Rear-View Mirrors

In article ,
"Roger Zoul" writes:

"Tom Keats" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Roger Zoul" writes:

Shoulder checking both to the left and right without
swerving is an easily-enough acquired bicycle riding
basic skill (with practice.) Once one has the skill,
one doesn't really need to rely upon redundant
accoutrements along with their limitations, in order
to lazily avoid a little initial effort and practice.
And it seems to me, the more skills a rider acquires,
the more empowered he or she becomes.

Looking at the thing itself instead of its reflection
gives the advantage of depth perception, and avoids
certain optical effects impinged by mirrors, such as
image darkening, washing-out of certain colours, and
distorted image sizes ("objects in mirror are closer
than they appear.")

Wow....spew total nonsense. A simple glance at a mirror is enough to
know
all you need for the given situation. It not as though you need to read a
PhD disseration in a mirror.

If one is going to use use a mirror, one might as
well be aware of its limitations -- what to expect,
and what not to expect of it.

Shoulder checking also enables a rider to make
eye-contact communication with fellow road/street
users behind, and signals that the shoulder checking
rider is about to change his vector -- perhaps for
a lane change, perhaps for a turn. /That's/ what
looking rearward is for, not for seeing if some
intangible threat is there, like the Boogie Man
hiding under one's bed.

Why would someone using a mirror not shoulder check? Do you assume that
because the mirror is there that the rider isn't going to move his/her
head
to check what's in the spot right next to him/her?

In that case, the mirror is a redundant accessory.
If the rider has already looked directly, why would
he then use the mirror?

It's not at all redundant because you can also check your rear quickly
without moving your head to actually look behind you.

Do you even know what a shoulder check is?

There are plenty of
times were all you need to know is what is behind you...you may not be ready
to change your position on the road, but you can still know what's there.

Why, if you're maintaining a predictable line?

A
single glance that takes only an instant, with no need to look behind.

And that leaves you with an incomplete view.
It's called situatational partial awareness.

An "instant" or a quick glance might not be
long enough to collect enough visual information,
while lingering long look might be too much of a
distraction from the more important forward view.
The human brain takes a little time to assimilate
visual information. Not much time, but there's
a differential between noticing something, and
figuring out what it's doing and how your unpredictable
manouevers might affect it.

It seems to me, folks who over-rely on mirrors are
happy to thoughtlessly notice the stuff that might
kill them.


It's
call situational awareness and it is quite obvious from your comments that
you have no idea about this.

I can turn my head and look behind me without swerving, almost
as easily as glancing in a mirror. But It's worth it, because
I get a much better picture of what's happening back there.

I confess to having a handlebar mirror on my main bike.
It's convenient for quick, half-the-story glances.
Sometimes it reassures me that the top of my cargo trailer
is still on, and my laundry isn't flying out all over the
street, while I still keep an eye on what's up ahead.

So you're using a mirror, then. It enhances your situational awareness,
but
you don't depend on it totally.

Exactly!

You have a full range of senses and your
vision is a very powerful one. If you eyes are open then they can
collection
information over a continuum of different possible positions. It's
powerful, not otherwise.

There have been occasions where other riders have
passed me on my right, threading the needle between
me and a line of parked cars, through the door zone.
I guess they want to show off how fast they are, but
they're scared to venture deeper into where the cars go.
I confess to being caught by surprise a few times by
this stupid maneouver. I'm wise to it now. It usually
happens when the fair-weather riders come out of the
woodwork.

My handlebar mirror gives no indication of this when
it's incipient. A shoulder-check to the ~right~, would.
One has to be alert to the presence of upcoming other riders,
as well as cars. Especially when riders pull boneheaded
stunts such as I described above. In those situations,
I maintain "a simple glance at a mirror is enough to know
all you need for the given situation" just doesn't cut
the mustard.


You can maintain all you like, but you still clueless.

I guess you think I deserve that dig.

As for "situational awareness", /you/ try driving a
forklift around a narrow crossdock warehouse with a
bunch of unaware temp workers traipsing lackadaisically
around across the floor, with a 7' high palletful of
goods on your fork blades, while using mirrors instead
of driving + looking backwards in your direction of travel.

Oh, f***ing yeah! Looking backwards on a bike isn't in
your direction of travel. In fact, it's the opposite.
But it still can be done by anyone who has a healthy enough
neck to ride a normal bike.


I dunno. Make love to your mirror and call me clueless,
for all I care.

Do whatever you want. But mirrors on bikes were
never necessities, or else they'd have always had 'em.


