Extended stems

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:33:31 -0500, !Jones wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:42:46 -0700 (PDT), in rec.bicycles.tech Andre
Jute wrote:

I'm sorry to hear about your fall. We don't mention helmets here
because the helmet haters start foaming at the mouth.

That's fine... I used to scoff, also. One of my co-workers ragged on
me until I finally started wearing one; the wife always did. We have
never fallen and have ridden tandem for decades... all it takes is
once. When that puppy snapped off, there wasn't time to do anything
except obey gravity. The wife hit her head on the pavement and
cracked the helmet; however, she is OK. I don't even want to *think*
about the alternative to not wearing one... others may do as they
please. If they value their heads as much as *I* value their heads,
it's fine with me. I'm putting *my* head in a helmet. If my children
were of an age where I had any say, they'd wear one, too; however,
they're grown.

Yeah, if something could possibly go wrong, we have to defend against
that. Yeah, that's a good way to decide about risks. If there is the
slightest chance, especially with children, we have to act. Yeah,
that's rational.

We should use that sort of thinking about everything. Just think how
safe we'd be.

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:07:27 GMT, in rec.bicycles.tech Johnny
Twelve-Point presented by JFT wrote:

Yeah, if something could possibly go wrong, we have to defend against
that. Yeah, that's a good way to decide about risks. If there is the
slightest chance, especially with children, we have to act. Yeah,
that's rational.

We should use that sort of thinking about everything. Just think how
safe we'd be.

Actually, professionals base mitigation decisions on the probability
of the damage occurring factored with the cost of a single occurance
and the cost of mitigation.

There is also the aspect of who assumes the risk. I may risk my own
vehicle; however, I must insure yours against any error on my part and
prove that I have done so before I can get on the road. I am a good
driver; however, not a perfect one. If I fail to see your bicycle and
push you into the curb, am I liable? Of course I am!

Now, suppose (hopefully not) you took a spill and suffered a head
injury; however, you were not wearing a helmet... am I liable for your
head injury?

If you say "no", then I have nothing further to say... go in peace.
OTOH, if I am liable for your head injuries, then it's reasonable for
me to ask you to mitigate because *I* hold the risk. The same is true
for seatbelt laws and motorcycle helmet laws; they're based on
liability, not that anyone GAF about your head one way or the other.

Jones

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 19:39:47 -0500, !Jones wrote:

The same is true
for seatbelt laws and motorcycle helmet laws; they're based on
liability, not that anyone GAF about your head one way or the other.

What?

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 01:28:52 GMT, in rec.bicycles.tech Johnny
Twelve-Point presented by JFT wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 19:39:47 -0500, !Jones wrote:

The same is true
for seatbelt laws and motorcycle helmet laws; they're based on
liability, not that anyone GAF about your head one way or the other.

What?

GAF = "gives a f**k" Pardon my language, please; I wasn't trying to
be offensive.

Jones

On 11 Jul 2009 02:22:48 GMT, in rec.bicycles.tech
wrote:

Seat Belts and helmets are not in the same category of proven
usefulness. For years, as a youth I recall safety glass windshields
with star-burst fractures with blood on cars whose passenger
compartment was essentially undamaged. For some of which accident
reports in newspapers listed fatalities. With seat belts, these do
not occur anymore.

I had the experience of being a front seat passenger in a car that
made a solid rear-end collision. The people in the rear seats, who
had not fastened their seat belts, came close to striking the
windshield over me and the driver but were stuck above us against the
roof. Meanwhile, I felt as though I were watching a video of the
whole thing, so little was the effect on me with fastened seat belt.

I also witnessed the recovery of a car that went off local HWY9 into
Oil Creek ravine, (about a mile to the west of Saratoga Gap), down
about 100 yards jammed between fir trees. None of the four occupants,
who were wearing seat belts, required hospital attention, while the car
was a total loss and helicopters, that had been summoned, had no
passengers after the car had been hoisted back to the road, and doors
forced open to extract passengers and driver.

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have such a strikingly convincing
experience, from which I believe, one would never again question the
value of seat belts. Your points seem so distant from reality I can't
imagine you have any practical observations or experiences concerning
seat belts.

Well, I'm not following your point; I wasn't arguing seatbelts, I
don't think. I'm not even arguing helmets. If you don't want to
fasten your seatbelt, then, in a perfect world, that would be your own
business and none of mine. I support seatbelt and helmet laws *only*
because these reduce my potential liability... I do not place any
other particular value on your head and really don't care what you do
so long as I don't pay for it.

Jones

On 11 Jul 2009 02:56:06 GMT, in rec.bicycles.tech
wrote:

My point is that your attitude toward seat belts and your fellow man
is so much of:

"I don't care how badly others are injured, it's only liability that
I care about."

As you say, "I really don't care what you do so long as I don't pay
for it."

