Mavic in receivership

On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 9:38:14 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 3:55:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/10/2020 4:29 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 9:33:16 PM UTC+1, wrote:

...what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today. Why would you think that people would be willing to pay $2,000 for a pair of Zip wheels instead of $300 for a pair of Kyseriums? If you try riding them you can barely tell the difference. Certainly up to amateur racers you can't tell the difference unless like me you descend at very high speed. Mavic shoes are very high quality and moderate pricing. Mavic has been making framesets for a long time but not advertising them.

I'm sure that someone could make a real go of them. And making aluminum deep section aero rims would steal a great deal of the carbon fiber wheels market away. Have you used carbon fiber wheels with rim brakes? Are you aware of the engineering nightmare of disk brakes?

All in all Mavic should be in a very good position but perhaps the union problems in France are what killed them?

Tom, I'm wondering if the people who have been batting Mavic around like a financial table tennis ball actually know anything about the products you list. It is pretty common for investors of the type these appear to be to see the greatest value in the goodwill of a great name, to buy sometimes financially and otherwise mismanaged big-name firms at anything from bargain to over the top prices in the hope of selling the big name to a Chinese sucker for a very big payday. Meanwhile they put in only enough money to keep the big name alive but not to develop new products, and they don't care that the Chinese buyer will drag the name through the mud with overpriced but cheapened products.

Andre Jute
They way of the world


You're right and we've seen that movie before - several
dozen times in our small industry and hundreds of times out
in the larger world.

One of my bicycle buddies is in that business. He becomes CEO or CFO of some company purchased by a private equity group and gets it shaped up for resale. The investors tend to keep the technical staff and sometimes even the founder for a period of time, but the idea is to get it managed and ready to sell.

Some of those great brands of yore were horribly mis-managed and died because of labor or market issues, like Schwinn. The private equity guys weren't just arbitragers, at least not to start. If the business model is unsustainable and the company cannot be shaped-up, then they will part it out..

It seems that the big deal these days is owning the IP and getting a royalty stream while letting other people make the product, although I don't think that would be the model for Mavic.

I could see Cannondale or some other company with no wheel brand buying it up dirt cheap and bringing it in house like Roval or Bontrager. Maybe even develop some OE wheels that aren't good for just holding-up the bike in the showroom. It used to be that expensive bikes came with nice wheels, but not so much anymore. I got some cheap Mavic wheels OE on my Super Six, and they wouldn't stay true for an entire ride.

It has been taught to children that they don't want to carry on the old man's business but that they should make their own way through the world. That is why such a large percentage of today's kids have education bills that they will never be able to repay and companies like Schwinn and Chevrolet haven't even had a family member of the boards for two generations.

Schwinn's family members rode the company into bankruptcy. Chevrolet sold his shares in the company in 1915. My family's business -- a small-town pharmacy, is not sustainable. My father told all of us not to follow in his footsteps. The family business: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/31/01...a01d26ff47.jpg It's now a boutique of some sort or a high-end shoe store, probably owned by the wife of a billionaire with nothing better to do. A lot of family businesses don't make sense anymore, unless the family business was real estate or McDonalds franchises -- or a bodega.

Schwinn simply didn't know how to market high end bicycles. They made some great ones that are now marketed under the name of Waterford and are the best steel bikes on the market in my opinion.

Chevrolet was always a part of General Motors Corporation I believe which I think was founded by Durant? who owned Buick and manufactured cars long before Chevrolet. So they would have had to be more or less stock holders from the start don't you think?

On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 3:33:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Russell, what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today.

You are a bit confused. You meant to say Ksyrium are one of the most "seen" wheelsets on midlevel and lower new bicycles. Seen and sold are not the same thing in this instance. Mavic Ksyrium wheels come or came on many bicycles sold by official bicycle shop retailers. They came/come on the big mainstream bicycle company bikes. Mavic sells them at pennies on the dollar to these big bike makers. They spec them on the new bikes sold at retail bike shops. They are really a method of advertising for Mavic. Not a profit center. They get, keep the Mavic name on people's minds by selling Mavic Ksyrium wheels on new bikes. But no one thinks Mavic is any good at making wheels anymore. So when crazy bicyclists go to spending thousands and thousands of dollars on absurd expensive bike parts to upgrade their bicycle, they do not even think of Mavic. They think Zipp, Enve, Campagnolo, Lightweight, Fulcrum.

