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Scotland's cycling tax



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 14th 09, 10:32 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
lardyninja
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Posts: 194
Default Scotland's cycling tax



http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ver.5642372.jp

LN

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  #2  
Old September 14th 09, 10:45 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
mileburner
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Posts: 2,365
Default Scotland's cycling tax


"lardyninja" wrote in message
...


http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ver.5642372.jp


In principle, I think the idea is good. Someone has to pay for the roads so
howsabout starting with the people who use them?

However, the cost of administration would undoubtedly be high and the
policing would difficult.

And lets not forget that the damage caused to the roads is done by others.

In fact, the more I think about it, we should not be paying for this damage
by way of council tax, but higher rates of VED should be levied to cover the
cost. That way cyclists and pedestrians will not be contributing to the
damage to roads caused by vehicles.


  #3  
Old September 14th 09, 11:17 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Just zis Guy, you know?[_2_]
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Default Scotland's cycling tax

On Sep 14, 10:32*am, lardyninja wrote:
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ment-in-talks-...


I don't have a problem with cyclists paying proportionally for the
cost of roads. Damage goes with the fourth power of mass, so the
equitable tax (ignoring for a moment the fact that cycle roads do not
need to be anything like as massive as roads designed to carry motor
traffic) whould be something under 10p a year. assuming a mass of
1000kg for a car and 150kg for a bike (actually I think most cars
weigh more than 1000kg and most cycles plus rider combinations weigh
less than 150kg, but whatever). Unless of course they pro rata from
the prevailing rate for the lowest level of CO2 emission in cars, in
which case the sum is roughly 1/2000 of £0.00

If the Scottish Assembly can collect a properly proportionate sum
without spending several orders of magnitude more on administration
than they raise in tax, and can do it in a way that doesn't deter
cycling, especially for children travelling to and form school, then
they will really have achieved something.
--
Guy
  #4  
Old September 14th 09, 11:34 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Paul Rudin[_2_]
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Posts: 332
Default Scotland's cycling tax

"Just zis Guy, you know?" writes:

On Sep 14, 10:32Â*am, lardyninja wrote:
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ment-in-talks-...


I don't have a problem with cyclists paying proportionally for the
cost of roads.


The problem is with the concept of VED being a payment for a service
- it's not, it's just another tax.

The roads are funded out of general taxation.

If you increase taxes associated with bikes then you make cycling
relatively more expensive and, all else being equal, make people less
likely to do it compared with other forms of transport.

The question is what do you want the consequences of your tax policy to
be? If you want fewer people to cycle and more to drive - then by all
means increase taxes on cylists; but I'm not sure who that benfits.
Clearly not cyclists - and in all probability not motorists either, as
the roads will tend to be more congested.


  #5  
Old September 14th 09, 12:55 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Matt B
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Posts: 1,927
Default Scotland's cycling tax

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
On Sep 14, 10:32 am, lardyninja wrote:
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ment-in-talks-...


I don't have a problem with cyclists paying proportionally for the
cost of roads. Damage goes with the fourth power of mass, so the
equitable tax (ignoring for a moment the fact that cycle roads do not
need to be anything like as massive as roads designed to carry motor
traffic) whould be something under 10p a year. assuming a mass of
1000kg for a car and 150kg for a bike (actually I think most cars
weigh more than 1000kg and most cycles plus rider combinations weigh
less than 150kg, but whatever). Unless of course they pro rata from
the prevailing rate for the lowest level of CO2 emission in cars, in
which case the sum is roughly 1/2000 of £0.00

If the Scottish Assembly can collect a properly proportionate sum
without spending several orders of magnitude more on administration
than they raise in tax, and can do it in a way that doesn't deter
cycling, especially for children travelling to and form school, then
they will really have achieved something.


There are several tax models in existence. There is no need to narrow
the choice to one which is proportionate or to that currently applied to
motor vehicles.

One model, which doesn't have the overhead of registration, is just to
require a valid "permit" to be attached to the vehicle. Such "permits"
could easily be available from vending machines, high street shops, etc.
If the "permit" was to be non-transferable, then it could be designed
to self-destruct if removed from a vehicle (similar to the motorway tax
vignettes used on cars in Switzerland). Heavy penalties for failure to
display a permit could bolster the revenues - as in the London
congestion charge, roadside parking charges, etc.

Alternatively, roads could be funded from central taxation, with a
free-at-the-point-of-use policy for /all/ users (whether by foot, bike,
car or bus), similar to the jealously protected NHS. Commercial
operators (haulage, bus, etc.) could pay an appropriate commercial rate,
similar to the way the TOCs pay for rail use.

--
Matt B
  #6  
Old September 14th 09, 02:19 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Brooke[_2_]
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Posts: 671
Default Scotland's cycling tax

On 14 Sep, 10:32, lardyninja wrote:
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ment-in-talks-...

LN


The document in question is he

http://www.cyclingactionplanforscotland.org/
  #7  
Old September 14th 09, 02:26 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Rob Horton
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Posts: 39
Default Scotland's cycling tax

lardyninja wrote:


http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ver.5642372.jp


LN

Did anyone read the last line?


A Scottish Government spokeswoman said: "Scottish ministers have no
plans to charge cyclists for using the roads in Scotland."

So it's just a made up article. A troll I guess by scotland on sunday.
  #8  
Old September 14th 09, 02:28 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Robin Johnson
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Posts: 44
Default Scotland's cycling tax

lardyninja wrote:

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...ver.5642372.jp


The consultation was cancelled before the story went to press. It's not
happening.

Robin Johnson
  #9  
Old September 14th 09, 02:35 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Just zis Guy, you know?[_2_]
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Posts: 4,166
Default Scotland's cycling tax

On Sep 14, 12:55*pm, Matt B wrote:

Alternatively, roads could be funded from central taxation, with a
free-at-the-point-of-use policy for /all/ users (whether by foot, bike,
car or bus), similar to the jealously protected NHS. *Commercial
operators (haulage, bus, etc.) could pay an appropriate commercial rate,
similar to the way the TOCs pay for rail use.


That is more or less how it works now. Roads are funded out of
general taxation, there is no charge per use for most roads, and
commercial operators have higher charges and more onerous operating
regimes. The only problem is, it results in private motoring being
too cheap compared with the costs of provision, with the result that
the roads are permanently degraded for all other users. This is
further complicated by political machinations on behalf of the
incredibly powerful motor lobby. It's almost as if these people have
never read the literature on traffic management.
--
Guy
  #10  
Old September 14th 09, 04:11 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
David Hansen
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Posts: 2,206
Default Scotland's cycling tax

On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:26:56 +0100 someone who may be Rob Horton
wrote this:-

So it's just a made up article. A troll I guess by scotland on sunday.


http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publicati.../05/28093408/7 (in
particular question 10) was not produced by Scotland on Sunday.

It is worth noting these paragraphs at the end of the SoS article

"Peter Hayman, another CAPS board member and the Scottish
representative of the Cyclists Touring Club, claimed the tax
suggestion was added to the paper without his knowledge.

""I think this went in after we saw the final draft," he said. "The
board saw the guts of the document, then the Scottish Government
people put it together with some extra quotes, which we never saw. I
don't think it should have been there because it distracts from the
real question, which is: how do you get more people cycling?"

Cyclists already pay far more than their fair share towards the
upkeep of the roads. They don't whine about this.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
 




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