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DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS



 
 
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  #31  
Old October 9th 17, 04:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 3:03:22 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:33:07 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 10/8/2017 11:42 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:01:58 +0700, John B.
wrote:
When the carnage of totally autonomous vehicles
is over...


Jeff, you are SUCH an optimist.


I prefer realist. Few new technologies have ever been introduced
without sacrificing a few people in order to learn what doesn't work.
Prognostications, predictions, and pontifications:
1. Driverless cars will include optional ejection seats.
2. Someone on Kickstarter will offer a driverless eBike, probably for
pickup and deliver errands.
3. Someone in government will suggest that the only safe way to
operate a driverless car is to have it centrally managed by yet
another inept and expensive state or federal agency.
4. Driving a driverless car will not require a driving license.
5. The Calif Vehicle Code will add a requirement for a MINIMUM speed
for vehicles (including bicycles) that use the safe highway of the
future.
6. Driverless anything will be required to make engine like noises to
warn pedestrians and cyclists of their approach. eBikes are next.
7. There will be a problem with people getting out of their
driverless vehicles, and then watching the driverless vehicle drive
off into the sunset to who knows where.
8. The first successful driverless vehicle with be a large truck
(because replacing the union driver has the highest payback).
9. Delivering a bomb by driverless vehicle will become a problem.
10. The shortest distance through traffic will NOT be where the
driverless car wants to go.

"Smarter Cycling Series: Watch out for laws that demand cyclists get
out of the way of driverless cars"
https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/smarter-cycling-series-watch-out-laws-demand-cyclists-get-out-way-driverless


1. Why? So that they can land into the pathway of another vehicle?
2. Driverless e-bikes will NEVER exist.
3. I'm absolutely sure you're correct. But they will be given the thumbs down.
4. That could be correct but is somewhat questionable.
5. No.
6. Bicycles are already too quiet. I almost bought it today when a man stopped for a car backing out of a slanted parking spot and then as I was passing pulled into that spot without ever signaling. He apologized but what difference would that have made if I was less alert.
7. That is absolutely the LAST worry that would be possible. They are tied to the occupant's phone.
8. No, you have to have driven a truck to understand that.
9. Possibly but unlikely. Too easily thwarted.
10. Err, auto-mapping already finds the quickest route to anywhere.
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  #32  
Old October 9th 17, 04:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 4:22:13 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:

All interesting observations.
What I meant about optimism was, what makes you think the
carnage will slow or stop?


As I see it it will remain unchanged and driverless cars will not exist because they will be and remain unsafe as a truck rolling down a hill without a driver or brakes.
  #33  
Old October 9th 17, 04:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 7:20:16 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/8/2017 3:46 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

It's highly likely that we're going to have driverless cars inflicted
upon the American public either the choice of government edict. My
guess(tm) is that such driverless cars will need to communicate with
each other and with some manner of central traffic authority via some
kind of mesh network. It's this network that controls which roadway
the vehicles will travel, distributes the traffic to prevent
bottlenecks, and hopefully helps prevent accidents. If bicycles are
going to continue riding on the same roads, they will need to check
into the same mesh network that will be used by cars, buses, trucks,
and such in order to be deemed safe.


That’s quite a leap. The streets are and will continue to be full of
vehicles that *aren’t* going to be part of that sort of network for a
long, long time.


Agreed. Yesterday, a friend and I attended an event somewhere east of
his home and west of mine. He arrived in his 1930 Model A. I arrived on
my 1972 motorcycle.

Also: We spent today walking and biking around a major city. That meant
frequently negotiating with motorists as we walked across streets using
crosswalks. As has been pointed out many times, the per-mile fatality
rate for pedestrians is triple that of bicyclists.

So: Transponders in shoes?


I rode past a school and there was a car show on the field consisting of virtually every sports car built before 1960.
  #34  
Old October 9th 17, 04:32 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 18:22:03 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

What I meant about optimism was, what makes you think the
carnage will slow or stop?


