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Biker Killed by Mountain Lion



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 10th 04, 06:27 AM
Edward Dolan
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

(Jerry Rhodes) wrote in message . com...

"DH" wrote in message

. Do we kill bears that have attacked humans?


Yes

What's the manner we deal with mountain lions?


Get the dogs, run it down and shoot it.

How should this be handled?


Just like I said. They got the dogs, ran it down and shot it.

Pumas/cougars/panthers/mountain lions are not an endangered species.


Well, I don't think there are too many of them around anywhere. How
could there be. Their habitat is mostly gone. It has been taken up by
us humans.

When an animal starts attacking humans it has entered my very personal
ecological niche and I kill it. I don't fault the lion for it is
doing what is natural(hunting prey) and I don't fault myself for I am
doing what is natural for me (self defense).

Jerry (top of the food chain) Rhodes


Actually, Jerry, for most of man's existence on this earth he has not
been anywhere near the top of the food chain. Primates in general are
only safe in the trees. Our proto-human ancestors most likely lived
like scavengers, taking the left overs from the kills of other more
powerful animals.

Look at the human being without any weapons. He is practically
defenseless. No teeth and claws at all to speak of. It is only our
brains that gave us an ultimate advantage whereby we could fashion
weapons with which to kill other animals which were much more powerful
and faster than us in every way. Man (Homo Sapiens) has been a great
hunter, but like the wolf pack that he resembles, he hunts best in a
group where various strategies can be employed which his brain and
language make possible.

Let us not get too stuck on ourselves. We came out of the world of the
animal and we have not made all that much progress despite our
technologies. I have enormous sympathy for the animals that still
manage to exist in the Wild, but I do agree that an animal that has
killed a human must be destroyed. I have spent years trekking in the
back country and have known the fear of being preyed upon by bears and
wolves. I have chosen society and civilization like everyone else, but
let us not forget where we came from.

By the way, the only wild animal left in the world today in great
numbers is the human wild animal. Yes, I am talking about you and me.
We have never been domesticated (who would do it if not ourselves). We
are not like our cattle, pigs and sheep. We are like the mountain lion
- still as wild as we were 50,000 years ago. Civilization is but a
thin veneer with which we cover our savagery. Until you can change the
genes, you have changed nothing. We are as much creatures of the Wild
as is the mountain lion.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
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  #22  
Old January 10th 04, 07:59 AM
Edward Dolan
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

(Joseph Kochanowski) wrote in message m...
[...]

I would like to see more carnivorous animals where I live. Evolution
has been taking a detour among the humans I coexist with. The
successful individuals have to pay more taxes than the lazy ones who
collect free government benefits.The man eating animals should set
evolution and the survival of the fittest on the right track again.
Carnivorous beasts would certainly help with the drunk driver problem.
Drunks would be easy prey for the beasts. This would also be a good
motivation for all the children who are having a problem with staying
in shape. Their parents could warn them that playing computer games
too much or watching TV means the big cats will get them. This could
certainly help solve the increase of childhood diabetes.I would like
to see any problem that exist with the beasts settled by an ACLU
lawyer confronting the wild animals directly. I am not afraid of a
mountain lion or wolf pack while I ride my recumbent streamliner. With
any luck the wild animals would help improve the performance of
recumbents on the market.


Nice satire Joe. I once just about stepped on an alligator when I was
in Florida many years ago. It sure did wake me up and I was from that
moment on always looking around me for any alligators that might be
lying about. But in all my travels in strange and exotic places, my
main concern has always been my fellow man. There is no more dangerous
creature on the face of the earth than man himself.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
  #23  
Old January 10th 04, 08:57 AM
GeoB
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

It would be interesting to know a little more of the
pre-event history.


Some years ago in California, there was a bounty on mountain lions.
The laws were changed, we then had a fairly long period when Mtn Lions
were not protected. During this entire time mtn lions were hunted for
'sport'. Each to his own, I suppose, but is it sport to take money
from a rich doctor in San Francisco, then you and yer buddy take a few
bottles of Jack Daniels and the dogs and your .22 rifle into the
hills. You swig away half the night listening to the hounds.
Occasionally you jump into the thrashed hunting pickup and go a couple
more miles on logging roads to where you can hear the hounds again.
Finally you hear the dogs tree the varmint. You hike up there, with
your booze and sleeping bag. Your buddy takes the truck down to the
tavern at the forks and calls the doctor, who takes a chartered Cessna
down the next day. Buddy stays around waiting to take the doctor up
the hill. Meanwhile, you toss your empty, then climb into the bag,
the dogs sitting around panting, pacing and belling once in a while to
keep the cat in the tree. Long about noon the doctor shows up, takes
the .22 and shoots the lion dead [1] The lion tumbles down, you take
pictures while the smiling satisfied doctor poses with his 'trophy',
then you haul everybody down the hill, dropping the carcass off at the
taxidermist.