This may be a lot of bluff, but I believe you will get along better in
life when you show a bit of compassion for your fellow man. This
subject came up about encountering an injured or disabled person and
what one's actions should be.

Oh, I'm so full of compassion for my fellow man that I'd make you
puke!

My attitude toward seat belts (and helmets) and my fellow man is so
much of: "I'm not going to tell you how to live your life and what's
good for you." *I* choose to wear a helmet... I'm not preaching to
you.

Now, in the US, we typically tend to duck responsibility for our own
actions and decisions. If I choose not to provide myself and family
with health insurance, the hospital must treat me, anyway, or I sue
them. With this attitude dominate, now, the other guy's safety
equipment becomes my business because I hold the liability...
vicariously, through the welfare state.

Tell me, would you find me more compassionate if I tried to legislate
everyone into helmets?

Jones

On 10 July, 21:07, !Jones wrote:
I am building up an old, 20" tandem for touring. *It's way too small
for an adult, so I machined an extension for the goose neck... this
proved to be a poor idea! *As soon as I romped on it to get across a
busy street, the extension snapped off, leading to a very hard fall
for both of us.

OK, we had our helmets on... without them, it would have been E-room
visit for sure. *(Never again will I mount any bike without my
helmet!!!) *It was a very bad crash; however, we survived... at about
60 years old, that's the best one hopes for.


Don't forget knee pads, shin pads, elbow pads, kidney protectots,
ankle guards a seat belt and an air bag. Using improperly sized bikes
and poorly made components will result in a higher accident
frequency.

ps and protective gloves.

On Jul 10, 8:39*pm, !Jones wrote:
On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:07:27 GMT, in rec.bicycles.tech Johnny
Twelve-Point presented by JFT wrote:


Actually, professionals base mitigation decisions on the probability
of the damage occurring factored with the cost of a single occurance
and the cost of mitigation.

There is also the aspect of who assumes the risk. *I may risk my own
vehicle; however, I must insure yours against any error on my part and
prove that I have done so before I can get on the road. *I am a good
driver; however, not a perfect one. *If I fail to see your bicycle and
push you into the curb, am I liable? *Of course I am!

Now, suppose (hopefully not) you took a spill and suffered a head
injury; however, you were not wearing a helmet... am I liable for your
head injury?

If you say "no", then I have nothing further to say... go in peace.
OTOH, if I am liable for your head injuries, then it's reasonable for
me to ask you to mitigate because *I* hold the risk. *The same is true
for seatbelt laws and motorcycle helmet laws; they're based on
liability,

Jones

Very interesting viewpoint... liability or rights and freedoms ?

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:08:15 -0700 (PDT), in rec.bicycles.tech raamman
wrote:

On Jul 10, 8:39*pm, !Jones wrote:
On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:07:27 GMT, in rec.bicycles.tech Johnny
Twelve-Point presented by JFT wrote:


Actually, professionals base mitigation decisions on the probability
of the damage occurring factored with the cost of a single occurance
and the cost of mitigation.

There is also the aspect of who assumes the risk. *I may risk my own
vehicle; however, I must insure yours against any error on my part and
prove that I have done so before I can get on the road. *I am a good
driver; however, not a perfect one. *If I fail to see your bicycle and
push you into the curb, am I liable? *Of course I am!

Now, suppose (hopefully not) you took a spill and suffered a head
injury; however, you were not wearing a helmet... am I liable for your
head injury?

If you say "no", then I have nothing further to say... go in peace.
OTOH, if I am liable for your head injuries, then it's reasonable for
me to ask you to mitigate because *I* hold the risk. *The same is true
for seatbelt laws and motorcycle helmet laws; they're based on
liability,

Jones

Very interesting viewpoint... liability or rights and freedoms ?

I agree that you have extracted the issue and reduced it to a single
question. I do not have an answer for you, I'm afraid. *I* tend to
assert rights and freedom to choose; however, this comes at the cost
of not being able to hold me liable for choices you make... that's
where *I* come into the discussion. You're free to disagree, of
course.

Jones

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 06:52:31 -0700 (PDT), in rec.bicycles.tech someone
wrote:

Don't forget knee pads, shin pads, elbow pads, kidney protectots,
ankle guards a seat belt and an air bag. Using improperly sized bikes
and poorly made components will result in a higher accident
frequency.

Well, yes... obviously, the component that failed so spectacularly was
an issue. Since I machined it, I fear that I have no one to sue
besides myself.

Now, *there* is a thought! If I sue myself and win, then anything I
get as actual damages is non-taxable... OTOH, I can deduct any sum I'm
ordered to pay!!!

Hummm... I see some possibilities here! I think I'll sue myself...
it's better than jerking off, IMO. I'm going to ask for 50K... what
do you think? If I only get 25K from the incompetent moron, then I'm
about $1,400 ahead on tax minus court costs.

Jones