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#11
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Trek Emonda / Gravel & Rail Trail
On Sunday, May 31, 2015 at 11:28:42 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote: Hi folks... I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would hold up? Thanks... B I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more sane.) My main worry would be tight clearances. It comes with 23mm tires and minimal tire clearance; and that's all fashion, with no significant advantages but significant detriments. On crushed limestone surfaces, it's not unusual to get limestone "crumbs" or bigger pebbles swept into the fork crown or chainstay-bottom-bracket area. I'd be worried about clotting up the tire-to-frame space in those locations, and perhaps picking up a stone that locks a wheel. I'd want a bike on which I could put 28mm tires plus fenders. But I wouldn't worry about your frame breaking. -- - Frank Krygowski 35C |
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#12
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Trek Emonda / Gravel & Rail Trail
On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:46:00 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote: Hi folks... I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would hold up? Thanks... B I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more sane.) http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes I'd be a bit concerned about carbon. I suspect that it would depend on the alloy of titanium that is used in the frame tubing and there are at least 50 different grades at my last count. As a quick comparison 304L Stainless has a tensile strength of 486 MPa (70,343 psi). Titanium grade 1 is 240 MPa (34,809 psi) and Grade 5, which seems to be about the upper strength limit, is 895 MPa (129,808 psi). As a further comparison Aluminum 6061-T6 is 290 MPa (42,000 psi) and Columbus Nobium steel alloy is 1050 - 1250 MPa ( 152,000 - 181,000 psi) My main worry would be tight clearances. It comes with 23mm tires and minimal tire clearance; and that's all fashion, with no significant advantages but significant detriments. On crushed limestone surfaces, it's not unusual to get limestone "crumbs" or bigger pebbles swept into the fork crown or chainstay-bottom-bracket area. I'd be worried about clotting up the tire-to-frame space in those locations, and perhaps picking up a stone that locks a wheel. I'd want a bike on which I could put 28mm tires plus fenders. But I wouldn't worry about your frame breaking. Agree, if there is a 23mm limit that's no good. At least it wouldn't be for me. IIRC even a lot of Amgen participants were riding 25mm. -- cheers, John B. |
#13
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Trek Emonda / Gravel & Rail Trail
On 02/06/15 03:46, Joerg wrote:
Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? This is a stupid question. -- JS |
#14
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Trek Emonda / Gravel & Rail Trail
On 02/06/15 10:53, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:46:00 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote: Hi folks... I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would hold up? Thanks... B I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more sane.) http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes I'd be a bit concerned about carbon. I suspect that it would depend on the alloy of titanium that is used in the frame tubing and there are at least 50 different grades at my last count. As a quick comparison 304L Stainless has a tensile strength of 486 MPa (70,343 psi). Titanium grade 1 is 240 MPa (34,809 psi) and Grade 5, which seems to be about the upper strength limit, is 895 MPa (129,808 psi). As a further comparison Aluminum 6061-T6 is 290 MPa (42,000 psi) and Columbus Nobium steel alloy is 1050 - 1250 MPa ( 152,000 - 181,000 psi) It depends greatly on the frame design and tubing used. My steel frame felt subjectively stiffer than a mates titanium frame. The two are about the same size, and his is slightly lighter but mine feels slightly stiffer. Certainly I have encountered bikes where the chain rings wobble left and right when you are heaving on the pedals, but my steel frame is not like this. The chain rings barely show signs of flex in the frame at all, with all my strength applied. -- JS |
#15
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Trek Emonda / Gravel & Rail Trail
On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 7:46:03 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote: Hi folks... I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would hold up? Thanks... B I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more sane.) http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes I'd be a bit concerned about carbon. Ti has half the stiffness of Steel. You have to design around this. Fat downtube and fat bottom bracket shells are the answer for your problem. Look at the CF frames and Al frames. If you like the look of the skinny steel frames than you have a problem. Lou Lou |
#16
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Trek Emonda / Gravel & Rail Trail
On Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:26:55 +1000, James