Oh that. Well, it can go either way. Initially, it will be a balance
between early adopters, who are generally competent and reasonably
affluent, and customer tested beta quality software, which is certain
to be FOB (full of bugs). These early adopters are generally willing
to tolerate a few bugs and fatalities in order to win points among
their peers for being a technical pioneer or adventurer. Once these
are gone, the next wave of buyers will be less competent and less
affluent. At the same time, the lessons learned by the fatal
accidents of the early adopters will improve the software to keep the
second wave of buyers alive long enough to run the driverless car into
a commodity. Of course, government will try to help accelerate
progress, but more likely will simply hinder progress with
bureaucratic impediments. In other words, I don't have any idea if a
driverless car will actually save 30,000 lives per year. It might
simply kill the same number of drivers in a different manner. My
guess(tm) is that the carnage will initially slow down but later
increase as the software becomes old, communications protocols change,
and the roads become even more clogged with additional driverless
"things". Talk to anyone with an older car that has a dashboard GPS
mapping display, who has tried to obtain an up to date map.

The key to the puzzle is the word "safety". I've dealt with safety
equipment in an industrial environment. Once safety interlocks and
shields are introduced, the accident rate usually increases rather
than decreases. That's because workers genuinely believe that the
safety device will protect them from harm, no matter how stupid they
act. So, they do risky things and soon learn that safety devices only
protect against a limited number of possible actions.

Methinks that much the same will be when driverless cars are
introduced while chanting the "safety" mantra. Drivers will believe
that the driverless car technology will protect them from harm, and
proceed to perform new and original stupid stunts, testing the limits
of the new technology. If the programmers have anticipated such
stunts, then these drivers might live to tell the story at the next
party. If not, the drivers become a statistic. I'm not worried
because natural selection should be able to eliminate drivers with
more faith in the new technology than understanding.

Now, back to my question. How much are you willing to relinquish for
the privilege of riding your bicycle on the driverless highway of the
future? Are you ready for robo-bike?



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #35  
Old October 9th 17, 04:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Average vehicle life is 12 years so 7-9 years from now is electric driverless territory.

Advanced 1 liter car ...

There is an assumption in the background that cleanER energy generation is possible

The entire scheme is similar to the cat convertor n vinyl/acrylic paint.

There are way to many cars n way to few pools n it's gonna get air worse not better
  #38  
Old October 9th 17, 01:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On 10/8/2017 10:11 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 9:42:27 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:01:58 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Are they actually made to communicate with each other? I see some
tests being carried out (in Singapore) and in one case a driverless
car drove into a lorry. Or maybe they only talk with each other :-)


No, or rather not yet. The "autonomous vehicle", which implies that
all the intelligence is on-board, is being deprecated in favor of
"driverless vehicle". I'm not sure of the status of "self-driving
car" and "robo-car". When the carnage of totally autonomous vehicles
is over, the obvious solution is to have the vehicle talk to other
vehicles, potential hazards, traffic control devices, and perhaps
bicycles. My guess(tm) is this will manifest itself in the form of an
ad-hoc wireless network between all the autonomous vehicles and
similar devices within range. In my never humble opinion, it's the
only effective way to do traffic management over wide areas.

The article:
"Bikes May Have To Talk To Self-Driving Cars For Safety's Sake"
http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/07/24/537746346/bikes-may-have-to-talk-to-self-driving-cars-for-safetys-sake
is the first one that I've seen that suggests a bicycle "talk" to an
autonomous vehicle under the banner of safety. Would you want to ride
your bicycle on a roadway full of bumper cars without any way to warn
the cars to keep their distance?
https://www.google.com/search?q=bumper+cars&tbm=isch

Since everyone seems to be avoiding the question, perhaps rephrasing
the question will help: Are you prepared to cede some of your bicycle
autonomy in order to be allowed to ride the highway of the future? Are
you ready for robo-bike?


Not only is it not over but it has hardly begun. If you think for one second that young men are going to turn their cars over to an artificial intelligence you're going to have to think a little harder on that Jeff.


Tom, you might spend a little time with teenagers of my
grandsons' cohort. They don't think as we did. Their world
has always been safe, adventure proscribed, opportunity
closed. Cars have little attraction or meaning for most of
that generation.

