The dream is back

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...

Edward Dolan wrote:

[...]
USS ought to be outlawed. Who needs it. All steering for recumbents for
kids would be direct steering. Risers and handlebars would be mass
produced the same as always. No difference there.

Mr. Dolan's original statement was, "There is no reason on this earth why
a recumbent can't be just as cheap as any upright." Note that there was no
qualification that this statement was only for children's recumbents.

Mr. Sherman will never make it as an editor. He constantly does not include
the entire paragraph. Instead he pulls out a single sentence and then tells
us what he thinks that single sentence is about. Here are the entire
relevant paragraphs:

"Ken_in_Michgan" wrote in message
om...
[...]
If we want to get the youth into bents we need to find a company that
will make a inexpensive bent that can be mass-marketed in the Meijers
and Wal-Marts of the nation.

I have been saying exactly this same thing for the past 25 years. There is
no reason on this earth why a recumbent can't be just as cheap as any
upright. But the reason they aren't is because the kids don't want them.
There is no mass market for them like there is for uprights. This may be a
chicken or egg type of conundrum as you point out, but I think the kids will
really have to want them before they can ever be made inexpensive like
uprights.

Anyone who would care to read this can plainly see that it is mostly about
recumbents for kids and that is what I was exclusively focused on.

I have been after Mr. Sherman for years (at least it seems like years) to
not be editing me so severely. It is unfair and it is a cheap way to make a
point. I never do that sort of thing as I feel I can always make my points
best by including the complete relevant passages. I trust the reader to make
sense out of what I write. I most especially do not like to pull single
sentences out of paragraphs nor do I like to have it done to me.

I think in paragraphs and I think most other folks do too. Therefore,
include the complete paragraph if it is not too long. That way the reader
can make up his own mind whether or not you are playing fair and honest.

The best poster on this newsgroup ever was Scott (Freewheeling). He was
always very generous about quoting others and then he would include the
entire post at the bottom of his post. I think he was able to do this
because he was sure and confident in his opinions and in his argument. He
never struck me as the type who just wanted to score cheap points. I know I
could be more scholarly about my posts too, but I need other scholars to
bring out the best in me. When I am constantly in the gutter I become a
gutter fighter - and it does become wearisome after awhile.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Mark Leuck" wrote in message
news:24N5d.163998$3l3.120837@attbi_s03...

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
...

"Mark Leuck" wrote in message
news:48L5d.374461$8_6.272788@attbi_s04...

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
...

Yours in Ignorance,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Truer words were never spoken

And this from an idiot who does not believe in periods at the end of his
sentences! I leave it to the readers of this group as to who is ignorant
and
who is not ignorant.


I suspect they came to a conclusion a long time ago

Here is just one of many examples of what others think of me, oh you of the
absent periods:

Edward Dolan wrote:

I can think of one reason right off the bat. If there were a mass market
for
kid's recumbents, then recumbents for us adults would reflect this and they
would not be nearly so expensive as they are presently. How would you like
to pay a few hundred dollars for a good recumbent rather than a few
thousand?

That is indeed an excellent reason, and I thank you.


James S. Prine
http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Mark Leuck" wrote in message
news:zkN5d.374880$8_6.227415@attbi_s04...

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
...

Most monotube frames have several mandrel bends in them, or are welded
from several sections. Both are more expensive than a typical upright
frame.

Maybe most, but not all. I have a recumbent bike that consists of nothing
but a straight square main tube with a fork on the front end and a fork
on
the rear end for chain stays (Kowal KD-4). I believe a recumbent frame
could
be made even cheaper than an upright frame.

Could be is the word, you forget recumbent frames are for the most part
custom built, recumbent manufacturers do not have the luxury of being able
to produce tens or hundreds of thousands of frames in a given time, they
do
not possess the same (expensive) machinery. You cannot assume Rans makes
frames the same way Trek does with its automated robotics in frame

Hardware store chains are perfectly acceptable. I used to be able to get
these for less than $3.00 per chain. Bike shops are selling very high end
chains these days and are outrageously expensive.

Thats a joke right? for $3.00 you have a heavy crap chain that will likely
not last a month

Any recumbent seat with a modicum of comfort and durability will cost
more. A plastic upright saddle with carbon steel rails costs almost
nothing to manufacture.

