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#11
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Ceramic drive chain
On 6/20/2019 7:09 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 11:31:10 -0700 (PDT), Chalo wrote: When I first saw this nonsense a few months ago, I recognized that their little strainer basket cassette thing would never be able to tolerate the side loads resulting from a person pedaling for propulsion. Building the cassette, bearings, and drive shaft rigid and strong enough to do the implied job would make the weight of the system uncompetitive with existing solutions. " CeramicSpeed's USA office, and the University of Colorado Boulder's Mechanical Engineering Department" developed the design so one might assume that it is likely that problems such as you describe were considered during the design phase. The problems were probably considered. That doesn't mean they were solved. I'm betting against that; but we'll see. It looks like the company is making its money from other enterprises entirely. CeramicSpeed bought Friction Facts, which got a lot of press (and was discussed here) with its chain lubrication service. They lubed it with paraffin wax plus a bit of teflon powder and had test data showing it was more efficient than chains slathered with traditional liquid lubes. CeramicSpeed sells "optimized" chains, which are probably just chains with that lube. They also sell ceramic bearings for (or in) things like bottom brackets, derailleur pulleys, headsets, and claim they will save you huge percentages of your friction watts. But your friction watts are pretty tiny to begin with. Dare I say it's like losing two pounds from a 180 pound bike+rider? I think the company is using it's cheese grinder drive disk to get press attention and drive buyers to its real business, which is pretty darned conventional. We'll see if this goes anywhere. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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#12
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Ceramic drive chain
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 22:42:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 6/20/2019 7:09 PM, John B. wrote: On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 11:31:10 -0700 (PDT), Chalo wrote: When I first saw this nonsense a few months ago, I recognized that their little strainer basket cassette thing would never be able to tolerate the side loads resulting from a person pedaling for propulsion. Building the cassette, bearings, and drive shaft rigid and strong enough to do the implied job would make the weight of the system uncompetitive with existing solutions. " CeramicSpeed's USA office, and the University of Colorado Boulder's Mechanical Engineering Department" developed the design so one might assume that it is likely that problems such as you describe were considered during the design phase. The problems were probably considered. That doesn't mean they were solved. I'm betting against that; but we'll see. It looks like the company is making its money from other enterprises entirely. CeramicSpeed bought Friction Facts, which got a lot of press (and was discussed here) with its chain lubrication service. They lubed it with paraffin wax plus a bit of teflon powder and had test data showing it was more efficient than chains slathered with traditional liquid lubes. CeramicSpeed sells "optimized" chains, which are probably just chains with that lube. They also sell ceramic bearings for (or in) things like bottom brackets, derailleur pulleys, headsets, and claim they will save you huge percentages of your friction watts. But your friction watts are pretty tiny to begin with. Dare I say it's like losing two pounds from a 180 pound bike+rider? I think the company is using it's cheese grinder drive disk to get press attention and drive buyers to its real business, which is pretty darned conventional. We'll see if this goes anywhere. You may well be right. The Eurobike award that they received was the 2018 award for "Concept", and their web site quite clearly says that so far they have built a prototype for continued study and that the patent had been submitted. And yes I'm sure that this does, to some extent, help sales. After all, how many here was even aware of CeramicSpeed and their products. By the way, I checked some of their prices and they are shocking! A set of two pulley wheels for a Shimano 9 - 10 speed rear derailer at about 199 EUR the set. Apparently they have been in business since about 2001 so either they are selling bearings or have very rich supporters :-) -- cheers, John B. |
#13
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Ceramic drive chain
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 13:26:21 +0000, db wrote:
Check this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM It all looks beautifully smooth etc. But I wonder, how does it stand up to hard pedalling, like standing on the pedals on a steep uphill? Is the force transfer still smooth and easy? Didn't we just thrash ths to death? Or am I skipping into parralel universes? Nit pick, not "invented, just a rehash" |
#14
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Ceramic drive chain