I'm uncomfortable with their ethos, but then again it's not
my generation.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #39  
Old October 9th 17, 01:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On 10/8/2017 10:32 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Oct 2017 18:22:03 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

What I meant about optimism was, what makes you think the
carnage will slow or stop?


Oh that. Well, it can go either way. Initially, it will be a balance
between early adopters, who are generally competent and reasonably
affluent, and customer tested beta quality software, which is certain
to be FOB (full of bugs). These early adopters are generally willing
to tolerate a few bugs and fatalities in order to win points among
their peers for being a technical pioneer or adventurer. Once these
are gone, the next wave of buyers will be less competent and less
affluent. At the same time, the lessons learned by the fatal
accidents of the early adopters will improve the software to keep the
second wave of buyers alive long enough to run the driverless car into
a commodity. Of course, government will try to help accelerate
progress, but more likely will simply hinder progress with
bureaucratic impediments. In other words, I don't have any idea if a
driverless car will actually save 30,000 lives per year. It might
simply kill the same number of drivers in a different manner. My
guess(tm) is that the carnage will initially slow down but later
increase as the software becomes old, communications protocols change,
and the roads become even more clogged with additional driverless
"things". Talk to anyone with an older car that has a dashboard GPS
mapping display, who has tried to obtain an up to date map.

The key to the puzzle is the word "safety". I've dealt with safety
equipment in an industrial environment. Once safety interlocks and
shields are introduced, the accident rate usually increases rather
than decreases. That's because workers genuinely believe that the
safety device will protect them from harm, no matter how stupid they
act. So, they do risky things and soon learn that safety devices only
protect against a limited number of possible actions.

Methinks that much the same will be when driverless cars are
introduced while chanting the "safety" mantra. Drivers will believe
that the driverless car technology will protect them from harm, and
proceed to perform new and original stupid stunts, testing the limits
of the new technology. If the programmers have anticipated such
stunts, then these drivers might live to tell the story at the next
party. If not, the drivers become a statistic. I'm not worried
because natural selection should be able to eliminate drivers with
more faith in the new technology than understanding.

Now, back to my question. How much are you willing to relinquish for
the privilege of riding your bicycle on the driverless highway of the
future? Are you ready for robo-bike?




I'll take my bad attitude and antiauthoritarian streak
wherever my bike wants to go, sans tracking device. We're
USAians - defiance is among our dearest cultural values.

To the phrase, "Everyone ought to...", my reply is a raised
middle finger.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #40  
Old October 9th 17, 02:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 3,345
Default DRIVERLESS ELECTRIC CARS

On Monday, October 9, 2017 at 5:35:39 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/8/2017 10:11 PM, wrote:

Not only is it not over but it has hardly begun. If you think for one second that young men are going to turn their cars over to an artificial intelligence you're going to have to think a little harder on that Jeff.


Tom, you might spend a little time with teenagers of my
grandsons' cohort. They don't think as we did. Their world
has always been safe, adventure proscribed, opportunity
closed. Cars have little attraction or meaning for most of
that generation.

I'm uncomfortable with their ethos, but then again it's not
my generation.


I find it difficult to believe that this is what humans have become. Shaking in their boots that someone in another state used a gun to kill people while ignoring the deaths of thousands of people every year due to vehicular accidents.

But perhaps you're correct. Today children are kept inside with very limited access to adventure of any sort. I spent most of my childhood above the age of 6 walking miles and playing in salt marshes collecting snakes and lizards. The other day I was riding up one of the local hills through a canyon and there was a medium sized tarantula walking down the road. I rode around it without a second though and they later reading email from the riding group was fearful complaints that it's the season which tarantulas are out.

One time we were riding in a group on the Bay Trail and there was a garter snake slithering across the trail and people started screaming, "Kill it, kill it!". It took them all by surprise that I simply picked it up and put it on the other side of the trail through a fence so none of them could get at it to kill it.

Perhaps the horror movies are having this sort of effect on people. I don't go to crap like that and so do not even understand the sort of fears these people have.
 




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