Behold: Future Shock

On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 2:44:04 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/future-shock

--
JS

Aw, hell, I've already had this huge new "invention". These clowns are just copycatting a Shimano innovation from c2002 that didn't take. The original Shimano Di2,besides the headline computer-controlled genuine automatic gearbox (much, much more advanced than the current roadie Di2 which isn't automatic at all but manually triggered electrically assisted shifting, an inferior thing on bikes as it was on Porsche) included a hub dynamo to provide power for the "battery" (actually a capacitor), and front and rear adaptive electronic suspensions. My Trek Smover (officially "Cyber Nexus"
t http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html)
had the auto gearbox, control computer, dynamo, and front suspension from the original Di2 groupset, but not the rear suspension which Trek thought superfluous both on their proto (which is now in my possession) and the limited production series by their Benelux operation headquartered in Luxembourg.. Of course something this refined was never offered to Americans, though they were able to buy the diamond frame under the L700 series of mountain bikes.

So the front suspension on this 15 year-old bike, now in the loft a couple of floors above me, was more advanced (electronically active) than what Specialized is currently offering as the "future", and very likely worked better. Certainly the Trek rode smoother on its Bontrager Elite Hard Case tyres than a bike with very soft front suspension, my Gazelle Toulouse which had workalike Marathon Plus tyres in a similar size -- I wouldn't be surprised if those tyres were made in the same factory on the same carcases. All the same, neither ride was undisturbed on chip and seal, though of course vastly superior to an unsuspended Peugeot mountain bike I had about the same time, which literally paid for my physic's BMW by wrecking my back. In short, standard front suspension, soft, was an improvement, active electronic suspension was a further improvement, but I thought I could do better. (I always think I can do better; mostly I can, but usually I can also see why the improvement was not worth the marginal cost to a commercial manufacturer.)

I did, on a bike
http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf
designed from the ground up to take advantage of Schwalbe's Big Apple low pressure balloons. The upshot is what should have been obvious to the Specialized designers from the beginning: air is the cheapest, the most controllable (you just inflate to ever lower pressures until the chip and seal shiver disappears from your grips), and the most effective suspension medium ever invented not by man but by god. (I'm not surprised Franki-boy Krygowski, anyway a third-rate engineer, missed this pretty obvious point, mainly because he's an arrogant asshole who thinks manmade is always better than godmade, nor that Jeff Liebermann, a thoughtful sort of fellow, picked it up.)

As a writer, I'm a sort of manual laborer (I operate a keyboard), and I am thus veeeeery conscious of repetitive disturbances to my hands. I don't fancy RSI in my hands, and my experience in automobiles, especially with Citroens of the hydraulic age (I had several DS and SM, the first being fast point-to-point quite out of the class of its ancient tractor engine because of its suspension, and the SM, in its time more expensive than a Rolls, being the most comfortable fast continent-crosser ever made, again, quite out of the class of what for large GT cars -- the SM was a coupe longer than an S-class Mercedes -- was a very modest engine indeed, a sort of cut-down -- and incompetently at that -- three-quarters of an originally excellent Maserati V8) and with fast Bentleys (the self-leveling was licensed from Citroen), has long since convinced me that true comfort in a motorcar starts with the absence of transmitted vibrations and noise. One of my favorite all-time continent crossers was a 7-litre Ford LTD that was quieter inside than a Rolls; Stirling Moss also kept one for fast European touring; mine, admittedly with the engine, suspension and brakes breathed on by me, kicked the living **** out of a Porsche from London to Nardo in the boot of Italy. More, in the late 70s I was doing the fast work in a Ferrari 400, a large four-seater coupe, in Mexico for a magazine and they also had a Lincoln with simple air suspension on test, and I made that Lincoln go faster around the circuit they chose than the Ferrari, simply because it's air suspension conformed better to the rough surface than the Ferrari's harsh springs. So when I design and build or commission a bike intended to be comfortable for touring, i.e. very long days in the saddle and on the grips, I start with eliminating noise and vibration, that is, at the tyres. My current bike has solid forks and seat post; it's entire, very competent, suspension is in those balloons. I've come to view suspended forks and seat posts, in fact all kinds of springs on a bicycle as kludges for incompetent design. Their designers should go back to school and the vendors of sprung forks and seat posts should get eternal heartburn for their greed.