Recumbent seats could be mass produced that would cost no more than a
conventional saddle. It you wanted the utmost in comfort, you could buy a
good foam for it at your own expense. Mass production is the key to
everything.

I do not see how any recumbent seat can be made for the same price as a
standard DF seat, not possible but again you miss the point, mass
production
does not exist in the recumbent world to the same extent that it does in
the
standard bike world.

Uprights come in a variety of price ranges depending on quality, but
there
really are no cheap recumbents. Until there are, recumbents will be at a
permanent disadvantage

I agree and to be honest I don't want everyone else riding my type of bike

A recumbent will require more adjustment range in the steering than an
upright for proper fit. This will result in greater expense.

Usually, a recumbent will be one size fits all. The RANS Rocket would be
the
perfect example. That is not true of uprights. The result will be a
lesser
expense for recumbents despite the adjustments needed for fit.

How so? It costs money making that adjusting boom, chain tensioners, seat
brackets etc, having different sized frames in the DF world means nothing
to
the manufacturer because they have such a huge market pool

Kids do not need much quality in their bikes. The kind of bikes that
Wal-Mart sells for around $100. are perfect for kids.

True and I had no problems paying that much later in my 20's, I bet Huffy
made several hundred thousand bikes in that time period, guess what the
combined output of all recumbent manufacturers was this year as a
comparison?

Recumbents for kids
could be made equally as cheap if there was a demand for them. But there
isn't, and so they aren't made. It is really just that simple.

It isn't that simple, if it were we'd have seen them by now, the demand
isn't there because 99% of the population has never heard of or seen a
recumbent bicycle not because of price

Well, this is what happens when someone jumps in on a thread without having
read it from the beginning. Tom and I are talking about IF there were mass
production of recumbents based on mass demand for them, especially by the
kids, how they would compare in price to uprights. He is arguing that they
would be more expensive to manufacture regardless of the mass production. I
am arguing that they would not be any more expensive than uprights and in
fact may well be cheaper. We are assuming mass production based on mass
demand for the purposes of this argument.

When you get up to speed on what the subject is about, come back and visit
us and I will be delighted to defend my opinions.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan wrote:

Most likely just another flash in the pan. Here today - gone tomorrow.

Been around for a couple of years already, appear to be going from
strength to strength.

is not part of their kid culture. The only kids you ever see on recumbents
are those who have been influenced by their parents, usually their father.
Not until kids are being influenced by other kids will the situation ever
change.

Hmmmm. Recently in Edinburgh a chap turns up at a meeting of cyclists
with his daughter, both on their upright bikes. Daughter is enchanted
by recumbents on display, asks to have a go. Dad is not world's richest
man and knows it is not in his financial interests to encourage this,
but daughter later announced to mum that dad will get her a KMX. Dad
knows nothing about this!
Doesn't fit in at all well with your assertion, but I was there and
watched it happen.

You speak and write the language they way you want and I will do the same.

But what would the people who actually live here know about who they
are? Silly me!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:

Most likely just another flash in the pan. Here today - gone tomorrow.

Been around for a couple of years already, appear to be going from
strength to strength.

is not part of their kid culture. The only kids you ever see on
recumbents are those who have been influenced by their parents, usually
their father. Not until kids are being influenced by other kids will the
situation ever change.

Hmmmm. Recently in Edinburgh a chap turns up at a meeting of cyclists
with his daughter, both on their upright bikes. Daughter is enchanted by
recumbents on display, asks to have a go. Dad is not world's richest man
and knows it is not in his financial interests to encourage this, but
daughter later announced to mum that dad will get her a KMX. Dad knows
nothing about this!
Doesn't fit in at all well with your assertion, but I was there and
watched it happen.

Peter, if and when I see kids riding recumbents I will become a believer.
But I have been around recumbents for over 25 years now I see absolutely
nothing happening. I will most likely go to my grave convinced that I am
right and recumbents will always be only for the select few.

You speak and write the language they way you want and I will do the
same.

But what would the people who actually live here know about who they are?
Silly me!

You do not know how to edit. No one but you and me will know what you are
talking about. Have you no consideration for others who may be reading this
thread? This is Usenet, not email.