I still wish you well 'cuz I'm a nice guy,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

On Feb 6, 12:19*am, "Roger Zoul" wrote:
"Tom Keats" wrote in message

...





In article ,
"Roger Zoul" writes:

Shoulder checking both to the left and right without
swerving is an easily-enough acquired bicycle riding
basic skill (with practice.) *Once one has the skill,
one doesn't really need to rely upon redundant
accoutrements along with their limitations, in order
to lazily avoid a little initial effort and practice.
And it seems to me, the more skills a rider acquires,
the more empowered he or she becomes.

Looking at the thing itself instead of its reflection
gives the advantage of depth perception, and avoids
certain optical effects impinged by mirrors, such as
image darkening, washing-out of certain colours, and
distorted image sizes ("objects in mirror are closer
than they appear.")

Wow....spew total nonsense. *A simple glance at a mirror is enough to
know
all you need for the given situation. It not as though you need to read a
PhD disseration in a mirror.

If one is going to use use a mirror, one might as
well be aware of its limitations -- what to expect,
and what not to expect of it.

Shoulder checking also enables a rider to make
eye-contact communication with fellow road/street
users behind, and signals that the shoulder checking
rider is about to change his vector -- perhaps for
a lane change, perhaps for a turn. */That's/ what
looking rearward is for, not for seeing if some
intangible threat is there, like the Boogie Man
hiding under one's bed.

Why would someone using a mirror not shoulder check? *Do you assume that
because the mirror is there that the rider isn't going to move his/her
head
to check what's in the spot right next to him/her?

In that case, the mirror is a redundant accessory.
If the rider has already looked directly, why would
he then use the mirror?

It's not at all redundant because you can also check your rear quickly
without moving your head to actually look behind you. There are plenty of
times were all you need to know is what is behind you...you may not be ready
to change your position on the road, but you can still know what's there. A
single glance that takes only an instant, with no need to look behind. It's
call situational awareness and it is quite obvious from your comments that
you have no idea about this.







I confess to having a handlebar mirror on my main bike.
It's convenient for quick, half-the-story glances.
Sometimes it reassures me that the top of my cargo trailer
is still on, and my laundry isn't flying out all over the
street, while I still keep an eye on what's up ahead.

So you're using a mirror, then. It enhances your situational awareness,
but
you don't depend on it totally.

Exactly!

You have a full range of senses and your
vision is a very powerful one. If you eyes are open then they can
collection
information over a continuum of different possible positions. *It's
powerful, not otherwise.

There have been occasions where other riders have
passed me on my right, threading the needle between
me and a line of parked cars, through the door zone.
I guess they want to show off how fast they are, but
they're scared to venture deeper into where the cars go.
I confess to being caught by surprise a few times by
this stupid maneouver. *I'm wise to it now. *It usually
happens when the fair-weather riders come out of the
woodwork.

My handlebar mirror gives no indication of this when
it's incipient. A shoulder-check to the ~right~, would.
One has to be alert to the presence of upcoming other riders,
as well as cars. Especially when riders pull boneheaded
stunts such as I described above. *In those situations,
I maintain "a simple glance at a mirror is enough to know
all you need for the given situation" just doesn't cut
the mustard.

You can maintain all you like, but you still clueless.





cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca- Hide quoted text -

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Well I ran into a situaton. I ride in cold cold temps. So I wear
hoodies and last month due to an inner ear infection I lost the
hearing in my right ear. I lost my mirror in a fall so I was totally
lost not knowing what was behind me. I ran out and got a new one and I
feel safe seeing in the rear. Only time I don't use mirrors while
mountain biking.

In article ,
Phil W Lee phil(at)lee-family(dot)me(dot)uk writes:
"Roger Zoul" considered Mon, 2 Feb 2009
11:40:53 -0500 the perfect time to write:


"Tom Keats" wrote in message
...

Any other sage advice for a mirror neophyte?

Learn to not use one before you do. And never
trust a mirror to give you the full picture.

If by that you mean to always turn our head to check before making a lane
change, then I agree. However, a mirror can give you a much better state of
situational awareness if properly used. However, where humans are concerned
there is always the chance for error.

When I was training novice motorcyclists we used to remove their
mirrors until they'd learned to look over their shoulders
appropriately and safely.
Some people just WON'T learn as long as the mirror is there.

(Pedal) bicyclists have gotten by for countless decades
without mirrors. A narrow, two-inline-wheeled vehicle
doesn't really need 'em, except for some recumbent configs.
Otherwise, mirrors are a convenience, but conveniences always
come with pay-off/trade-off baggage.

