#41
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Waterford Bicycles
On 1/16/2021 4:23 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 3:11:21 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: On 1/15/2021 4:43 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 2:31:10 PM UTC-8, wrote: On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 7:49:45 AM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote: On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:03:02 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote: On 1/14/2021 6:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote: On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained from Waterford all custom built to your own body measurements. I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see a 12 speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those speeds but I do like the idea of wireless with hydraulic flat mount disks. Get a good set of wheels and they will last forever. While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended an Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe I should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since it would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of what little life I have left. And they have a lifetime warranty and a construction method that doesn't have a catastrophic failure mode. Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford Precision. But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not to say anything at all about his many and varied relatives. Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel bikes in the PDG Paramount group but I think that happened to be at the time when bicycling was not very popular and it couldn't support itself. That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o Waterford Pre4cison Cycles. I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of the Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct. In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many years. It was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a bad case of shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on RtR. When they built the frame, I had them shorten the stock top tube dimension by a cm, and have always wondered of that was a factor. Seems unlikely, but who knows. Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me the distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a "sport" rather than full race model. Gunnar Sport is what race bikes were in 1970. 500 length caliper and clearance for 28 with mudguards or 32mm without. Race geometry is 25mm max, 450 caliper. Waterfords (despite 'suggested geometries') are each drawn from scratch, custom to rider requirements including material and tube gauge. There are no other quality differences between the two lines- materials, welders, paint all exactly the same. Waterfords can be optionally lugged silver braze, Gunnars are all TIG. I bought my Waterford frame back in 1998 I think. Late 1997 or early 1998. I put 1998 Campagnolo Chorus group on it. The first year with the new round top on the levers. I bought my 1200 model (Reynolds 753, silver brazed short point lugs) through an internet bike dealer who got frames and bikes from all over and resold them. I did not buy directly from Waterford. Sounds like exactly the bike (and components) I bought, mine was in red. I bought it through my LBS; at the time it was a great shop. (Hodson's Bay, owned and operated by Lynn Hodson) My Waterford 1200 is a red/burgundy color. Candy apple red may have been the official Waterford color. Absolutely BEAUTIFUL. I'll let others argue about which frame material is the bestest of the best for making a bike frame. Titanium, carbon, aluminum, steel, bamboo, etc. But for pure aesthetics, nothing can touch a finely painted lugged steel frame and matching fork. ...My 58cm frame is the standard frame geometry that Waterford has/had on its website. So back then Waterford did make standard size frames, not just custom. I believe Waterford always offered custom sizing on its frames for free or minimal upcharge if you did not want the standard size frame. Yep, that's my recollection too. I bought the standard 60 cm size with the top tube shortened by 1 cm as I mentioned upthread. There was a small upcharge for that modest customization. As I recall, we (the LBS owner and I) settled on that configuration because the 58 seemed slightly too small and the 60 perhaps a bit generous--figuring if it turned out to be too short, we could make it up with a somewhat longer stem. The one thing that Colnago has in spades and that is the fanciest paint jobs in the world using a paint that is very difficult to put permanent scratches into. Trying to duplicate those things I powder coated the frames and then use rattlecan overspray to improve the paint jobs. One suggestion - only do this when it is warm enough for the paint to dry rapidly. For the Colnago it appears that they are using not transfers but actual decals on clear plastic and then clear coating the finished produce too have super strong and lasting art work. Not sure what you meant with those terms but many Colnago models are multilayer paint with stencils, not vinyl or acetate stickers, not waterslides, not film transfers. http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/col19n.jpg http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/col19p.jpg Andrew, if you look at the last picture in that series you can see finely printed Colnago on the top tube. This is not stencils nor transfers as far as I can tell. On mine this is the entire length of the top tube. If you look closely you can see a slightly raised edge and you can plainly feel it in a couple of places. So I'm pretty sure that it is a sticker over the top of the final paint they very carefully clear coated to lock it onto the top tube. If you meant this photo: http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/col19p.jpg That's just as the stencil is peeled away and before wet sanding to smooth the edges. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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#42
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Waterford Bicycles