American English is not exactly the same as English English. Since America
is the sole remaining super power in the world I believe American English
will always take precedence. Therefore, I make no apologies for the way I
speak and write the language. I even pulled something out of a dictionary
for know-it-alls like you. You must be Scotch rather than English since you
are mule headed and incapable of learning anything.

I offered you a bit of information about the English and Scotch settlement
of this area and a place name having to do with Dundee and all I get from
you is some crap about how Scotch should be Scots. Excuse me all the way to
hell and back for even trying to be pleasant. I will now revert to my usual
mode of being purposefully unpleasant so dunderheads like you will not be
disappointed.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan wrote:
"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:

Young folks wouldn't be caught dead on a recumbent.

You've clearly been studying the cover of the latest issue of
VeloVision /really/ closely then...
http://www.velovision.co.uk/cgi-bin/...l?storynum=638

It is most likely the soap box racing car thing where the father is
the one doing all the work and doing all the influencing. However, if
kids are riding recumbents around on their own for reasons other than
racing, then perhaps things are starting to change.

Dunno who Sacha's old man is, but he hasn't accompanied Junior to any of our
races. Young Master Fournier (14), the cover youth of the VeloVision in
question, attends races with the BikeFix[1] Recumbent Posse.

While it's true that the remaining juniors who regularly attend BHPC events
are the offspring - and, interestingly, nearly all the daughters - of racing
parents, I suspect that the KMX will start to appeal to those from
non-recumbent (but still cycling) families as it frequently appears at
non-recumbent specific events such as the Mildenhall and York rallies.


1 - C. London's premier Dark Side specialists
--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
================================================== =========
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
================================================== =========

"Mark Leuck" wrote
"Jon Meinecke" wrote in message

"Bikes don't go slow (or fast), People do!" %^)

For the most part yes although I could never get close
to that average on my Vision R-50, many recumbents
won't do that no matter the rider because they aren't
designed for it

Yes. Bikes make a difference. I still ride my BikeE from
time to time but I'm *faster* on my TourEasy. I'd *hope*
to be faster on a lighter bike or different design,-- perhaps
a low racer or high racer,-- but I don't expect I would
be a true go-fast cyclist on any bike. Not my interest.

No question, I'm sure people in my area consider me
the odd one on the Optima Baron, I've also had comments
like "Well that thing is more aerodynamic so of course you
are faster" which merely tells me they are on
outdated technology

It' an interestingly consistent inconsistency. %^)

Recumbents are slower unless they're faster, in
which case, it's not the rider, but some aerodynamic
advantage. %^P Ban 'em! %^P

I'm faster on my recumbent than
*I* was on my upright and I have better stamina and I'm
having more fun!

Well I'm 44 so it is possible

To have more fun? Of Course!

My top speed is 45.8mph going downhill, loaded for tour
in northern New Mexico mountains. Could have gone faster
in several places, but brakes were a necessary part of
keeping it "fun" for me, at least!! %^O

I look at it this way

1. Young adult sees a recumbent and is impressed
2. Young adult looks up that recumbent on the web
and finds a dealer
3. Young adult goes to that dealer and sees the recumbent

Not many LBS in DFW carry them, of course.

Richardson Bike Mart still had new BikeEs for sale
almost two years after BikeE went out of business.
Something tells me they don't do much recumbent
business. %^) Plano Cycling and Fitness now carries
Bacchetta, Easy Racer and EZ recumbents. Knowledge
of sales staff regarding recumbents at either place
is not broad. ( I won't tell you which place tried
to tell me Shimano no longer made multi-release
cleats...)

4. Young adult looks at the price tag
5. Young adult buys a Trek wedgie instead

Part of the reason they won't buy them is ignorance, part of
it is price and most of it is availability of the product which is
scarce depend on the brand

Yes. Price, particularly entry-level, is a large factor. And for
those people not price sensitive, looking for a US$1500-2500
bike, they're generally looking for a road bike because they
are competitive formally or informally, or want to be.

I'd invite you up to ride the rural roads just up the road from
Dallas where I ride, but I'm afraid I fit the stereotype of
recumbent riders.

Where are you at and what bike do you ride?