On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 12:53:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 3:33:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Russell, what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today.

You are a bit confused. You meant to say Ksyrium are one of the most "seen" wheelsets on midlevel and lower new bicycles. Seen and sold are not the same thing in this instance. Mavic Ksyrium wheels come or came on many bicycles sold by official bicycle shop retailers. They came/come on the big mainstream bicycle company bikes. Mavic sells them at pennies on the dollar to these big bike makers. They spec them on the new bikes sold at retail bike shops. They are really a method of advertising for Mavic. Not a profit center. They get, keep the Mavic name on people's minds by selling Mavic Ksyrium wheels on new bikes. But no one thinks Mavic is any good at making wheels anymore. So when crazy bicyclists go to spending thousands and thousands of dollars on absurd expensive bike parts to upgrade their bicycle, they do not even think of Mavic. They think Zipp, Enve, Campagnolo, Lightweight, Fulcrum.

I should also say that Mavic got their OEM piece of the action because once upon a time Mavic was a well known, respected wheel maker. Eddy, Hinault, Kelly almost certainly used Mavic rims. So big bike companies wanted the brand name of Mavic on their wheels on the bikes they sold. Customers thought Mavic meant quality so would be willing to pay more for a bike with Mavic wheels. Big bike company pays Mavic $100 for some Ksyrium wheels. Marks bike up by an extra $75 because it has Mavic wheels. Customer buys bike because it has Mavic wheels and thinks its cool, professional. Everyone is happy except maybe Mavic because they had to sell their wheelsets at 50% to the bike maker.

On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 11:05:48 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 12:53:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 3:33:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Russell, what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today.

You are a bit confused. You meant to say Ksyrium are one of the most "seen" wheelsets on midlevel and lower new bicycles. Seen and sold are not the same thing in this instance. Mavic Ksyrium wheels come or came on many bicycles sold by official bicycle shop retailers. They came/come on the big mainstream bicycle company bikes. Mavic sells them at pennies on the dollar to these big bike makers. They spec them on the new bikes sold at retail bike shops. They are really a method of advertising for Mavic. Not a profit center. They get, keep the Mavic name on people's minds by selling Mavic Ksyrium wheels on new bikes. But no one thinks Mavic is any good at making wheels anymore. So when crazy bicyclists go to spending thousands and thousands of dollars on absurd expensive bike parts to upgrade their bicycle, they do not even think of Mavic. They think Zipp, Enve, Campagnolo, Lightweight, Fulcrum.

I should also say that Mavic got their OEM piece of the action because once upon a time Mavic was a well known, respected wheel maker. Eddy, Hinault, Kelly almost certainly used Mavic rims. So big bike companies wanted the brand name of Mavic on their wheels on the bikes they sold. Customers thought Mavic meant quality so would be willing to pay more for a bike with Mavic wheels. Big bike company pays Mavic $100 for some Ksyrium wheels. Marks bike up by an extra $75 because it has Mavic wheels. Customer buys bike because it has Mavic wheels and thinks its cool, professional. Everyone is happy except maybe Mavic because they had to sell their wheelsets at 50% to the bike maker.

Well, the Mavic OEM market certainly failed to me a price point low enough to keep the major brands from going to China for cheaper wheels.

On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 11:55:30 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/10/2020 4:29 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 9:33:16 PM UTC+1, wrote:

...what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today. Why would you think that people would be willing to pay $2,000 for a pair of Zip wheels instead of $300 for a pair of Kyseriums? If you try riding them you can barely tell the difference. Certainly up to amateur racers you can't tell the difference unless like me you descend at very high speed. Mavic shoes are very high quality and moderate pricing. Mavic has been making framesets for a long time but not advertising them.

I'm sure that someone could make a real go of them. And making aluminum deep section aero rims would steal a great deal of the carbon fiber wheels market away. Have you used carbon fiber wheels with rim brakes? Are you aware of the engineering nightmare of disk brakes?

All in all Mavic should be in a very good position but perhaps the union problems in France are what killed them?