wrote: On 02/06/15 10:53, John B. wrote: On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:46:00 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote: Hi folks... I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would hold up? Thanks... B I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more sane.) http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes I'd be a bit concerned about carbon. I suspect that it would depend on the alloy of titanium that is used in the frame tubing and there are at least 50 different grades at my last count. As a quick comparison 304L Stainless has a tensile strength of 486 MPa (70,343 psi). Titanium grade 1 is 240 MPa (34,809 psi) and Grade 5, which seems to be about the upper strength limit, is 895 MPa (129,808 psi). As a further comparison Aluminum 6061-T6 is 290 MPa (42,000 psi) and Columbus Nobium steel alloy is 1050 - 1250 MPa ( 152,000 - 181,000 psi) It depends greatly on the frame design and tubing used. My steel frame felt subjectively stiffer than a mates titanium frame. The two are about the same size, and his is slightly lighter but mine feels slightly stiffer. Certainly I have encountered bikes where the chain rings wobble left and right when you are heaving on the pedals, but my steel frame is not like this. The chain rings barely show signs of flex in the frame at all, with all my strength applied. I really wonder how much B.B. movement there actually is/was? After all, people like Eddy Merckx or Bernard Hinault or Lance Armstrong for that matter didn't seem to be continually whining about the bottom bracket flexing. My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember bike magazines making a big meal out of it either. Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-) -- cheers, John B. |
#17
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Trek Emonda / Gravel & Rail Trail
On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 2:23:59 AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 7:46:03 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote: On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote: Hi folks... I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would hold up? Thanks... B I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more sane.) http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes I'd be a bit concerned about carbon. Ti has half the stiffness of Steel. You have to design around this. Fat downtube and fat bottom bracket shells are the answer for your problem. Look at the CF frames and Al frames. If you like the look of the skinny steel frames than you have a problem. Lou Lou TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTiiiiiii as CF loomed on the horizon, Lightspeed via Colorado Cyclist began adverting frames with octagonal hexagonal and various tubing beam shapes in Ti. I assume these are now collectors frames. |
#18
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Trek Emonda / Gravel & Rail Trail
On 2015-06-02 4:25 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:26:55 +1000, James wrote: On 02/06/15 10:53, John B. wrote: On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:46:00 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote: Hi folks... I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would hold up? Thanks... B I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more sane.) http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes I'd be a bit concerned about carbon. I suspect that it would depend on the alloy of titanium that is used in the frame tubing and there are at least 50 different grades at my last count. As a quick comparison 304L Stainless has a tensile strength of 486 MPa (70,343 psi). Titanium grade 1 is 240 MPa (34,809 psi) and Grade 5, which seems to be about the upper strength limit, is 895 MPa (129,808 psi). As a further comparison Aluminum 6061-T6 is 290 MPa (42,000 psi) and Columbus Nobium steel alloy is 1050 - 1250 MPa ( 152,000 - 181,000 psi) It depends greatly on the frame design and tubing used. My steel frame felt subjectively stiffer than a mates titanium frame. The two are about the same size, and his is slightly lighter but mine feels slightly stiffer. Certainly I have encountered bikes where the chain rings wobble left and right when you are heaving on the pedals, but my steel frame is not like this. The chain rings barely show signs of flex in the frame at all, with all my strength applied. The titanium MTB of my friend is the most rigid a stiff-framed bike I've ever ridden (except for carbon). So yes, with your numbers the magic really seems to be in the frame design. With titanium one can splurge more than with heavier materials. I really wonder how much B.B. movement there actually is/was? After all, people like Eddy Merckx or Bernard Hinault or Lance Armstrong for that matter didn't seem to be continually whining about the bottom bracket flexing. Well, they had paying sponsors and didn't have to worry when the front derailleur had rubbed through again. My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember bike magazines making a big meal out of it either. Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-) It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point where the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to accomodate more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So if I am shifting 2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move the friction shifter for the front to avoid the wee grinding pulses. Now that I mounted a set of MTB sprockets it's gotten a little better as I don't need to apply so much torque anymore. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#19
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Trek Emonda / Gravel & Rail Trail
On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 4:25 AM, John B. wrote: On Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:26:55 +1000, James wrote: On 02/06/15 10:53, John B. wrote: On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:46:00 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote: Hi folks... I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would hold up? Thanks... B I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more sane.) http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes I'd be a bit concerned about carbon. I suspect that it would depend on the alloy of titanium that is used in the frame tubing and there are at least 50 different grades at my last count. As a quick comparison 304L Stainless has a tensile strength of 486 MPa (70,343 psi). Titanium grade 1 is 240 MPa (34,809 psi) and Grade 5, which seems to be about the upper strength limit, is 895 MPa (129,808 psi). As a further comparison Aluminum 6061-T6 is 290 MPa (42,000 psi) and Columbus Nobium steel alloy is 1050 - 1250 MPa ( 152,000 - 181,000 psi) It depends greatly on the frame design and tubing used. My steel frame felt subjectively stiffer than a mates titanium frame. The two are about the same