MA3 rim failure, where to now

Simon Brooke writes:

No indeed, as Humpty-Dumpty pointed out to Alice, you're prefectly at
liberty to use words to mean whatever you want them to mean. But if
you do you'll have to put up with the rest of us either not
understanding you, or ridiculing you, or both.


Regarding your earlier request for a way to describe how a wheel is
supported, how about:

A spoked wheel is supported by an incremental detensioning of its
bottom spokes.

I'm not wild about the word "detensioning" and prefer the equivalent

A spoked wheel is supported by an incremental compression of its
bottom spokes.

The "incremental" is there to suggest that the compression (or detensioning)
is a small change from the base state.


In light of this discussion, you might want to ponder how an inflated
tire supports the rim. The situation, and solution, is analogous to
the spokes and rim; though in this case the outer element, the tire,
is in tension.


Joe Riel

Simon Brooke writes:

No indeed, as Humpty-Dumpty pointed out to Alice, you're prefectly at
liberty to use words to mean whatever you want them to mean. But if
you do you'll have to put up with the rest of us either not
understanding you, or ridiculing you, or both.


Regarding your earlier request for a way to describe how a wheel is
supported, how about:

A spoked wheel is supported by an incremental detensioning of its
bottom spokes.

I'm not wild about the word "detensioning" and prefer the equivalent

A spoked wheel is supported by an incremental compression of its
bottom spokes.

The "incremental" is there to suggest that the compression (or detensioning)
is a small change from the base state.


In light of this discussion, you might want to ponder how an inflated
tire supports the rim. The situation, and solution, is analogous to
the spokes and rim; though in this case the outer element, the tire,
is in tension.


Joe Riel

writes:

In light of this discussion, you might want to ponder how an
inflated tire supports the rim. The situation, and solution, is
analogous to the spokes and rim; though in this case the outer
element, the tire, is in tension.

Not fair, that was my next question to pose for this discussion. OK.
In that case, no peaking at the answer.

I was cycling through other examples that would encourage
the participants to consider the situation from another angle.
My first thought was of a balloon. It didn't take me too much
longer to come up with a more appropriate inflatable structure
to discuss for rec.bicycles.tech. Probably should have thought
of it sooner considering I was riding to work at the time.

Joe Riel

writes:

In light of this discussion, you might want to ponder how an
inflated tire supports the rim. The situation, and solution, is
analogous to the spokes and rim; though in this case the outer
element, the tire, is in tension.

Not fair, that was my next question to pose for this discussion. OK.
In that case, no peaking at the answer.

I was cycling through other examples that would encourage
the participants to consider the situation from another angle.
My first thought was of a balloon. It didn't take me too much
longer to come up with a more appropriate inflatable structure
to discuss for rec.bicycles.tech. Probably should have thought
of it sooner considering I was riding to work at the time.

Joe Riel

"Joe Riel" wrote in message
...
Simon Brooke writes:

A spoked wheel is supported by an incremental compression of its
bottom spokes.


Really? Or are the bototm spokes detensioned by deformation of the rim as a
consequence of the applied load? Is the rim deformation the thing which
holds the hub up?

--
Guy
===

WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.com

"Joe Riel" wrote in message
...
Simon Brooke writes:

A spoked wheel is supported by an incremental compression of its
bottom spokes.


Really? Or are the bototm spokes detensioned by deformation of the rim as a
consequence of the applied load? Is the rim deformation the thing which
holds the hub up?

--
Guy
===

WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.com

"Just zis Guy, you know?" writes:

"Joe Riel" wrote in message
...
Simon Brooke writes:

A spoked wheel is supported by an incremental compression of its
bottom spokes.

Oi! No, I didn't, Guy - I din't write any of what you quoted!

Really? Or are the bototm spokes detensioned by deformation of the rim as a
consequence of the applied load? Is the rim deformation the thing which
holds the hub up?

Actually, David Icke has just informed me that bicycle hubs are
supported by concentrated green mana energy emanating from the heart
of Gaia.

WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.

No! You don't say?

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and there was nothing we could do but wait
patiently for the RAC to arrive.

"Just zis Guy, you know?" writes:

"Joe Riel" wrote in message
...
Simon Brooke writes:

A spoked wheel is supported by an incremental compression of its
bottom spokes.

Oi! No, I didn't, Guy - I din't write any of what you quoted!

Really? Or are the bototm spokes detensioned by deformation of the rim as a
consequence of the applied load? Is the rim deformation the thing which
holds the hub up?

Actually, David Icke has just informed me that bicycle hubs are
supported by concentrated green mana energy emanating from the heart
of Gaia.

WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.

No! You don't say?

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and there was nothing we could do but wait
patiently for the RAC to arrive.

"AndyMorris" writes:

Simon Brooke wrote:

Even if you still think you're right and we're wrong, you still should
not use this terminology because it obviously miscommunicates with a
substantial subset of you audience.

[snip]

To say that a hub stands on the bottom spokes suggests that the bottom
spokes undergo more strain than the bottom ones, this is true.

I think you probably meant to say 'the bottom spokes undergo more
strain than the top ones'; if so, it's _not_ true, and is just
precisely the misunderstanding this 'stands on' nonsense leads to. The
bottom spokes at any given moment - those immediately above the
contact patch - experience the _least_ strain of all the spokes -
they're doing _least_ work. But they do, dynamically, experience the
greatest _change_ of strain as they move from being normally loaded at
about half-past-four to relatively highly loaded at five o'clock to
relatively unloaded at 6 o'clock to relatively highly loaded at 7
o'clock to normal again by half-past-seven.

The words 'hangs' and 'stands' are very old and originated before the
existence of prestressed structure's. Our understanding of prestressed
structure means that we have to have a more subtle definition of those
terms.

Nonsense. A longbow is a prestressed structure, and there's one in the
Museum of Scotland that's 6000 years old. Unless you want to tell me
that in whatever long-lost language the bowyer spoke, he would have
told you that the upper limb of the bow 'stands on' the bowstring?

Structures, by the way, is a plural not a possessive and does not have
an apostrophe.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and there was nothing we could do but wait
patiently for the RAC to arrive.

"AndyMorris" writes:

Simon Brooke wrote:

Even if you still think you're right and we're wrong, you still should
not use this terminology because it obviously miscommunicates with a
substantial subset of you audience.

[snip]

To say that a hub stands on the bottom spokes suggests that the bottom
spokes undergo more strain than the bottom ones, this is true.

I think you probably meant to say 'the bottom spokes undergo more
strain than the top ones'; if so, it's _not_ true, and is just
precisely the misunderstanding this 'stands on' nonsense leads to. The
bottom spokes at any given moment - those immediately above the
contact patch - experience the _least_ strain of all the spokes -
they're doing _least_ work. But they do, dynamically, experience the
greatest _change_ of strain as they move from being normally loaded at
about half-past-four to relatively highly loaded at five o'clock to
relatively unloaded at 6 o'clock to relatively highly loaded at 7
o'clock to normal again by half-past-seven.

The words 'hangs' and 'stands' are very old and originated before the
existence of prestressed structure's. Our understanding of prestressed
structure means that we have to have a more subtle definition of those
terms.

Nonsense. A longbow is a prestressed structure, and there's one in the
Museum of Scotland that's 6000 years old. Unless you want to tell me
that in whatever long-lost language the bowyer spoke, he would have
told you that the upper limb of the bow 'stands on' the bowstring?

Structures, by the way, is a plural not a possessive and does not have
an apostrophe.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and there was nothing we could do but wait
patiently for the RAC to arrive.