Entering the queue at a stop sign

As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous? I know it's
not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a
lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
make two crossings?

Good question...

fwiw, for me it depends on how long the line. If the line is only a
few cars, I take my place at the back and wait my turn. This is safest
because I take the lane. I'm not beside anyone who could potentially
turn right (I'm in the US)

If the line gets longer, I ride to the front and stop. The latter move
is risky because of the possibility of a right turner. I watch for
turn signals, the angle of the front wheels, and body language of the
driver of the vehicle to my left.

larry
--
To reply by e-mail, be polite. Rudeness will get you nowhere.

On 23 Jul 2003 14:53:55 -0700, Roly Poly Man
wrote:

As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous? I know it's
not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a
lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.

I try to avoid roads like that. However, when in that situation, I don't
wait in the queue; I carefully ride the right shoulder -- I don't fly.

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

This is appropriate sometimes; make a judgement call.

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
make two crossings?

Again, I try to avoid such roads; but on smaller roads, with a straight
lane and a left-turn-only (or even a right-turn-only) lane, I'll go ahead
and enter the queue between cars, and wait at the traffic light/stop sign
just as if I were driving. I do make every attempt not to hold up traffic
with my slow speed, and I accomplish proper speeds for these situations
pretty well.

Drivers don't seem to be ****ed off about it.

My question: Going straight when there's a right-turn-only lane. This is a
situation where I feel both danger and my slowing powered-vehicle drivers.
Consider:
-that I may have to violate the right-turn-only lane, which is dangerous
in two ways. One, traffic expects me to turn right. Two, oncoming traffic
visibility is often blocked by a vehicle turning left.
-if I don't do that, I have to cross that right-turn-only lane, into the
straight/left-turn lane. This means merging into potentially much faster
vehicular traffic, and then forcing them to wait behind.

Then there's the issue of my terrible clipless pedals that I can never seem
to get into. Now I'm holding up traffic AND embarassing myself. Gotta get
something better than Wellgo R4; maybe something in an SPD, or for ultra-
cool looks, egg beaters or m2Racer Orbs...

--
Rick Onanian

Larry Schuldt wrote in
:
If the line gets longer, I ride to the front and stop.

When I do this, I don't stop in front of the first car. I'll stop between
the 1st and 2nd car or to the side of the first car. The driver in the 1st
car might be staring at the green light and not see you; or might get ****ed
that you are blocking his path. The 2nd car is already blocked, so won't
mind as much.

In article ,
says...
As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous? I know it's
not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a
lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

You've never seen me, then; that's how I do it. I was almost right-
hooked (which is the Cyclist's term for what you described above) a
couple of months ago, and since then, I always take the lane at stop
light or stop sign. I can accelerate as fast as the car in front of me
and stay fast enough through the intersection that I don't delay the car
behind me and get him ****ed at me.


Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
make two crossings?

Traffic and speeds permitting, I move over into the left lane just as a
car would. If the traffic is too heavy or going too fast for that to
feel safe, then I pretend I'm a pedestrian and make two crossings in the
cross-walks, making sure to go at pedestrian speed so as not to throw
off a car which might be turning across the cross-walks. It only takes
an extra minute or so usually, so doesn't cost me much.

YMMV!

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

"Roly Poly Man" wrote in message
om...
On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

I always get into the queue at a stop sign. It's first come, first served.
If there is a right-turn-only lane, it's especially important to get into
the correct lane so that traffic is sorted properly based on destination. I
want right-turning drivers to pass to my right if I am not going that way.
Destination positioning is more important than anything else at
intersections.

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
make two crossings?

If I can find a good traffic gap, I merge all the way to the left (near the
center of the road) in preparation to get into the left turn lane. If I
don't feel comfortable doing this, I go straight and get off the bike to
cross the street as a pedestrian, or at least to dismount to replace the
bike in the correct lane to proceed from the cross street.

Steve Goodridge
http://humantransport.org/bicycledriving/

In article ,
Roly Poly Man wrote:
As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous? I know it's
not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a
lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

If the road ahead is narrow, I'll wait my turn in line.
I don't want to pass a bunch of cars at a stop and then
hold them up.

Otherwise I'll ride up the shoulder to the stop sign, and
go through after stopping (or nearly stopping without unclipping).
I go through with a car from my road. That way I have "cover"
from the left and I don't take my own cycle at the stop
and slow the other drivers.

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
make two crossings?

Only in dire emergency.

Use the left turn lane.

Eric

As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

It depends on the conditions. Filtering is legal on either side
where I ride (DC) but that doesn't mean it's smart. Ninety percent
of the time I'll queue with the other vehicles.

Since I mostly ride in the city center at rush hour (commuting)
there is little or no speed differential involved. There is a
significant acceleration differential, though. I'll get cars
that swerve around me only to come to a complete stop half a block
later. Pointless waste of energy.

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous?

Yep.

I know it's not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have
often seen a car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist)
using a lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.

Yep.

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

It's regularly done by me, but I'm an obnoxious VC Nazi. :-)

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
make two crossings?

Merge left one lane at a time and keep checking six. Well
ahead of the intersection. Set up the turn as you would in a
car. Better yet, plan ahead and be in the correct lane from
the beginning. Use a lot of hand signals.

Practice on a deserted road like a city center arterial, on
a Sunday or at night. Preferably the same route you intend to
ride in prime time. It really helps to know the hazards before
you encounter them in full on traffic.

The goal is to minimize the surprise factor.

ANY road situation can be mastered by good intelligence, strategy
and tactics. And anyone can learn this approach.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
in.edu__________

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:53:55 +0000, Roly Poly Man wrote:

As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there is
a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

What is wrong with joining the line?

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right up to
the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous?

Yes -- if there is no clear provision for cyclists.

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with vehicles.
At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

Why not? If you wanted to be treated like part of the traffic rather than
something blocking traffic, treat yourself like part of the traffic.

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical busy 4-lane
or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and make two crossings?

That's what left-turn lanes are for.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | We have a record of conquest, colonization and expansion
_`\(,_ | unequalled by any people in the Nineteenth Century. We are not
(_)/ (_) | to be curbed now. --Henry Cabot Lodge, 1895

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:20:50 +0000, Rick Onanian wrote:

My question: Going straight when there's a right-turn-only lane. This is a
situation where I feel both danger and my slowing powered-vehicle drivers.
Consider:
-that I may have to violate the right-turn-only lane, which is dangerous
in two ways. One, traffic expects me to turn right. Two, oncoming traffic
visibility is often blocked by a vehicle turning left.
-if I don't do that, I have to cross that right-turn-only lane, into the
straight/left-turn lane. This means merging into potentially much faster
vehicular traffic, and then forcing them to wait behind.

You need to ride in the right-most lane that is consistent with your
direction of travel. If you slow someone down a bit, that is far better
than getting hit by someone turning right because you were going straight
in a right-turn lane.

Use the lanes like a vehicle -- you are riding one.


Then there's the issue of my terrible clipless pedals that I can never
seem to get into. Now I'm holding up traffic AND embarassing myself. Gotta
get something better than Wellgo R4; maybe something in an SPD, or for
ultra- cool looks, egg beaters or m2Racer Orbs...

Side issue. I did this with double toe straps and cleats, on a fixed
gear. Don't let clipping in get in the way of negotiating traffic.


--

David L. Johnson

__o | "What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
_`\(,_ | What are you on?" --Lance Armstrong
(_)/ (_) |