size, and his is slightly lighter but mine feels slightly stiffer. Certainly I have encountered bikes where the chain rings wobble left and right when you are heaving on the pedals, but my steel frame is not like this. The chain rings barely show signs of flex in the frame at all, with all my strength applied. The titanium MTB of my friend is the most rigid a stiff-framed bike I've ever ridden (except for carbon). So yes, with your numbers the magic really seems to be in the frame design. With titanium one can splurge more than with heavier materials. I really wonder how much B.B. movement there actually is/was? After all, people like Eddy Merckx or Bernard Hinault or Lance Armstrong for that matter didn't seem to be continually whining about the bottom bracket flexing. Well, they had paying sponsors and didn't have to worry when the front derailleur had rubbed through again. My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember bike magazines making a big meal out of it either. Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-) It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point where the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to accomodate more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So if I am shifting 2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move the friction shifter for the front to avoid the wee grinding pulses. Now that I mounted a set of MTB sprockets it's gotten a little better as I don't need to apply so much torque anymore. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Trimming the front derailler as you shif a few gears in back is standard operating procedure. There were some Shimano and Suntour top of the downtube mounted gear shifters that had an internal cam action so that shifts with the right rear shifter caused the front shifter to automatically trim the front derailler. Cheers |
#20
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Trek Emonda / Gravel & Rail Trail
On 2015-06-02 10:23 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2015-06-02 4:25 AM, John B. wrote: On Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:26:55 +1000, James wrote: On 02/06/15 10:53, John B. wrote: On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:46:00 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote: Hi folks... I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while I plan to be on the road most of the time, I wonder how it will put up with rail-trail and minor "off road" type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the Emonda would hold up? Thanks... B I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically, assuming you mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg rides is epic and bike-destroying, as he's made clear. I'm assuming your use will be more sane.) http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross) frame has as much chain ring sway as a steel frame when hammering up a hill? Carbon frames don't have that problem at all but with my usual riding routes I'd be a bit concerned about carbon. I suspect that it would depend on the alloy of titanium that is used in the frame tubing and there are at least 50 different grades at my last count. As a quick comparison 304L Stainless has a tensile strength of 486 MPa (70,343 psi). Titanium grade 1 is 240 MPa (34,809 psi) and Grade 5, which seems to be about the upper strength limit, is 895 MPa (129,808 psi). As a further comparison Aluminum 6061-T6 is 290 MPa (42,000 psi) and Columbus Nobium steel alloy is 1050 - 1250 MPa ( 152,000 - 181,000 psi) It depends greatly on the frame design and tubing used. My steel frame felt subjectively stiffer than a mates titanium frame. The two are about the same size, and his is slightly lighter but mine feels slightly stiffer. Certainly I have encountered bikes where the chain rings wobble left and right when you are heaving on the pedals, but my steel frame is not like this. The chain rings barely show signs of flex in the frame at all, with all my strength applied. The titanium MTB of my friend is the most rigid a stiff-framed bike I've ever ridden (except for carbon). So yes, with your numbers the magic really seems to be in the frame design. With titanium one can splurge more than with heavier materials. I really wonder how much B.B. movement there actually is/was? After all, people like Eddy Merckx or Bernard Hinault or Lance Armstrong for that matter didn't seem to be continually whining about the bottom bracket flexing. Well, they had paying sponsors and didn't have to worry when the front derailleur had rubbed through again. My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember bike magazines making a big meal out of it either. Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-) It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point where the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to accomodate more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So if I am shifting 2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move the friction shifter for the front to avoid the wee grinding pulses. Now that I mounted a set of MTB sprockets it's gotten a little better as I don't need to apply so much torque anymore. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Trimming the front derailler as you shif a few gears in back is standard operating procedure. Not on my mountain bike. Nowadays it isn't even possible anymore because index shifter can't trim during the ride. The MTB does have slight chain ring wobble so the adjustment needs to be quite precise. There were some Shimano and Suntour top of the downtube mounted gear shifters that had an internal cam action so that shifts with the right rear shifter caused the front shifter to automatically trim the front derailler. That would be nice but the Shimano 600 series didn't have that back then. What impressed me with a titanium MTB frame was the almost total absence of chain ring wobble. I am wondering whether that would be the same on cyclo-cross titanium frames. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
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