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"Divisive Issue"



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 27th 07, 09:35 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Olebiker
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Posts: 166
Default "Divisive Issue"

On Feb 27, 2:53 pm, "pmh" wrote:
On Feb 27, 1:09 pm, "Olebiker" wrote:
Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to
extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks
and clovis pointed spears.


There is some evidence for paleo-indian activity as much as 30,000
years ago.


OK. What point are you making with this observation? I'm missing it.

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  #12  
Old February 27th 07, 11:02 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
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Posts: 4,798
Default "Divisive Issue"

On 27 Feb 2007 10:09:30 -0800, "Olebiker" wrote:

On Feb 27, 11:03 am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
Yes, they are. You don't become a native species the day you arrive!
It takes a long time for the natives to adapt to the newcomer. Biology
texts are silent on this issue, especially on the issue of humans as
an exotic invasive, because they don't want to tell the truth about
humans. It's doubtful that ANY species other than bacteria and viruses
can change fast enough to adapt to humans. The North American
megafauna obviously couldn't. They went extinct.


If you truly believe this, why haven't you moved back to Olduvai
Gorge?


You obviously haven't read my paper. No matter where humans are, we
change too rapidly for anything but bacteria and viruses to adapt to
(successfully) us.

Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to
extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks
and clovis pointed spears.


They we near Port Townsend, WA was a mammoth with a spear point in
its elbow, proving the point.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
  #13  
Old February 27th 07, 11:03 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
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Posts: 4,798
Default "Divisive Issue"

On 27 Feb 2007 11:53:26 -0800, "pmh" wrote:

On Feb 27, 1:09 pm, "Olebiker" wrote:


Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to
extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks
and clovis pointed spears.


There is some evidence for paleo-indian activity as much as 30,000
years ago.


Even 50,000 years (when Homo sapiens first left Africa), isn't long
enough for other species to evolve successful adaptations to us.

PH

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
  #14  
Old February 27th 07, 11:05 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
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Posts: 4,798
Default "Divisive Issue"

On 27 Feb 2007 11:55:13 -0800, "pmh" wrote:

On Feb 27, 11:03 am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
It's doubtful that ANY species other than bacteria and viruses
can change fast enough to adapt to humans.


Rats and cockroaches seem to have managed just fine.


Yes, but not by adapting to us. They were lucky enough to already able
to deal with us.

PH

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
  #15  
Old February 28th 07, 02:40 AM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
pmh
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Posts: 89
Default "Divisive Issue"

On Feb 27, 3:35 pm, "Olebiker" wrote:
On Feb 27, 2:53 pm, "pmh" wrote:

On Feb 27, 1:09 pm, "Olebiker" wrote:
Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to
extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks
and clovis pointed spears.


There is some evidence for paleo-indian activity as much as 30,000
years ago.


OK. What point are you making with this observation? I'm missing it.


You have a potential time span about 75 times as large within which to
speculate.

PH

  #16  
Old February 28th 07, 05:25 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
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Posts: 4,798
Default "Divisive Issue"

On 27 Feb 2007 17:40:08 -0800, "pmh" wrote:

On Feb 27, 3:35 pm, "Olebiker" wrote:
On Feb 27, 2:53 pm, "pmh" wrote:

On Feb 27, 1:09 pm, "Olebiker" wrote:
Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to
extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks
and clovis pointed spears.


There is some evidence for paleo-indian activity as much as 30,000
years ago.


OK. What point are you making with this observation? I'm missing it.


You have a potential time span about 75 times as large within which to
speculate.


Try again, this time in English.

PH

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
  #17  
Old February 28th 07, 06:53 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
bill[_2_]
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Posts: 2
Default "Divisive Issue"

Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to
extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks
and clovis pointed spears.
There is some evidence for paleo-indian activity as much as 30,000
years ago.
OK. What point are you making with this observation? I'm missing it.

You have a potential time span about 75 times as large within which to
speculate.

Try again, this time in English.


The problem here is that "right" is a human concept, animals,
whether native or invasive have no concept of it. Might makes right
is one of the most basic laws of nature, along with "adapt or die",
and "everything that lives, dies", nature is not harmonious or
peaceful, it is brutal and murderous, we're just the latest version,
Killer, V.25. all species in any location were once "invasive" and
it's only for our own convenience that we declare invasive species bad.

  #18  
Old February 28th 07, 08:55 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,798
Default "Divisive Issue"

On 28 Feb 2007 09:53:06 -0800, "bill"
wrote:

Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to
extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks
and clovis pointed spears.
There is some evidence for paleo-indian activity as much as 30,000
years ago.
OK. What point are you making with this observation? I'm missing it.
You have a potential time span about 75 times as large within which to
speculate.

Try again, this time in English.


The problem here is that "right" is a human concept,


Right. It's called "morality". That doesn't mean you can dismiss it.

animals,
whether native or invasive have no concept of it. Might makes right
is one of the most basic laws of nature, along with "adapt or die",
and "everything that lives, dies", nature is not harmonious or
peaceful, it is brutal and murderous, we're just the latest version,
Killer, V.25.


But humans have a concept called "morality", under which might does
NOT make right. Or had you forgotten that? Most mountain bikers
conveniently forget things like that.

all species in any location were once "invasive"


True. It takes a lot of time before they can be called "native". That
doesn't excuse what humans are doing to nature.

and
it's only for our own convenience that we declare invasive species bad.


Hogwash. Exotics can do an enormous amount of harm to native species.
Humans are the worst expotic invasive of all, although most biologists
aren't honest enough to admit it. You cite wildlife when you want to
excuse human rapaciousness, but you conveniently forget wildlife when
it comes to evaluating human impacts: most species do very little harm
to other species. Even predators are generally incapable of driving a
species to extinction, UNLIKE HUMANS.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
  #19  
Old March 1st 07, 01:51 AM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
JSH
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Posts: 6
Default "Divisive Issue"

Disregard my earlier message.

Just kill yourself.

It's a lost cause, but here goes your logic applied to you:

Premises:

All invasive species should not exist outside of their native range.
Humans are an invasive species outside of the tiny native range.
Mike Vandeman is a human.
Mike Vandeman insists on living outside of the native human range.

Conclusion:
Mike Vandeman should not exist.

QED

On Feb 28, 2:55 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:


Hogwash. Exotics can do an enormous amount ov harm to native species.
Humans r Þ worst expotic invasive ov al, alÞo most biologists
aren't honest enuff to admit it. u cite wildlife wen u want to
excuse human rapaciousness, but u conveniently forget wildlife wen
it comes to evaluating human impacts: most species do very litl harm
to oÞr species. Even predators r generally incapable ov driving a
species to extinction, UNLIKE HUMANS.


  #20  
Old March 1st 07, 03:40 AM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
pmh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 89
Default "Divisive Issue"

On Feb 28, 7:51 pm, "JSH" wrote:

You are attempting rational discourse with an irrational being.

PH


 




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