On 6/20/2019 9:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/20/2019 7:09 PM, John B. wrote: On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 11:31:10 -0700 (PDT), Chalo wrote: When I first saw this nonsense a few months ago, I recognized that their little strainer basket cassette thing would never be able to tolerate the side loads resulting from a person pedaling for propulsion. Building the cassette, bearings, and drive shaft rigid and strong enough to do the implied job would make the weight of the system uncompetitive with existing solutions. " CeramicSpeed's USA office, and the University of Colorado Boulder's Mechanical Engineering Department" developed the design so one might assume that it is likely that problems such as you describe were considered during the design phase. The problems were probably considered. That doesn't mean they were solved. I'm betting against that; but we'll see. It looks like the company is making its money from other enterprises entirely. CeramicSpeed bought Friction Facts, which got a lot of press (and was discussed here) with its chain lubrication service. They lubed it with paraffin wax plus a bit of teflon powder and had test data showing it was more efficient than chains slathered with traditional liquid lubes. CeramicSpeed sells "optimized" chains, which are probably just chains with that lube. They also sell ceramic bearings for (or in) things like bottom brackets, derailleur pulleys, headsets, and claim they will save you huge percentages of your friction watts. But your friction watts are pretty tiny to begin with. Dare I say it's like losing two pounds from a 180 pound bike+rider? I think the company is using it's cheese grinder drive disk to get press attention and drive buyers to its real business, which is pretty darned conventional. We'll see if this goes anywhere. In fairness, ceramic bearings aren't sold as 'light' so much as 'way mo rounder'[1]. My beef with that is the efficiency gain, given the surfaces they contact, is minuscule and a chipped ceramic ball is shrapnel. [1] as with mass, just because you can measure it doesn't make it necessarily significant in every application. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#15
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Ceramic drive chain
On Thursday, June 20, 2019 at 6:26:23 AM UTC-7, db wrote:
Check this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gQ1KRhesM It all looks beautifully smooth etc. But I wonder, how does it stand up to hard pedalling, like standing on the pedals on a steep uphill? Is the force transfer still smooth and easy? -- Dieter Britz Deiter - that is an idea bike and nothing more. Drive shaft bikes are less efficient than chain drive. Ceramic bearings are totally unnecessary on a bike since the difference in drag between a steel and ceramic bearing is so small that it is undetectable except at auto-motor speeds. If I was building a world speed record streamliner the tiny difference could make a mark, but not otherwise. |
#16
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Ceramic drive chain
On Thursday, June 20, 2019 at 11:31:13 AM UTC-7, Chalo wrote:
When I first saw this nonsense a few months ago, I recognized that their little strainer basket cassette thing would never be able to tolerate the side loads resulting from a person pedaling for propulsion. Building the cassette, bearings, and drive shaft rigid and strong enough to do the implied job would make the weight of the system uncompetitive with existing solutions. Well, the side loads would have to be absorbed by a much heavier frame strength in that area. |
#17
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Ceramic drive chain
On 6/20/2019 8:47 PM, John B. wrote:
snip By the way, I checked some of their prices and they are shocking! A set of two pulley wheels for a Shimano 9 - 10 speed rear derailer at about 199 EUR the set. Apparently they have been in business since about 2001 so either they are selling bearings or have very rich supporters :-) Did you look at the price for their chain lube?! $75 for a six ounce bottle. Recommended to reapply every 200km and to let the chain dry overnight after application. Users also report that you can't let the bottle get cold https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R2TTC12U7EUDI4/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B076CWBPX7. Still, for a racer that is doing a race of less than 200km it may have value if the test data is true, and they seem to have solved some of the issues that have plagued traditional wax-based lubes. |
#18
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Ceramic drive chain
eOn Fri, 21 Jun 2019 08:02:50 -0500, AMuzi