On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 8:54:09 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/16/2021 4:23 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 3:11:21 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: On 1/15/2021 4:43 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 2:31:10 PM UTC-8, wrote: On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 7:49:45 AM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote: On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:03:02 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote: On 1/14/2021 6:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote: On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote: On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained from Waterford all custom built to your own body measurements. I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see a 12 speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those speeds but I do like the idea of wireless with hydraulic flat mount disks. Get a good set of wheels and they will last forever. While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended an Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe I should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since it would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of what little life I have left. And they have a lifetime warranty and a construction method that doesn't have a catastrophic failure mode. Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford Precision. But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not to say anything at all about his many and varied relatives. Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel bikes in the PDG Paramount group but I think that happened to be at the time when bicycling was not very popular and it couldn't support itself. That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o Waterford Pre4cison Cycles. I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of the Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct. In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many years. It was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a bad case of shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on RtR. When they built the frame, I had them shorten the stock top tube dimension by a cm, and have always wondered of that was a factor. Seems unlikely, but who knows. Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me the distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a "sport" rather than full race model. Gunnar Sport is what race bikes were in 1970. 500 length caliper and clearance for 28 with mudguards or 32mm without. Race geometry is 25mm max, 450 caliper. Waterfords (despite 'suggested geometries') are each drawn from scratch, custom to rider requirements including material and tube gauge. There are no other quality differences between the two lines- materials, welders, paint all exactly the same. Waterfords can be optionally lugged silver braze, Gunnars are all TIG. I bought my Waterford frame back in 1998 I think. Late 1997 or early 1998. I put 1998 Campagnolo Chorus group on it. The first year with the new round top on the levers. I bought my 1200 model (Reynolds 753, silver brazed short point lugs) through an internet bike dealer who got frames and bikes from all over and resold them. I did not buy directly from Waterford. Sounds like exactly the bike (and components) I bought, mine was in red. I bought it through my LBS; at the time it was a great shop. (Hodson's Bay, owned and operated by Lynn Hodson) My Waterford 1200 is a red/burgundy color. Candy apple red may have been the official Waterford color. Absolutely BEAUTIFUL. I'll let others argue about which frame material is the bestest of the best for making a bike frame. Titanium, carbon, aluminum, steel, bamboo, etc. But for pure aesthetics, nothing can touch a finely painted lugged steel frame and matching fork. ...My 58cm frame is the standard frame geometry that Waterford has/had on its website. So back then Waterford did make standard size frames, not just custom. I believe Waterford always offered custom sizing on its frames for free or minimal upcharge if you did not want the standard size frame. Yep, that's my recollection too. I bought the standard 60 cm size with the top tube shortened by 1 cm as I mentioned upthread. There was a small upcharge for that modest customization. As I recall, we (the LBS owner and I) settled on that configuration because the 58 seemed slightly too small and the 60 perhaps a bit generous--figuring if it turned out to be too short, we could make it up with a somewhat longer stem. The one thing that Colnago has in spades and that is the fanciest paint jobs in the world using a paint that is very difficult to put permanent scratches into. Trying to duplicate those things I powder coated the frames and then use rattlecan overspray to improve the paint jobs. One suggestion - only do this when it is warm enough for the paint to dry rapidly. For the Colnago it appears that they are using not transfers but actual decals on clear plastic and then clear coating the finished produce too have super strong and lasting art work. Not sure what you meant with those terms but many Colnago models are multilayer paint with stencils, not vinyl or acetate stickers, not waterslides, not film transfers. http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/col19n.jpg http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/col19p.jpg Andrew, if you look at the last picture in that series you can see finely printed Colnago on the top tube. This is not stencils nor transfers as far as I can tell. On mine this is the entire length of the top tube. If you look closely you can see a slightly raised edge and you can plainly feel it in a couple of places. So I'm pretty sure that it is a sticker over the top of the final paint they very carefully clear coated to lock it onto the top tube. If you meant this photo: http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/col19p.jpg That's just as the stencil is peeled away and before wet sanding to smooth the edges. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 I thought I was clear. This writing runs the entire length of the top tube in a fine script. Near the rear of the top tube you can see a slight raising of what appears to be a clear sheet of plastic and you can FEEL it with a fingernail. The writing itself appears to be on the underside of this clear sheet and you can also detect this near the head tube as well. What would be so strange with Colnago using this method? It would protect the fancy artwork that Colnago so often puts on their bikes. At this site if you scroll through the frames you find on on which the white lettering is plainly visible on the black background. Mine is black on a white background. https://www.excelsports.com/main.asp...gaAi79EALw_wcB |
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