Tom, I'm wondering if the people who have been batting Mavic around like a financial table tennis ball actually know anything about the products you list. It is pretty common for investors of the type these appear to be to see the greatest value in the goodwill of a great name, to buy sometimes financially and otherwise mismanaged big-name firms at anything from bargain to over the top prices in the hope of selling the big name to a Chinese sucker for a very big payday. Meanwhile they put in only enough money to keep the big name alive but not to develop new products, and they don't care that the Chinese buyer will drag the name through the mud with overpriced but cheapened products.

Andre Jute
They way of the world


You're right and we've seen that movie before - several
dozen times in our small industry and hundreds of times out
in the larger world.

One of my bicycle buddies is in that business. He becomes CEO or CFO of some company purchased by a private equity group and gets it shaped up for resale. The investors tend to keep the technical staff and sometimes even the founder for a period of time, but the idea is to get it managed and ready to sell.

Some of those great brands of yore were horribly mis-managed and died because of labor or market issues, like Schwinn. The private equity guys weren't just arbitragers, at least not to start. If the business model is unsustainable and the company cannot be shaped-up, then they will part it out.

It seems that the big deal these days is owning the IP and getting a royalty stream while letting other people make the product, although I don't think that would be the model for Mavic.

I could see Cannondale or some other company with no wheel brand buying it up dirt cheap and bringing it in house like Roval or Bontrager. Maybe even develop some OE wheels that aren't good for just holding-up the bike in the showroom. It used to be that expensive bikes came with nice wheels, but not so much anymore. I got some cheap Mavic wheels OE on my Super Six, and they wouldn't stay true for an entire ride.

It has been taught to children that they don't want to carry on the old man's business but that they should make their own way through the world. That is why such a large percentage of today's kids have education bills that they will never be able to repay and companies like Schwinn and Chevrolet haven't even had a family member of the boards for two generations.

Much longer than two generations in the case of General Motors, founded on the Chevrolet brand. Louis Chevrolet was racer and a mechanic, not a businessman.

Andre Jute
Think of the children

On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 2:03:30 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 11:55:30 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/10/2020 4:29 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 9:33:16 PM UTC+1, wrote:

...what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today. Why would you think that people would be willing to pay $2,000 for a pair of Zip wheels instead of $300 for a pair of Kyseriums? If you try riding them you can barely tell the difference. Certainly up to amateur racers you can't tell the difference unless like me you descend at very high speed. Mavic shoes are very high quality and moderate pricing. Mavic has been making framesets for a long time but not advertising them.

I'm sure that someone could make a real go of them. And making aluminum deep section aero rims would steal a great deal of the carbon fiber wheels market away. Have you used carbon fiber wheels with rim brakes? Are you aware of the engineering nightmare of disk brakes?

All in all Mavic should be in a very good position but perhaps the union problems in France are what killed them?

Tom, I'm wondering if the people who have been batting Mavic around like a financial table tennis ball actually know anything about the products you list. It is pretty common for investors of the type these appear to be to see the greatest value in the goodwill of a great name, to buy sometimes financially and otherwise mismanaged big-name firms at anything from bargain to over the top prices in the hope of selling the big name to a Chinese sucker for a very big payday. Meanwhile they put in only enough money to keep the big name alive but not to develop new products, and they don't care that the Chinese buyer will drag the name through the mud with overpriced but cheapened products.

Andre Jute
They way of the world


You're right and we've seen that movie before - several
dozen times in our small industry and hundreds of times out
in the larger world.

One of my bicycle buddies is in that business. He becomes CEO or CFO of some company purchased by a private equity group and gets it shaped up for resale. The investors tend to keep the technical staff and sometimes even the founder for a period of time, but the idea is to get it managed and ready to sell.

Some of those great brands of yore were horribly mis-managed and died because of labor or market issues, like Schwinn. The private equity guys weren't just arbitragers, at least not to start. If the business model is unsustainable and the company cannot be shaped-up, then they will part it out..

It seems that the big deal these days is owning the IP and getting a royalty stream while letting other people make the product, although I don't think that would be the model for Mavic.