I ride mainly my Tour Easy for the last 6500 miles
in and around Denton.

There are lots of nice, rural, scenic 20-50 mile routes
around Denton: Aubrey, Pilot Point, Sanger, Krum,
north, east and west; Argyle, Roanoke, Ponder, Justin,
south and west. Some decent hills and often winds.
Lots of two-lane roads with rolling hills, old bridges,
trees, and light traffic. Let me know if you're
interested and I can map some my favorite routes.

If you want to mix it up with the roadies, there's a
group of cyclists who regularly ride Saturday mornings
from Denton Bicycle Shop. I've never ridden with that
group, but have been passed by them (going up hill).
If you average 20+mph for 40 miles, you'd leave
most of them in your dust, I think. %^P

Organized/supported Rallies:

There's a bike rally sponsored by the municipal power
company on October 9.

http://www.dmepower.com/PowerRally2004_bw.pdf

It's a pretty good ride (150-250 riders) with 10, 30,
and 60 mile options. Not really very many "go-fast
groups" in the last two years, but a few. Last two
times I've ridden the 30 route with 5-6 friends who
don't ride more than a few weekends a year. Last year
I put in about 45 miles riding the 30 mile route circling
back and forth between the riders in our group as they
got spread out over 2-3 miles.

There's also the Denton Turkey Roll rally on
November 20 benefiting charities of the Denton
Breakfast Kiwanis.

http://www.turkeyroll.org/ (still 2003)

There are generally a number of cycling clubs and
"serious" cyclists at this event (RBM guys on their
CF DF's with shaved legs!). It's 300+ riders usually
and has riders of all skill levels and speeds. Usually
5-10 recumbents (RANS, Bacchetta, EasyRacers,
BikeE,...)

Two years ago the winds made the middle leg of the
60 mile route *very* challenging. I don't particularly
like the last leg route,-- too much traffic on FM road
back into Krum.

Jon Meinecke

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:10:45 -0500, "Edward Dolan"
wrote in message :

if and when I see kids riding recumbents I will become a believer.

Go to an HPV race meet, then. Numerous kids on 'bents to be seen,
some of them racing. All ages (youngest was about 7 as I recall).

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:29:54 +0100, "Dave Larrington"
wrote in message :

Dunno who Sacha's old man is, but he hasn't accompanied Junior to any of our
races. Young Master Fournier (14), the cover youth of the VeloVision in
question, attends races with the BikeFix[1] Recumbent Posse.

And Sacha is seriously quick :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 22:14:39 -0500, Mr Ed. wrote in
message :

Well, this beholder sees that as an insult. The idea that anybody who
disagrees with you is stupid or anti-intellectual is called arrogance
where I come from.

Mr. Sherman, when he is not joking around, is one of the few individuals
here on ARBR who knows how to meet an argument. There are a few others here
too who go to the substance of what is being said.

Oh come on, what substance? Most of the arguments you get involved in
are based on extreme right-wing political cant or dogmatic and easily
disproved assertions. But we all know you by now, and we know that ou
are here for the "five pound argument", not particularly caring with
wom or about what I sometimes suspect that you take a stance simply
to be contentious because you have nothing beter to do.

Most of the rest of you
just cry like babies because you disagree with what I am saying, but you do
not want to meet my argument on a fair playing field, which is what I
consider a newsgroup to be.

Eh? Last time I recall having an argument with you, you said that you
didn't believe in evidence because you knew you were right.

I have never called anyone stupid who didn't call me stupid first.

A wide-open field :-)

My arrogance is 90% of what my humor is all about.

Humour? No, sorry, you're not making sense here. I have a highly
developed sense of humour; you are merely contentious. That's why I
leave you on auto-ignore.

I went to an HPV race meet today. Ed, I recommend you try that. They
are very sociable and any old 'bent is welcome. We even raced on our
upwrong triplet. Get out and get a life!

I am very sociable myself when I am out in the real world, but a newsgroup
is not the real world. It is for argument and controversy - or do you see it
differently than I do?

Yes. If I want an argument about politics with someone like you I'll
visit alt.politics.right-wing-zealotry. You can argue bikes all you
like, it's the constant political flatulence that ****es me off.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University