Obviously, I agree with Jeff that whatever improvement the testers observed in comfort was more likely to start at the fatter tyres than at that pretty gimmicky spring in the head tube.

Specialized is pulling a fast one; they should go back to the drawing board and start with the tyres.

This idea didn't work for Shimano, who had a superior suspension system included in their original Di2 umpteen years ago, and it won't work either now or in the "future" for Specialized.

Andre Jute
KISS

On 4/4/2017 6:59 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 6:08:27 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/3/2017 10:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/3/2017 9:44 PM, James wrote:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/future-shock

Tantalizing, but where are the technical/mechanical details?
Did I miss something?



Marketing 101: "The crap we sold you last year is no good.
Here's the new one."

Hey, my son sold a couple of the Di2 models just the other day -- a husband and wife pair. If someone wants to put him through college, that's fine with me. He reports that the Roubaix does not ride like a pogo-stick.

I'm not buying Di2 because I'm worried about Russian hacking.

Yeah. Don't try to outsprint a Katusha rider if you've got DI2. You'll
be on the big cog so fast your head will spin.
No more worries from Tinkoff, though.

Mark J.

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 07:54:50 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 16:07:33 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 23:41:06 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/3/2017 9:44 PM, James wrote:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/future-shock

Tantalizing, but where are the technical/mechanical details? Did I miss
something?

Never mind the technical drawings, what is this stiction - "and
because of stiction, they require too much force to initiate their
travel" - is this some new force that we should be aware of?

Will people be saying things like, "Oh, I couldn't open the door,
there is too much stiction"?

It's a term common in the hard disk drive business. When two highly
polished surfaces connect, considerable force is required to separate
them again. No adhesive required. For the disk drives, when the
polished head lands on the polished platter, they stick. The motor
has to work harder to separate the two before head can be made to fly
again. My guess(tm) is that the suspension system has the same
problem, although I can't imagine exactly where.

Err. the "problem" or "advantage" of extremely smooth, flat surfaces
"sticking" together has been around as long as they have been making
"Jo Blocks" which date back to the late 1800's. But I never heard the
term "stiction" used to describe the fact that once you "wring" them
together you can't get them apart.... except by wringing them apart
:-)

Interestingly the force holding them together is much higher then
atmospheric pressure. i.e. if you wring a pair of, say 1 inch square,
blocks together it takes far more then 14 lbs to pull them apart.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 08:19:22 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Apr 2017 22:07:12 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

I wonder if the superior ride
that the reviewers experienced is due to the wide tires and not the
Future Shock spring thing?

This is ridiculous. If Specialized wanted to smooth out the potholes
and road bumps, they should have used a vertical mass damper as is
often used in skyscrapers. Or perhaps produced a vertical electric
generator, which would convert the energy lost in the bumpy vertical
motion into forward motion using a motor instead of wasted as heat
inside a shock absorber:
http://www.treehugger.com/bikes/bike-generator-harnesses-power-from-bumps-on-the-road.html

It is also possible to use wearable technology. All that's needed are
two large springs wrapped around the riders forearms. That would
produce the same effect as putting a spring in the stem. Actually,
the springs aren't really necessary as they could be replaced with an
air bag between the hands and the handlebar grips. The bicycle might
ride like a boneshaker, but your arms will never feel a thing while
wearing the air springs.

Or even take a bit of the load on your legs and relax your arms a bit
:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, April 4, 2017 at 8:40:32 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 08:19:22 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Apr 2017 22:07:12 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

I wonder if the superior ride
that the reviewers experienced is due to the wide tires and not the
Future Shock spring thing?