I could see Cannondale or some other company with no wheel brand buying it up dirt cheap and bringing it in house like Roval or Bontrager. Maybe even develop some OE wheels that aren't good for just holding-up the bike in the showroom. It used to be that expensive bikes came with nice wheels, but not so much anymore. I got some cheap Mavic wheels OE on my Super Six, and they wouldn't stay true for an entire ride.

It has been taught to children that they don't want to carry on the old man's business but that they should make their own way through the world. That is why such a large percentage of today's kids have education bills that they will never be able to repay and companies like Schwinn and Chevrolet haven't even had a family member of the boards for two generations.

Much longer than two generations in the case of General Motors, founded on the Chevrolet brand. Louis Chevrolet was racer and a mechanic, not a businessman.

Andre Jute
Think of the children

Pretty sure that William Durant started General Motors as an aggregation of brands from his Buick company. My father, whenever he could afford it, owned Buicks.

On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 11:14:50 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 2:03:30 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 11:55:30 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 3:28:45 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 2:40:32 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/10/2020 4:29 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 9:33:16 PM UTC+1, wrote:

...what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today. Why would you think that people would be willing to pay $2,000 for a pair of Zip wheels instead of $300 for a pair of Kyseriums? If you try riding them you can barely tell the difference. Certainly up to amateur racers you can't tell the difference unless like me you descend at very high speed. Mavic shoes are very high quality and moderate pricing. Mavic has been making framesets for a long time but not advertising them.

I'm sure that someone could make a real go of them. And making aluminum deep section aero rims would steal a great deal of the carbon fiber wheels market away. Have you used carbon fiber wheels with rim brakes? Are you aware of the engineering nightmare of disk brakes?

All in all Mavic should be in a very good position but perhaps the union problems in France are what killed them?

Tom, I'm wondering if the people who have been batting Mavic around like a financial table tennis ball actually know anything about the products you list. It is pretty common for investors of the type these appear to be to see the greatest value in the goodwill of a great name, to buy sometimes financially and otherwise mismanaged big-name firms at anything from bargain to over the top prices in the hope of selling the big name to a Chinese sucker for a very big payday. Meanwhile they put in only enough money to keep the big name alive but not to develop new products, and they don't care that the Chinese buyer will drag the name through the mud with overpriced but cheapened products.

Andre Jute
They way of the world


You're right and we've seen that movie before - several
dozen times in our small industry and hundreds of times out
in the larger world.

One of my bicycle buddies is in that business. He becomes CEO or CFO of some company purchased by a private equity group and gets it shaped up for resale. The investors tend to keep the technical staff and sometimes even the founder for a period of time, but the idea is to get it managed and ready to sell.

Some of those great brands of yore were horribly mis-managed and died because of labor or market issues, like Schwinn. The private equity guys weren't just arbitragers, at least not to start. If the business model is unsustainable and the company cannot be shaped-up, then they will part it out.

It seems that the big deal these days is owning the IP and getting a royalty stream while letting other people make the product, although I don't think that would be the model for Mavic.

I could see Cannondale or some other company with no wheel brand buying it up dirt cheap and bringing it in house like Roval or Bontrager. Maybe even develop some OE wheels that aren't good for just holding-up the bike in the showroom. It used to be that expensive bikes came with nice wheels, but not so much anymore. I got some cheap Mavic wheels OE on my Super Six, and they wouldn't stay true for an entire ride.

It has been taught to children that they don't want to carry on the old man's business but that they should make their own way through the world.. That is why such a large percentage of today's kids have education bills that they will never be able to repay and companies like Schwinn and Chevrolet haven't even had a family member of the boards for two generations.

Much longer than two generations in the case of General Motors, founded on the Chevrolet brand. Louis Chevrolet was racer and a mechanic, not a businessman.

Andre Jute
Think of the children

Pretty sure that William Durant started General Motors as an aggregation of brands from his Buick company. My father, whenever he could afford it, owned Buicks.

Sure, Durant founded GM. He bought out Chevrolet. He bought out other brands too. Buick was a decent car for the decent middle classes, sort of the center on which all the other brands pivoted. -- AJ

On Friday, 8 May 2020 20:05:45 UTC-4, Mark J. wrote:
Didn't see that one coming.

