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Chain alignment friction losses



 
 
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  #21  
Old June 16th 19, 08:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default Chain alignment friction losses -- Dangers of Nose Blowing

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 9:20:22 AM UTC-4, news18 wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 08:53:31 -0700, jbeattie wrote:

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 11:54:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:


There may be an opening on Ineos.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...me-doubt-tour-

de-france-crash-criterium-hospital-injured

Must have been a strong wind -- I kind of doubt he took both hands off
the bars to blow his nose.


to borrow from other threads; rubbish on the road?
Such as an errent stone.


Quite possible or a bit of loose sand or a small patch of oil. I wonder how deep a section his wheels had and if that contributed to the crash?

Cheers
Ads
  #22  
Old June 17th 19, 04:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Chain alignment friction losses

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 1:46:40 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2019 um 17:41 schrieb Mark J.:
On 6/13/2019 1:06 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2019 um 01:21 schrieb John B.:
As an aside, 250 watts is probably as high, or perhaps higher, than
the usual recreational cyclist normally produces.

My health insurance says 2 watts per kilogram body mass is a healthy,
above average value.Â* So a normal recreational cyclist is likely to
have a sustained output on the order of 100W (typical female, 50kg) to
150W (typical male, 75kg).


I am fascinated that your /health insurance/ has /anything/ to say on
this matter.Â* Is it a European thing?


I'm pretty sure that every health
insurance company I've had has been completely oblivious to the
insured's power output, although height and weight are of intense
interest to them.Â* Can you give more context about how you found this,
and what the company has to say?


In Germany, health insurances offer all kinds of subsidized "healthy
living" trainings to their customers (e.g. "stress prevention",
"balanced eating"). They also run "healthy living" information stalls
on festivals (like the U.S. "State fairs") and for large employers.

As part of the "bike to work" month, my employer offered anonymous
"fitness checks" at lunch time. One was measuring the lung exhaling
capacity, one was load tests on a stationary ergometer (what power
output keeps your pulse below 100?); the result of both tests was
print-out showing your individual measures on a range red - yellow -
green, plus an individual link to an internet site proposing simple
"5-minute office work-outs". As my results were green on both tests, I
don't know what exercises they would have suggested for a power output
below par )-;

Rolf


Quite to my surprise, we are getting more and more bicycle activists that are pushing for more and more bicycle facilities. While this usually centers around bicycle lanes on streets it also includes building bicycle paths on rails-to-trails. In New York the entire state is covered in these off-street thoroughfares. In California they aren't rare but they could certainly be a great deal better I would like them to close down the old Grapevine since there is a 10 lane freeway that replaced it. Instead these old side roads continue to be open to traffic and in cases of traffic jams which are common in California, you can have cars and even heavy trucks trying to do highway speeds on these rather poorly maintained and shoulderless side roads. And the cops certainly aren't going to make the slightest efforts to control unsafe driving practices.

Highway 1 in California runs the length of the state directly on the seashore. This is the perfect place to ride but there isn't a shoulder over a great deal of it and the traffic is RV's and such driving like they are late for an appointment.

But it is really good to see a growth in bicycle participation. Now if it would only translate to increased bicycle sales. More and more bicycle shops are going out of business of cutting staff to the bare bones. One local shop has so far taken over three weeks to replace an Ultegra rear derailleur and cable set. Who would take any work to him?
  #23  
Old June 17th 19, 04:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Chain alignment friction losses

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 7:37:09 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 2:02:05 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 1:07:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2019 um 01:21 schrieb John B.:
As an aside, 250 watts is probably as high, or perhaps higher, than
the usual recreational cyclist normally produces.

My health insurance says 2 watts per kilogram body mass is a healthy,
above average value. So a normal recreational cyclist is likely to have
a sustained output on the order of 100W (typical female, 50kg) to 150W
(typical male, 75kg).