This is ridiculous. If Specialized wanted to smooth out the potholes
and road bumps, they should have used a vertical mass damper as is
often used in skyscrapers. Or perhaps produced a vertical electric
generator, which would convert the energy lost in the bumpy vertical
motion into forward motion using a motor instead of wasted as heat
inside a shock absorber:
http://www.treehugger.com/bikes/bike-generator-harnesses-power-from-bumps-on-the-road.html

It is also possible to use wearable technology. All that's needed are
two large springs wrapped around the riders forearms. That would
produce the same effect as putting a spring in the stem. Actually,
the springs aren't really necessary as they could be replaced with an
air bag between the hands and the handlebar grips. The bicycle might
ride like a boneshaker, but your arms will never feel a thing while
wearing the air springs.

Or even take a bit of the load on your legs and relax your arms a bit
:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

I remember an MTB I had that had a piston-type dmaper on the stem to absorb shocks/bumps. It always felt like I was about to go overthe bars when the bars suddenly dropped when hitting a big bump or pothole. I got rid of that bike pronto. I still wonder what the steering on this newest gizmo will be like once wear sets in and the steering gets a bit sloppy. Do they have a method to rreadjustt he thing to take up any slack?

Cheers

On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 07:40:26 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 08:19:22 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Apr 2017 22:07:12 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

I wonder if the superior ride
that the reviewers experienced is due to the wide tires and not the
Future Shock spring thing?

This is ridiculous. If Specialized wanted to smooth out the potholes
and road bumps, they should have used a vertical mass damper as is
often used in skyscrapers. Or perhaps produced a vertical electric
generator, which would convert the energy lost in the bumpy vertical
motion into forward motion using a motor instead of wasted as heat
inside a shock absorber:
http://www.treehugger.com/bikes/bike-generator-harnesses-power-from-bumps-on-the-road.html

It is also possible to use wearable technology. All that's needed are
two large springs wrapped around the riders forearms. That would
produce the same effect as putting a spring in the stem. Actually,
the springs aren't really necessary as they could be replaced with an
air bag between the hands and the handlebar grips. The bicycle might
ride like a boneshaker, but your arms will never feel a thing while
wearing the air springs.

Or even take a bit off the load on your legs and relax your arms a bit
:-)

Not really. When riding your bicycle, you have 5 points of contact
with the machine. Two arms on the handlebars, two feet on the pedals,
and one posterior on the saddle. If you do anything to take the load
off one or more of these, the load is simply transferred to the
others. If a sprung handlebar were to apply an upward force on the
hands for an extended period of time, the lost upward force would
redistribute itself in additional force on the saddle and feet. You
might get some temporary relief from gravity in the arms from a sprung
handlebar, but when you return to earth from the initial launching,
your arms will feel both the upward return force plus the original
weight of supporting your upper body. That's what you feel when you
jump and land. Sorry, no free lunch today.

Some ways out of this puzzle are to:
1. Distribute the spring launching force over a longer length of
time, thus reducing the peak force. This is part of what a shock
absorber does. Instead of returning the spring compressive force in
one instantaneous bang, it delays the expansion of the spring, thus
stretching out the spring expansion time.
2. Dissipate the energy built up in the spring by heating the air
inside an air shock (Charles's Law). When the air shock volume is
compressed, it raises the air temperature inside the air shock, thus
getting rid of some of the energy that would normally be returned to
the riders arms when the spring expands.

Incidentally, there's yet another way to build a handlebar shock
absorber system. Put each handlebar on a hinge so that the handlebars
swing in line with the head tube angle. On each hinge, attach a
spring and shock absorber, much like those festooned all over the
frame of todays mountain bikes. The effect would be the same as a
spring and shock inside the stem, except that there would be some
rotation of hands involved. Sprung stems and handlebars are nothing
new:
http://www.cxmagazine.com/stafast-suspension-stem-air-shock-angle-adjustment-gravel
http://www.cyclingabout.com/suspension-stems-making-your-ride-smoother/
http://www.bikepro.com/products/stems/soft.html
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimg/2292188092/
https://www.google.com/search?q=jd+suspension+slick+rock&tbm=isch

Can I go back to work now?