The ability to ride without mirrors (or other such "transitional
objects[*]") is ... well, I hesitate to say: a survival skill,
but it's good to have in one's skills toolkit. And it's so easy
to acquire! Maybe easier than losing 10 lbs by dieting alone,
without accompanying exercise. But there are always some folks
who just don't have the balls or the willingness to do it.

Ultimately, actually looking at what's going on gives a better
and more qualitative view of what's going on, than glancing
at a reflection of it. And that evokes my other "issue"
about mirror use -- people want "fast". A quick glance in
a mirror is fast, but does that really give enough time for
the human brain to assimilate any information thus gleaned?
There have been a number of accounts here in r.b.m from
riders who were hit or almost-hit by drivers who were
nevertheless apparently looking right at them. I suspect
those drivers were just glancing around, and not giving
their brains enough milliseconds to drink in what they
perceive. It's a half-assed, perfunctory attempt toward
proper diligence. I guess a lot of folks like to flatter
themselves that they can think faster than they really can.
Well, people can think pretty fast. But there's still
a natural limit as to how fast a brain works, and a dooky
mirror on a bike simply cannot do the dirty work of pushing
the envelope for anybody. And that's why I don't rely
on mirrors, and why I suggest others not to do so as well.

I'm not anti-mirror, I have a handlebar one myself. In
certain situations I even use it. But I'm not religious
about it. I'd just like my fellow riders to have the best
of both (mirror & non-mirror) worlds.

I guess mirrors on bikes are in a way like transmissions
on cars: auto vs manual. The driver who can work a
clutch has the advantage over a driver who can't.


cheers,
Tom
[*] E.g: Charles M. Schultz's "Peanuts" character: Linus Van Pelt's
Security Blanket.

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

On Feb 6, 11:15*pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * "Roger Zoul" writes:

There are plenty of
times were all you need to know is what is behind you...you may not be ready
to change your position on the road, but you can still know what's there.

Why, if you're maintaining a predictable line?

Why?

Because around here in the summertime, your "predictable line" may
point you at a field of potholes. And certainly for the last two
weeks, your "predictable line" would send you over 1.5" thick slabs of
ice welded to the road, featuring slanted edges to throw you down
sideways. I absolutely needed to adjust my line by scanning far
ahead, trying to pick the least hazardous path through the ice, snow
and slush - and MV traffic.

It may have been possible to do that fore-and-aft scanning without a
mirror, but it would have been a lot more difficult.

And as previously noted, the simple act of negotiating to move left
(preparatory to a left turn) is much easier if you have a good idea of
the gaps in traffic flow behind. Yes, I shoulder check anyway; but
with the mirror, I typically need to shoulder check only once. The
rest of the time I can focus better on the forward direction.

- Frank Krygowski

In article ,
Frank Krygowski writes:
On Feb 6, 11:15*pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * "Roger Zoul" writes:

There are plenty of
times were all you need to know is what is behind you...you may not be ready
to change your position on the road, but you can still know what's there.

Why, if you're maintaining a predictable line?
Why?
Because around here in the summertime, your "predictable line" may
point you at a field of potholes. And certainly for the last two
weeks, your "predictable line" would send you over 1.5" thick slabs of
ice welded to the road, featuring slanted edges to throw you down
sideways. I absolutely needed to adjust my line by scanning far
ahead, trying to pick the least hazardous path through the ice, snow
and slush - and MV traffic.

That sounds absolutely horrid.

It may have been possible to do that fore-and-aft scanning without a
mirror, but it would have been a lot more difficult.
And as previously noted, the simple act of negotiating to move left
(preparatory to a left turn) is much easier if you have a good idea of
the gaps in traffic flow behind. Yes, I shoulder check anyway; but
with the mirror, I typically need to shoulder check only once. The
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Is shoulder-checking twice or thrice really so egregious?
(It doesn't hurt to look behind on the right side either.
Other riders can be more of a hazard than motorists.)

rest of the time I can focus better on the forward direction.

That's the main thing.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

On Feb 7, 10:55*am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * Frank Krygowski writes:

Because around here in the summertime, your "predictable line" may
point you at a field of potholes. *And certainly for the last two
weeks, your "predictable line" would send you over 1.5" thick slabs of
ice welded to the road, featuring slanted edges to throw you down
sideways. *I absolutely needed to adjust my line by scanning far
ahead, trying to pick the least hazardous path through the ice, snow
and slush - and MV traffic.

