, while you
wait. If that wheel ever needs truing, I will true it while you
wait, free of charge."


A wee problem would be that the shipping back and forth is surely not
included and would eat a lot of money. Not everyone in the country lives
where Peter White does.

Other than that I'd probably be back numerous times.


Note the part that says "If you buy a wheel from me that I
recommend for you".


That is what I did when I bought this road bike. From a pro dealer who
first asked me about my riding style and the typical turf. Then he said
"Oh, in your case the usual fare won't do", took wider rims and thicker
spokes and built the wheels.


Since he has been in business for about 30 years it seems likely
that he stands behind his guarantee.

Oh, yes. I found a source of 12 gauge spokes. It seems that Huffy
sells them. See:
http://www.huskybicycles.com/mm5/mer...ory_Co de=12G




But a quick look at the Internet finds quite a number of sites that
talk about loaded touring, in one case the writer refers to 12,000
miles of loaded touring on a set of wheels. In fact he talks about
the hub bearing wearing out first.

It is obvious that people are out there doing it and wheels are
being made for such use.

Well, I used ordinary 1.8/2.0mm spokes on my tandem which routinely


Hey, finally someone understand the word "routinely" :-)


saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male friend).
It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I built them,
and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride the tandem on
super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain lions.



It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to take sections
of dirt road and the occasional stretch of singletrack even with the
road bike.

That's not uncommon. To get to the house of one of my best friends, I
usually shortcut through our forest preserve. Gravel road, single track
trail through the forest edge and then through a grassy meadow, drop
down off a curb and ride on. No problem.

Jobst was famous for riding his road bike where most mountain bikers
feared to go. Photos are online.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-03-29 13:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2017 12:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male friend).
It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I built them,
and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride the tandem on
super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain lions.



It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to take sections
of dirt road and the occasional stretch of singletrack even with the
road bike.

That's not uncommon. To get to the house of one of my best friends, I
usually shortcut through our forest preserve. Gravel road, single track
trail through the forest edge and then through a grassy meadow, drop
down off a curb and ride on. No problem.

Jobst was famous for riding his road bike where most mountain bikers
feared to go. Photos are online.


So did I, almost since the training wheels had come off. This is why I
always kept a large stash of new spokes. They broke all the time. While
at university all I could afford for commuting were department road
bikes and anything more would have been stolen anyhow. Each lasted about
one year and afterwards was totally finished. Not a big deal because I
could buy another used one for around $30.

As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike and that's
was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle but the tens of lbs
riding along in back won't.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike and that's
was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle but the tens of lbs
riding along in back won't.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Funny thing is that many people TOUR with HEAVY LOADS on dirt roads at least as bad as your 'Chapparal' image yet don't have problems with busted sopkes or busted wheels.

Also, just drilling out a normal hub to take those large diameter spokes you talk about, will most likely cause the hub flange to fail. But then again that'd give you something else to complain about.

Trade in the bicycle for a motorcycle and get someone to afix a pedal drive to it to cure all your bicycle riding woes.

Cheers

On 2017-03-29 16:42, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike and
that's was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle but the
tens of lbs riding along in back won't.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Funny thing is that many people TOUR with HEAVY LOADS on dirt roads
at least as bad as your 'Chapparal' image yet don't have problems
with busted sopkes or busted wheels.


My experience is different. I have participated in many tours with tents
and all that. Broken spokes were common among pretty much all riders.


Also, just drilling out a normal hub to take those large diameter
spokes you talk about, will most likely cause the hub flange to fail.
But then again that'd give you something else to complain about.


You have to pick one with enough meat on there and not some weight
weenie version.


Trade in the bicycle for a motorcycle and get someone to afix a pedal
drive to it to cure all your bicycle riding woes.


Funny thing is that the MTB wheels hold up rather well. No busted spokes
there yet and that bike gets used hard. It took me a while to find
decvent tires but I've got those now.

Now, about that bent shock mount ...

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/