Many/most other hunters hunted for their own enjoyment, but almost
every hunter used dogs to do the actual hunting.

IIRC, in June, 1990, in California, the Initiative Proposition #17 [2]
is passed and takes effect. This is designed to eliminate the trophy
'sport' hunting of the mtn lion, but not the taking of dangerous or
nuisance lions. There was more to the law.. also it provided for
purchasing land for wildlife sanctuaries, so that connecting corredors
could link existing wild land [4], and to acquire new habitat for
lions. Note that this also benefits other species as well. To my
knowledge this aspect of the bill (a direct expression of the people's
will) has never been implemented.

The Dept of Fish and Game trotted out their experts to say how this
would be a bad bill. They were the ones that previously had the
bounty on the lions until forced to lift it. They freely admit that
they see their mission as providing GAME animals for the hunters to
shoot. Surprisingly, they are funded from hunting licenses. They do
not see their mission is to provide a balanced healthy
ecosystem/foodchain in the mtns. They see OUR wildlands as a deer
farm. Now if you aren't a deer hunter, but another type of nature
lover, and would occasionally like to see a forest, complete with all
the members of the ecosystem alive and functioning, then the Dept of
Fish and Game does not work for you. It does, however, have control
of all of your animals.

Hunters were commonly against this bill. They have said that the mtn
lions kills too many deer and should be shot. Historically, though,
the time in history when we had the most deer [3] was the time when we
had the most mtn lions.

Many antagonists thought that it was stupid to allow a potential
man-killer to live in our recreational areas. The problem is that
over 99% of the mtn lion's previous range is forbidden him now. His
numbers are a tiny tiny fraction of what they used to be. The lion is
usually very shy. They can't live well around men and dogs [5] and
guns and cars and stuff. There has been an explosive growth in the
last thirty years of homes and communities being built in the canyons
and forests. People want to 'get back to nature'. Then they destroy
all the nature around them by taking their dogs and cats and .22's and
such up there.

Since the passing of this bill the population of mtn lions has really
grown. Sightings have increased many many times over. I saw one not
long ago myself jumping into the woods next to a mtn road (an old
logging RR grade here in the Sierras) that I like to ride on.
Competition for territory is part of the problem here. Old
experienced established lions drive young lions out. A male lion may
allow a female's terrtory to overlap his, but never another male's. A
male's territory typically is much larger than a females. Young lions
have a tough time getting established, and get pushed out into
civilized areas. Being young (and open to new ideas) they dont
realize that human meat will get them killed.

They aren't really competing with humans directly, for territory, it
is the other lions.

Many others thought that while it was a danger, the greater danger
would be to try to create a world that was all managed and artificial,
like a Japanese Garden (please, no flames, I respect the right of
people to enjoy their Japanese Gardens, OK?). Many of these
supporters thought that we have gone a long ways down that path... we
have almost given up our right to do any kind of dangerous thing! The
government appears to feel that its mission is to protect us from
EVERYTHING at all costs (to us). Some of us feel like we wouldn't
want to live in a world that had no more wilderness, had no more
un-managed wildlife (tame-life?). We thought, no, we don't want any
little girls carried off to the horrified screams of her frantic
mother... but.. somehow, in a larger way, we need to live in a real
world. Losing that for our children and children's children would be
a greater tragedy. We aren't greater than the natural world. We
haven't even really proven our viability as a species, over time. We
destroy our predators and change our environment to suit us (clothes,
houses, etc), then out-grow the sustaining ability of our territory.

I grew up just a whoop and a hollar from a wilderness area used to
spend a lot of time in there. I used to work for the USFS and fall
burning snags in the wilderness, using a misery whip. No engines
allowed. I love nature the way God made it, not as man makes it. I
probably notice things like animals in the forest before a more
urbanized guy might (no guarantee though). I love my daughter too. I
bought a .357 revolver and kept it within reach when I had my girl in
the forest. I use my eyes and brains. I teach my girl about forest
safety. If I lost her I would probably repudiate my current position
on this, but I feel we should have mtn lions. I kinda feel people
should be well-warned, taught what they need to know, then allowed to
enter mtn lion habitat after coming to a realization it isn't a walk
in the mall (though still probably safer).

TRIVIA:

Did you know that the American Black Bear, *STATISTICALLY* is more
likely to stalk and kill you for food than is a grizzly? Grizzlys
generally kill in self-defence or to defend their territory or young.
I didn't say that MORE people are killed by black bears. It seems to
me each year I hear about two or three people being killed by black
bears.