Rolf


I'm nearly 75 and 6'4" and have fattened up to 190 lbs with something of a small roll around my middle and can sustain 350 watts for over 10 minutes and a continuous 250 watts. Since everyone on two wheels seems faster than me I have to wonder about that claim.


Me, too. Skip the formulas and get a real power meter -- assuming you're that interested. Stages. https://store.stagescycling.com/stages-power-meters It's the best (product placement for my son's employer). Personally, I have zero instrumentation, although I do swipe data from my riding buddies and then mark it up 25% for age and inability.

-- Jay Beattie.


I think that the only real power meter to use is a rear hub. The cranks require two cranks to be instrumented or one and a guess. But you can't get Chinese wheelsets that way and the American made wheelsets with a power meter cost $2K.

So instead what I do is pick a 10K section of road and do a two way time trial and put it into a power calculator http://bikecalculator.com/wattsUS.html
  #24  
Old June 17th 19, 04:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Chain alignment friction losses

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 8:27:48 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 10:02:05 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 1:07:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2019 um 01:21 schrieb John B.:
As an aside, 250 watts is probably as high, or perhaps higher, than
the usual recreational cyclist normally produces.

My health insurance says 2 watts per kilogram body mass is a healthy,
above average value. So a normal recreational cyclist is likely to have
a sustained output on the order of 100W (typical female, 50kg) to 150W
(typical male, 75kg).

Rolf


I'm nearly 75 and 6'4" and have fattened up to 190 lbs with something of a small roll around my middle and can sustain 350 watts for over 10 minutes and a continuous 250 watts. Since everyone on two wheels seems faster than me I have to wonder about that claim.


Holy ****, I'm not cycling with you. Never mind the 350W: I can do that briefly, but 250W continuous... the very attempt would kill most men my age that I know. I'd probably survive, because I'm a lifelong endurance athlete, but my therapists and my cardio would dump on me from a dizzy height because they don't want me to exceed 80 per cent of max heart rate more than momentarily.

AJ
I'm faster than anybody, downhill that is


I just recalculated and it is more like 218 watts on a good day. And this is a 20 km distance. Continuous power normally now is only 100 watts. But as I say, everyone and their dog is faster than I am. I did do 20 K in 20 minutes into a 20 mph headwind last year. But it looks like if I do not train for even one month I can't get that level back again.

The problem appears to be such a hell of a large difference from two years ago and now. If I use the figures out of my log from then and compare them to now it's shocking. Do you suppose that it was from being competitive with my friend who has since moved to Phoenix? Or just natural aging? But such a large difference in two years seems pretty strange to me. I would have thought that I would see a gradual decline instead of a sharp drop.
  #25  
Old June 17th 19, 05:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Chain alignment friction losses

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 9:58:37 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 11:02:05 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 1:07:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2019 um 01:21 schrieb John B.:
As an aside, 250 watts is probably as high, or perhaps higher, than
the usual recreational cyclist normally produces.

My health insurance says 2 watts per kilogram body mass is a healthy,
above average value. So a normal recreational cyclist is likely to have
a sustained output on the order of 100W (typical female, 50kg) to 150W
(typical male, 75kg).

Rolf


I'm nearly 75 and 6'4" and have fattened up to 190 lbs with something of a small roll around my middle and can sustain 350 watts for over 10 minutes and a continuous 250 watts. Since everyone on two wheels seems faster than me I have to wonder about that claim.


I said it before Tom, with those numbers you are Pro Team material. I did a reasonable hard ride today, 100 km 1350 m elevation. I managed an average of 188 Watt for almost 4 hours, measured with a power meter. My Garmin detected a new FTP setting of 215 Watt today. I'm 62 yr old and weigh 75 kg at the moment. I'm certainly not Pro Team material ;-).

Lou


A couple of weeks ago I did 52 miles and 3200 ft of climbing in under 4 hours. Back in April I believe I did 64 miles in under 4 hours with the same amount of climbing and I was dropping everyone but the racer wannabes on the climbs.