wrote: On 6/20/2019 9:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/20/2019 7:09 PM, John B. wrote: On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 11:31:10 -0700 (PDT), Chalo wrote: When I first saw this nonsense a few months ago, I recognized that their little strainer basket cassette thing would never be able to tolerate the side loads resulting from a person pedaling for propulsion. Building the cassette, bearings, and drive shaft rigid and strong enough to do the implied job would make the weight of the system uncompetitive with existing solutions. " CeramicSpeed's USA office, and the University of Colorado Boulder's Mechanical Engineering Department" developed the design so one might assume that it is likely that problems such as you describe were considered during the design phase. The problems were probably considered. That doesn't mean they were solved. I'm betting against that; but we'll see. It looks like the company is making its money from other enterprises entirely. CeramicSpeed bought Friction Facts, which got a lot of press (and was discussed here) with its chain lubrication service. They lubed it with paraffin wax plus a bit of teflon powder and had test data showing it was more efficient than chains slathered with traditional liquid lubes. CeramicSpeed sells "optimized" chains, which are probably just chains with that lube. They also sell ceramic bearings for (or in) things like bottom brackets, derailleur pulleys, headsets, and claim they will save you huge percentages of your friction watts. But your friction watts are pretty tiny to begin with. Dare I say it's like losing two pounds from a 180 pound bike+rider? I think the company is using it's cheese grinder drive disk to get press attention and drive buyers to its real business, which is pretty darned conventional. We'll see if this goes anywhere. In fairness, ceramic bearings aren't sold as 'light' so much as 'way mo rounder'[1]. My beef with that is the efficiency gain, given the surfaces they contact, is minuscule and a chipped ceramic ball is shrapnel. But are "ceramic" bearing known for chipping? [1] as with mass, just because you can measure it doesn't make it necessarily significant in every application. -- cheers, John B. |
#19
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Ceramic drive chain
On Saturday, June 22, 2019 at 6:08:50 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
eOn Fri, 21 Jun 2019 08:02:50 -0500, AMuzi wrote: Snipped In fairness, ceramic bearings aren't sold as 'light' so much as 'way mo rounder'[1]. My beef with that is the efficiency gain, given the surfaces they contact, is minuscule and a chipped ceramic ball is shrapnel. But are "ceramic" bearing known for chipping? [1] as with mass, just because you can measure it doesn't make it necessarily significant in every application. -- cheers, John B. I don't know about ceramic ball bearings chipping but one time when I opened up the cup and cone bottom bracket of an older bicycle I bought used the steel ball bearings were mostly disintegrated as was the steel retainer that used to hold them. No wonder the guy couldn't keep that bottom bracket adjusted. LOL VBEG Cheers |
#20
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Ceramic drive chain
On 6/22/2019 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
eOn Fri, 21 Jun 2019 08:02:50 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 6/20/2019 9:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 6/20/2019 7:09 PM, John B. wrote: On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 11:31:10 -0700 (PDT), Chalo wrote: When I first saw this nonsense a few months ago, I recognized that their little strainer basket cassette thing would never be able to tolerate the side loads resulting from a person pedaling for propulsion. Building the cassette, bearings, and drive shaft rigid and strong enough to do the implied job would make the weight of the system uncompetitive with existing solutions. " CeramicSpeed's USA office, and the University of Colorado Boulder's Mechanical Engineering Department" developed the design so one might assume that it is likely that problems such as you describe were considered during the design phase. The problems were probably considered. That doesn't mean they were solved. I'm betting against that; but we'll see. It looks like the company is making its money from other enterprises entirely. CeramicSpeed bought Friction Facts, which got a lot of press (and was discussed here) with its chain lubrication service. They lubed it with paraffin wax plus a bit of teflon powder and had test data showing it was more efficient than chains slathered with traditional liquid lubes. CeramicSpeed sells "optimized" chains, which are probably just chains with that lube. They also sell ceramic bearings for (or in) things like bottom brackets, derailleur pulleys, headsets, and claim they will save you huge percentages of your friction watts. But your friction watts are pretty tiny to begin with. Dare I say it's like losing two pounds from a 180 pound bike+rider? I think the company is using it's cheese grinder drive disk to get press attention and drive buyers to its real business, which is pretty darned conventional. We'll see if this goes anywhere. In fairness, ceramic bearings aren't sold as 'light' so much as 'way mo rounder'[1]. My beef with that is the efficiency gain, given the surfaces they contact, is minuscule and a chipped ceramic ball is shrapnel. But are "ceramic" bearing known for chipping? [1] as with mass, just because you can measure it doesn't make it necessarily significant in every application. -- cheers, John B. Generally with modern systems, no because the seals are effective. But once you have dirt inside they just shatter. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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