"I never tested positive."

Ernst Blofeld wrote:
They may or may not be evil criminals, but those that boost are
VIOLATING THE RULES OF BIKE RACING. We don't tolerate
riders who hop into the team car for the climbs, or riders who take
shortcuts that lop miles off the course. The rules are straightforward:
dope, get caught, and have your wins taken away and get suspended.

The 'get caught' part is one (extremely) non-straightforward part of
the problem. --D-y

Tom Kunich wrote:
"Ernst Blofeld" wrote in message
oups.com...

Tom Kunich wrote:
If you have a low natural Hct exactly how do you propose to have become a
pro in the first place?

Lemond never tested above 45%. The mean for pro racers, sans
artifical stimulation, seems to be in the low 40's. Of course in the
EPO era yo might need something higher to be competitive, just
because of the prevelance of cheaters.

When volume is high, as it is in athletes, the total count of rbc's is
higher than in normal people with higher Hct's. Ernst, it is a complicated
subject that you're passing off as a couple of simple numbers. After a day
in the saddle many of these riders have Hct's in the high 50's.

That the base performance of someone with low natural HCT
is not necessarily lower than that of someone with high natural HCT.

I'm hearing that title song from "Twilight Zone".

Why, what's so difficult about the concept? Master fattie with hct
of 48% vs. 25 year old Lemond with hct of 42%. Who wins?
(Excluding ex post facto bar tales by the master fattie.)

And yet you're telling us that to win you have to dope?

That someone with HCT boosted above their own body's natural level -
above what there own systems are adapted for - has an advantage over
someone at their natural level, whatever the absolute levels in the
case
are.

Perhaps you can cite any paper that would EVER suggest such a silly idea?

You just got done arguing that hct was the be-all and end-all of racing
performance, and now you're arguing that the idea of raising hct
from 42 to 49 is a "silly idea." Hmmm.

Hmm and all this time I thought I was arguing that Hct is only one small
part of the total performance equation and that YOU have been arguing that
Hct is so important that those who boost are evil criminals.

Here's a question for you: why did that Spanish doctor have such a long
and distinguished list of top racing talent as customers? They were
paying tens of thousands of euros to get their hct boosted above
their natural levels. Do you think it might be because, I don't know,
they thought they would get a performance boost? Or do you think
they were just idly passing the time, and decided to engage in behavior
that could get them kicked out of the TdF and banned for life from
racing for no good reason at all?

Riders do all sorts of stupid things that they believe will increase their
performance. Do you believe that eating pasta at breakfast is better than
eating white rice? I've actually seen that in writing.

Hct is nothing but the measure of how much O2 your blood can carry. But
consider this - the NORMAL blood oxygen even for those under high stress is
still above 95%. So Hct is not a very good indicator.

I googled this subject and found several articles on the topic. It's
incorrect to say that Hct is a measure of how much O2 your blood can
carry. The total number of RBCs is the measure of how much O2 your
blood can carry and studies have shown that increases in RBCs lead to
increases in performance (see link below). HCT alone is not an
indication of total RBCs. RBC transfusions, EPO or altitude training
will all increase both RBCs and Hct. Hct alone can not be used as an
indication of athletic potential.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?N21F1286D

Bret

Bret wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
"Ernst Blofeld" wrote in message
oups.com...

Tom Kunich wrote:
If you have a low natural Hct exactly how do you propose to have become a
pro in the first place?

Lemond never tested above 45%. The mean for pro racers, sans
artifical stimulation, seems to be in the low 40's. Of course in the
EPO era yo might need something higher to be competitive, just
because of the prevelance of cheaters.

When volume is high, as it is in athletes, the total count of rbc's is
higher than in normal people with higher Hct's. Ernst, it is a complicated
subject that you're passing off as a couple of simple numbers. After a day
in the saddle many of these riders have Hct's in the high 50's.

That the base performance of someone with low natural HCT
is not necessarily lower than that of someone with high natural HCT.

I'm hearing that title song from "Twilight Zone".

Why, what's so difficult about the concept? Master fattie with hct
of 48% vs. 25 year old Lemond with hct of 42%. Who wins?
(Excluding ex post facto bar tales by the master fattie.)

And yet you're telling us that to win you have to dope?

That someone with HCT boosted above their own body's natural level -
above what there own systems are adapted for - has an advantage over
someone at their natural level, whatever the absolute levels in the
case
are.

Perhaps you can cite any paper that would EVER suggest such a silly idea?

You just got done arguing that hct was the be-all and end-all of racing
performance, and now you're arguing that the idea of raising hct
from 42 to 49 is a "silly idea." Hmmm.

Hmm and all this time I thought I was arguing that Hct is only one small
part of the total performance equation and that YOU have been arguing that
Hct is so important that those who boost are evil criminals.

Here's a question for you: why did that Spanish doctor have such a long
and distinguished list of top racing talent as customers? They were
paying tens of thousands of euros to get their hct boosted above
their natural levels. Do you think it might be because, I don't know,
they thought they would get a performance boost? Or do you think
they were just idly passing the time, and decided to engage in behavior
that could get them kicked out of the TdF and banned for life from
racing for no good reason at all?

Riders do all sorts of stupid things that they believe will increase their
performance. Do you believe that eating pasta at breakfast is better than
eating white rice? I've actually seen that in writing.

Hct is nothing but the measure of how much O2 your blood can carry. But
consider this - the NORMAL blood oxygen even for those under high stress is
still above 95%. So Hct is not a very good indicator.

I googled this subject and found several articles on the topic. It's
incorrect to say that Hct is a measure of how much O2 your blood can
carry. The total number of RBCs is the measure of how much O2 your
blood can carry and studies have shown that increases in RBCs lead to
increases in performance (see link below). HCT alone is not an
indication of total RBCs. RBC transfusions, EPO or altitude training
will all increase both RBCs and Hct. Hct alone can not be used as an
indication of athletic potential.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?N21F1286D

Bret

From:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...l06/jul15news3

There's talk of a blood volume test. How would they do that?

'Heinrich called for better equipment for increased controls by the
National Anti-Doping Agency. There is a new blood volume test, which
could show blood doping, and complete blood and hormone analyses could
make it easier to see changes in those levels. "But all of these things
cost money," he said.'

Bret

Bret wrote:

There's talk of a blood volume test. How would they do that?


Easy, pump out the whole stuff, measure it, fill it in again.
They have already made a trial with Ekimov
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...824ce4652b1d67

Bret wrote:
There's talk of a blood volume test. How would they do that?

Ernst Noch wrote:
Easy, pump out the whole stuff, measure it, fill it in again.
They have already made a trial with Ekimov
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...824ce4652b1d67

And there's the revolutionary and much more cost effective mennonite leech
therapy as well.

in message . com, Ernst
Blofeld ') wrote:


Simon Brooke wrote:
He's a doper because he used a doctor in Spain to dope.

Do you /know/ that? Does anyone?

He might be entitled to a presumption of innocence in court,
but those of us outside the legal system can use their
common sense.

the doping increased his speed;

Assertion.

So why was he spending tens of thousands of euros and
engaging in career-ending behavior with
the Spanish doc if he didn't think it would make him faster?

Was he? Has evidence of any payment at all by Basso yet been produced?

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

See one nuclear war, you've seen them all.