That sounds absolutely horrid.

We've had an unusual amount of dense snow. It's melting quickly
today, and roads are now pretty clear. But for a while, it was bad
enough that my wife couldn't believe I rode the bike to some stores.


It may have been possible to do that fore-and-aft scanning without a
mirror, but it would have been a lot more difficult.
And as previously noted, the simple act of negotiating to move left
(preparatory to a left turn) is much easier if you have a good idea of
the gaps in traffic flow behind. *Yes, I shoulder check anyway; but
with the mirror, I typically need to shoulder check only once. *The

* * * * * * * * * *^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Is shoulder-checking twice or thrice really so egregious?

It's not terrible - in the same way that shifting your front
derailleur by operating a rod between your legs wasn't really
terrible. But most of us prefer some sort of lever closer to our
handlebars. Similarly, a mirror is a convenience.

rest of the time I can focus better on the forward direction.

That's the main thing.

Yes.

- Frank Krygowski

In article ,
Frank Krygowski writes:
On Feb 7, 10:55*am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * Frank Krygowski writes:

Because around here in the summertime, your "predictable line" may
point you at a field of potholes. *And certainly for the last two
weeks, your "predictable line" would send you over 1.5" thick slabs of
ice welded to the road, featuring slanted edges to throw you down
sideways. *I absolutely needed to adjust my line by scanning far
ahead, trying to pick the least hazardous path through the ice, snow
and slush - and MV traffic.

That sounds absolutely horrid.
We've had an unusual amount of dense snow. It's melting quickly
today, and roads are now pretty clear. But for a while, it was bad
enough that my wife couldn't believe I rode the bike to some stores.

That's pretty much the state here in Vancouver.

A couple of weeks ago I rode to the laundromat with my
trailerload of laundry. I sneaked up on it via a shaded
side street and almost lost it on black ice. Less than
half a block away, I decided to dismount and walk.
Since then the streets are far more travisable.

It may have been possible to do that fore-and-aft scanning without a
mirror, but it would have been a lot more difficult.
And as previously noted, the simple act of negotiating to move left
(preparatory to a left turn) is much easier if you have a good idea of
the gaps in traffic flow behind. *Yes, I shoulder check anyway; but
with the mirror, I typically need to shoulder check only once. *The

* * * * * * * * * *^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Is shoulder-checking twice or thrice really so egregious?

It's not terrible - in the same way that shifting your front
derailleur by operating a rod between your legs wasn't really
terrible. But most of us prefer some sort of lever closer to our
handlebars. Similarly, a mirror is a convenience.

A mirror is a convenience to you, me, and others, because we have
lived (successfully) without them. I believe there is a danger
in people developing an unnecessary reliance upon them. I think
I've articulated my viewpoints on the subject quite well in my
subsequent response to Phil W. Lee's post.

I'm rather surprised by the religosity of some of
the pro-mirror people. I'm not anti-mirror. I just
realize what mirrors can and can't do.

rest of the time I can focus better on the forward direction.

That's the main thing.
Yes.

Continue to watch out for surprising motor vehicle
U-turns or sudden stops ahead of you.

Continue to safely enjoy life. And riding.
That goes for everybody. Have a good one!


cheers,
Tom


--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Tom Keats wrote:
:: But it still can be done by anyone who has a healthy enough
:: neck to ride a normal bike.

I disagree with this statement. I have tried and tried and still swerve a
bit to the left when I do the shoulder check. A mirror is safer for me.


:: Do whatever you want. But mirrors on bikes were
:: never necessities, or else they'd have always had 'em.

Now, go and tell the motorcycle folk this same argument.


Pat in TX

Tom Keats wrote:
:: The ability to ride without mirrors (or other such "transitional
:: objects[*]") is ... well, I hesitate to say: a survival skill,
:: but it's good to have in one's skills toolkit. And it's so easy
:: to acquire! Maybe easier than losing 10 lbs by dieting alone,
:: without accompanying exercise. But there are always some folks
:: who just don't have the balls or the willingness to do it.

Do you realize how "I think I'm morally superior to you because I don't like
mirrors!" you sound? or the "If you're not just like me then you're
clueless!"

Pat in TX

On Sat, 7 Feb 2009 22:59:10 -0800, (Tom Keats)
wrote:

[---]

A couple of weeks ago I rode to the laundromat with my
trailerload of laundry. I sneaked up on it via a shaded
side street and almost lost it on black ice. Less than
half a block away, I decided to dismount and walk.

I think I'd rather buy a washing machine that put up with that...