Also, I don't like flying past people as if they were beginners. I feel that is insulting them so I try to ride behind them if I catch up unless they're just too slow for me.

Actual power output is an unknown and I don't believe it much matters since it would be only significant for a specific ride. I went flat on the April century 5 miles out and dragged in dead. On the Grizzly Peak Century I felt so awful at the start that half way in I changed from the 76 mile course to the 54 mile course because the longer one had this killer climb that I didn't think I could make it up with the gears I have. The climbs on that course other than that one seemed to me WAY more difficult this year than two years ago. I don't know if that is my fitness or perhaps a serious lack of sleep effecting me that day. Near the end I actually started riding better than near the beginning.

Anyway, I'm getting concerned that my fitness disappears so rapidly that a week off the bike totally puts me back to ground zero.
  #26  
Old June 17th 19, 05:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Chain alignment friction losses -- Dangers of Nose Blowing

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 12:13:06 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 9:20:22 AM UTC-4, news18 wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 08:53:31 -0700, jbeattie wrote:

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 11:54:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:


There may be an opening on Ineos.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...me-doubt-tour-

de-france-crash-criterium-hospital-injured

Must have been a strong wind -- I kind of doubt he took both hands off
the bars to blow his nose.


to borrow from other threads; rubbish on the road?
Such as an errent stone.


Quite possible or a bit of loose sand or a small patch of oil. I wonder how deep a section his wheels had and if that contributed to the crash?

Cheers


There is something else going on. Remember how many of the riders are now ending up with absolutely awful lines through the corners? One of those videos had a Pro blaming it entirely on disk brakes. It isn't clear to me how that would be but I do know that these guys didn't ride like that before disks.

Do you suppose that they are descending faster now with more confidence in the braking ability of the disks and hence often brake too late and have to straighten out the turns giving them those terrible lines through the corners?
  #27  
Old June 17th 19, 06:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Chain alignment friction losses -- Dangers of Nose Blowing

On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 9:16:47 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 12:13:06 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 9:20:22 AM UTC-4, news18 wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 08:53:31 -0700, jbeattie wrote:

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 11:54:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:

There may be an opening on Ineos.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...me-doubt-tour-
de-france-crash-criterium-hospital-injured

Must have been a strong wind -- I kind of doubt he took both hands off
the bars to blow his nose.

to borrow from other threads; rubbish on the road?
Such as an errent stone.


Quite possible or a bit of loose sand or a small patch of oil. I wonder how deep a section his wheels had and if that contributed to the crash?

Cheers


There is something else going on. Remember how many of the riders are now ending up with absolutely awful lines through the corners? One of those videos had a Pro blaming it entirely on disk brakes. It isn't clear to me how that would be but I do know that these guys didn't ride like that before disks.

Do you suppose that they are descending faster now with more confidence in the braking ability of the disks and hence often brake too late and have to straighten out the turns giving them those terrible lines through the corners?


No. He was on a TT bike. Probably something like this: http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com/201...ginali_670.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.
  #28  
Old June 17th 19, 08:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default Chain alignment friction losses -- Dangers of Nose Blowing

On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 1:57:33 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 9:16:47 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 12:13:06 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 9:20:22 AM UTC-4, news18 wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 08:53:31 -0700, jbeattie wrote:

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 11:54:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:

There may be an opening on Ineos.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...me-doubt-tour-
de-france-crash-criterium-hospital-injured

Must have been a strong wind -- I kind of doubt he took both hands off
the bars to blow his nose.

to borrow from other threads; rubbish on the road?
Such as an errent stone.

Quite possible or a bit of loose sand or a small patch of oil. I wonder how deep a section his wheels had and if that contributed to the crash?

Cheers


There is something else going on. Remember how many of the riders are now ending up with absolutely awful lines through the corners? One of those videos had a Pro blaming it entirely on disk brakes. It isn't clear to me how that would be but I do know that these guys didn't ride like that before disks.