TRIVIA #2

Mtn lions kill several ways. Large males can jump on an animal hard
enough to actually break a full grown elks neck, just by the impact.
The most common way they kill deer is to bite through the back of the
skull into the brain. One may get me someday, but I hope it is after
I put up a good battle, slugging, kicking, yelling and throwing. If
he gets you down cover the back of your head, maybe with your fingers
interlaced behind your head. Don't play dead with a black bear or mtn
lion. But don't run from them either, if you can avoid it, that will
surely trigger a chase. Now if you have a reachable goal it might be
different. Having grown up around animals I think I'd just walk. I
have done that while being charged by a angry black bear mother and a
few dozen farm animals. I used to torment the bulls on the ranch
until they wanted to kill me (hey, I was a kid). Most of them won't
just up and kill you, they have to work up to it if they haven't been
tormented. Walking away has saved my bacon in some of those cases
too.


[1] These cats, statistically, were more often killed by small
caliber rifles or camp pistols than any other weapon. Treed, they are
easy to kill.

[2] California law (within my living memory) came to provide the
people with an initiative process of creating law. Previous to this
only the legislature could create law. Some of us came to realize
that the legislature sometimes was more motivated by it's perceived
self-interest than by 'our' self interest. Most opposed the creation
of the Initiative process.

[3] Some experts claim that there are now more deer in the United
States than at any time since before the revolutionary war. This is
mostly because so much mid-America farm land has gone back to the
wild.

[4] A big problem with comparatively small populations such as the
mtn lion is maintaining a good genetic variety for breeding.
Connecting corredors help keep gene pools from becoming stagnent and
isolated.

[5] Yes, I know that they can live unseen in a community for some
time, living off of cats and yap dogs on up to full grown German
Shepherds. Hereabouts, in 1990, IIRC, we had a mtn lion chase a
German Shepherd through his doggy door and kill him in a kitchen. In
the north edge of town. Don't bother doing a search on this, it
didn't get to the media. I was involved with mtn lions at that time
and got the report. Fish and Game friend of my bud called him and
asked him if he had had any trouble with the stock or dogs or
anything. "No, why?". "We have a radio collar on a lion who has been
hiding on your place in the woods above your house for a couple of
days now". Folks in that area lose a lot of dogs. Which doesn't
bother me a whit even though I am a "dog, pickup and Levis" guy (but I
don't cuss or spit er nuthin). I feel that it is senseless
destruction of our wild areas to turn these animals lose there.
People move up to the mtns, then rare back and say, " You'all are flat
landers! Ahm a mtn-man now!" but then they destroy the nature of the
wild they wanted when they moved up there.
  #24  
Old January 11th 04, 06:09 AM
Jeff Potter
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Default OT Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

OT...off topic...goes without saying, but might as well try to obey netiquette, eh?

My uncle is an old lion hunter.

This summer he told me that the period of bans on lion hunting awhile back resulted in dominant toms
surviving to rule their roosts for years, driving off all new tom-kits every year into new areas further
and further from the homelands. The dominant toms pushed the young toms into THE HUMAN SUBURBS. Disaster
results.

A dominant tom claims a hundred square miles of turf. He kills every tom-kit he breeds, every year, or
forces them off his territory. If there is an active predator above the tom, then the tom territory is
opened up every year or two. Big, old toms hog TONS of territory. LOTS of tom-kits (100 POUNDS AFTER ONE
YEAR!) can fit into the territory of an old tom. But the hunting ban let these guys live FOREVER in cat
years. Nothing replaced them. The kits were forced into small areas. They weren't hunted either. Lots of
(BIG) kits, all around people! --Trouble!

The problem was that Man is on the top of the food chain in terms of habitat but was not behaving as if
he was on top in terms of dominance and territory. You can't do one without the other without throwing
things off. If you're not going to hunt toms, then you can't live within 200 miles of them. Plain and
simple. Rule of nature. A few old toms occupy the first 100 miles, dozens of big young toms then crown
into the remaining 100 miles: trouble.

Solution: let the trophy hunters knock off a few old toms and the young ones have LOTS more elbow room.

Manage them in a way that fits critters that each need 20 miles.

If you let the Kings rule the roost, you have their big kits in your backyard.

Interesting stuff.

---

Jeff Potter
****
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  #26  
Old January 11th 04, 08:50 AM
Freewheeling
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:55:38 +0100, "DH" wrote:

I do not know a solution when a killer animal and human
occupy the same place.


Sure you do.
http://www.demosophia.com
  #27  
Old January 11th 04, 08:53 AM
Freewheeling
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 18:33:58 -0600, Tom Sherman
wrote:

Until the microorganisms get you in the end.


They usually get me through the nose or mouth first.
http://www.demosophia.com
  #28  
Old January 11th 04, 08:54 AM
Freewheeling
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:21:26 -0600, "Pat" wrote:

Around humans, they have been timid, shy, and reclusive.



Apparently he *has* been attending group therapy.
http://www.demosophia.com
  #30  
Old January 11th 04, 09:14 AM
Freewheeling
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

On 9 Jan 2004 23:57:56 -0800, (GeoB) wrote:

I
bought a .357 revolver and kept it within reach when I had my girl in
the forest.


Why can't people just do that? I'd probably prefer a Colt Government
Model 45ACP though.
http://www.demosophia.com
 




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