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 16:07:33 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Never mind the technical drawings, what is this stiction

It's a contraction of "static friction". In theory, it's a myth that
static friction is greater than sliding friction. In practice, the
difference is easy to measure.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On 4/4/2017 9:08 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/3/2017 10:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/3/2017 9:44 PM, James wrote:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/future-shock

Tantalizing, but where are the technical/mechanical details?
Did I miss something?



Marketing 101: "The crap we sold you last year is no good. Here's the
new one."

Come to think of it, are they finally admitting Zertz are worthless?


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 18:46:24 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 07:40:26 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 08:19:22 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Apr 2017 22:07:12 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

I wonder if the superior ride
that the reviewers experienced is due to the wide tires and not the
Future Shock spring thing?

This is ridiculous. If Specialized wanted to smooth out the potholes
and road bumps, they should have used a vertical mass damper as is
often used in skyscrapers. Or perhaps produced a vertical electric
generator, which would convert the energy lost in the bumpy vertical
motion into forward motion using a motor instead of wasted as heat
inside a shock absorber:
http://www.treehugger.com/bikes/bike-generator-harnesses-power-from-bumps-on-the-road.html

It is also possible to use wearable technology. All that's needed are
two large springs wrapped around the riders forearms. That would
produce the same effect as putting a spring in the stem. Actually,
the springs aren't really necessary as they could be replaced with an
air bag between the hands and the handlebar grips. The bicycle might
ride like a boneshaker, but your arms will never feel a thing while
wearing the air springs.

Or even take a bit off the load on your legs and relax your arms a bit
:-)

Not really. When riding your bicycle, you have 5 points of contact
with the machine. Two arms on the handlebars, two feet on the pedals,
and one posterior on the saddle. If you do anything to take the load
off one or more of these, the load is simply transferred to the
others. If a sprung handlebar were to apply an upward force on the
hands for an extended period of time, the lost upward force would
redistribute itself in additional force on the saddle and feet. You
might get some temporary relief from gravity in the arms from a sprung
handlebar, but when you return to earth from the initial launching,
your arms will feel both the upward return force plus the original
weight of supporting your upper body. That's what you feel when you
jump and land. Sorry, no free lunch today.

I see. You are telling me that the rather elaborate springs and shock
absorbers under my wife's car are a waste of money? After all there
are always just those four tires carrying all the weight?

Ridiculous.

Then you go on for 28 lines and include 5 references to tell us all
about springs and compressed air getting hot.

Why, all you got to do is just get on your bike and try riding your
bike over the bumps while sitting there like a blob on the seat. Then
try exactly the same thing except take a little of your weight on your
legs with your knees bent just a little. Hot Damn! Your legs will act
just like your springs and compressed air and you will sort of float
over the bumps. Why, you can even loosen your death grip on the
handlebars and just use your hands and arms to sort of balance
yourself there, on your hind legs.

This is hardly an inovation. "Way back when" even automobiles used to
have "Knee Action". And even earlier people riding horses had made
this unique discovery.

Words:
http://theoldmotor.com/?tag=chevrole...ion-suspension
Pictures:
https://www.google.co.th/search?q=Ch...Ha1BBMEQsAQIHg
Movin' pitchers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W_J6UhQP6s
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 4/4/2017 9:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2017 9:08 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/3/2017 10:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/3/2017 9:44 PM, James wrote:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/future-shock

Tantalizing, but where are the technical/mechanical details?
Did I miss something?



Marketing 101: "The crap we sold you last year is no good.
Here's the
new one."

Come to think of it, are they finally admitting Zertz are
worthless?


Do you imply that you're (gasp!) riding old products?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971