Mark J.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mav...tery-takeover/

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/mavic-...in-france.html

"Mavic's Social and Economic Committee is demanding accounts from Salomon (a skiing brand under the umbrella of Amer Sports, and a co-resident of Mavic’s Annecy factory)[…]."

In case you were in need of more irony in your diet, "amer" is French for "bitter."
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO

On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 7:08:23 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/11/2020 12:53 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 3:33:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Russell, what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today.

You are a bit confused. You meant to say Ksyrium are one of the most "seen" wheelsets on midlevel and lower new bicycles. Seen and sold are not the same thing in this instance. Mavic Ksyrium wheels come or came on many bicycles sold by official bicycle shop retailers. They came/come on the big mainstream bicycle company bikes. Mavic sells them at pennies on the dollar to these big bike makers. They spec them on the new bikes sold at retail bike shops. They are really a method of advertising for Mavic. Not a profit center. They get, keep the Mavic name on people's minds by selling Mavic Ksyrium wheels on new bikes. But no one thinks Mavic is any good at making wheels anymore. So when crazy bicyclists go to spending thousands and thousands of dollars on absurd expensive bike parts to upgrade their bicycle, they do not even think of Mavic. They think Zipp, Enve, Campagnolo, Lightweight, Fulcrum.



+1

Note Fulcrum is Campagnolo

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Yes. I am assuming, (incorrectly?), that everyone knows Fulcrum is Campagnolo's other brand. Created I assume to get in on the wheel building business. After market, upgraded, wheels are a big business for bicycles. And Fulcrum has Shimano/SRAM cassette bodies on their wheels. As well as the proper Campagnolo hub body. Whereas Campagnolo cannot be bought with the evil Shimano hub body. Evil Shimano bike riders cannot buy the beloved Campagnolo brand wheels for their inferior bikes. They must make do with the off brand Fulcrum wheels with Shimano hub bodies. Yes, I know Campagnolo and Fulcrum wheels are 100% identical except for label.

On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 9:59:40 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, May 11, 2020 at 7:08:23 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/11/2020 12:53 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, May 9, 2020 at 3:33:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Russell, what I was saying is that Mavic's business is not gone. The Kyserium is one of the most popular wheels sold today.

You are a bit confused. You meant to say Ksyrium are one of the most "seen" wheelsets on midlevel and lower new bicycles. Seen and sold are not the same thing in this instance. Mavic Ksyrium wheels come or came on many bicycles sold by official bicycle shop retailers. They came/come on the big mainstream bicycle company bikes. Mavic sells them at pennies on the dollar to these big bike makers. They spec them on the new bikes sold at retail bike shops. They are really a method of advertising for Mavic. Not a profit center. They get, keep the Mavic name on people's minds by selling Mavic Ksyrium wheels on new bikes. But no one thinks Mavic is any good at making wheels anymore. So when crazy bicyclists go to spending thousands and thousands of dollars on absurd expensive bike parts to upgrade their bicycle, they do not even think of Mavic. They think Zipp, Enve, Campagnolo, Lightweight, Fulcrum.



+1

Note Fulcrum is Campagnolo

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Yes. I am assuming, (incorrectly?), that everyone knows Fulcrum is Campagnolo's other brand. Created I assume to get in on the wheel building business. After market, upgraded, wheels are a big business for bicycles. And Fulcrum has Shimano/SRAM cassette bodies on their wheels. As well as the proper Campagnolo hub body. Whereas Campagnolo cannot be bought with the evil Shimano hub body. Evil Shimano bike riders cannot buy the beloved Campagnolo brand wheels for their inferior bikes. They must make do with the off brand Fulcrum wheels with Shimano hub bodies. Yes, I know Campagnolo and Fulcrum wheels are 100% identical except for label.

I just lent an inferior Shimano front brake caliper -- an early Ultegra dual pivot from the '90s -- to my neighbor and best bike buddy because one of the Ti bits on his Record front caliper broke. The brake looks totally out of place on his Pinarello and has caused the other Record components to weep uncontrollably. I'm sure they're feeling a disturbance in the Force in Vicenza. I was going to loan him a 1970's NR caliper, but that's a no-go with the left Ergo lever.

-- Jay Beattie.