Do you suppose that they are descending faster now with more confidence in the braking ability of the disks and hence often brake too late and have to straighten out the turns giving them those terrible lines through the corners?


No. He was on a TT bike. Probably something like this: http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com/201...ginali_670.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.


If that's so then the deep rim, the gusty wind and a hand or hands off the bar and Froome's build all likely contributed to his crash. I think that perhaps he removed his hand(s) from the handlebar and THEN the wind gusted and down he went.

I hope he makes a full recovery.

Cheers
  #29  
Old June 18th 19, 04:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Chain alignment friction losses

On 6/17/2019 11:55 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 8:27:48 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 10:02:05 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 1:07:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2019 um 01:21 schrieb John B.:
As an aside, 250 watts is probably as high, or perhaps higher, than
the usual recreational cyclist normally produces.

My health insurance says 2 watts per kilogram body mass is a healthy,
above average value. So a normal recreational cyclist is likely to have
a sustained output on the order of 100W (typical female, 50kg) to 150W
(typical male, 75kg).

Rolf

I'm nearly 75 and 6'4" and have fattened up to 190 lbs with something of a small roll around my middle and can sustain 350 watts for over 10 minutes and a continuous 250 watts. Since everyone on two wheels seems faster than me I have to wonder about that claim.


Holy ****, I'm not cycling with you. Never mind the 350W: I can do that briefly, but 250W continuous... the very attempt would kill most men my age that I know. I'd probably survive, because I'm a lifelong endurance athlete, but my therapists and my cardio would dump on me from a dizzy height because they don't want me to exceed 80 per cent of max heart rate more than momentarily.

AJ
I'm faster than anybody, downhill that is


I just recalculated and it is more like 218 watts on a good day. And this is a 20 km distance. Continuous power normally now is only 100 watts. But as I say, everyone and their dog is faster than I am. I did do 20 K in 20 minutes into a 20 mph headwind last year. But it looks like if I do not train for even one month I can't get that level back again.

The problem appears to be such a hell of a large difference from two years ago and now. If I use the figures out of my log from then and compare them to now it's shocking. Do you suppose that it was from being competitive with my friend who has since moved to Phoenix? Or just natural aging? But such a large difference in two years seems pretty strange to me. I would have thought that I would see a gradual decline instead of a sharp drop.


For many years, I occasionally rode with a tough guy who was over 20
years older than me. I was faster than him, but not by much.

But I recall about the time he hit 70 or so, he told me "I just can't
get into shape this year!" For him, it was a sharp drop.

The good news is the guy is now in his mid-90s, he's still healthy, and
while he now rides slow, he's still riding.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #30  
Old June 21st 19, 10:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Chain alignment friction losses -- Dangers of Nose Blowing

On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 10:57:33 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 9:16:47 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 12:13:06 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 9:20:22 AM UTC-4, news18 wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 08:53:31 -0700, jbeattie wrote:

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 11:54:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:

There may be an opening on Ineos.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...me-doubt-tour-
de-france-crash-criterium-hospital-injured

Must have been a strong wind -- I kind of doubt he took both hands off
the bars to blow his nose.

to borrow from other threads; rubbish on the road?
Such as an errent stone.

Quite possible or a bit of loose sand or a small patch of oil. I wonder how deep a section his wheels had and if that contributed to the crash?

Cheers


There is something else going on. Remember how many of the riders are now ending up with absolutely awful lines through the corners? One of those videos had a Pro blaming it entirely on disk brakes. It isn't clear to me how that would be but I do know that these guys didn't ride like that before disks.

Do you suppose that they are descending faster now with more confidence in the braking ability of the disks and hence often brake too late and have to straighten out the turns giving them those terrible lines through the corners?


No. He was on a TT bike. Probably something like this: http://cdn.media.cyclingnews.com/201...ginali_670.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.


These guys are so damned fast that all you have to do is blink and you've covered so much road that you could make 100 mistakes in the time it takes you to wipe your nose with the section of glove designed to do that.
 




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