Bike adjustments

As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this.. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?

Lou

On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 3:28:56 PM UTC-8, wrote:
As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?

Lou

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

The measurements are intended to impress you. Shop drawings and proposals?
What, are you buying from General Dynamics? What are you buying?

Back in the day, seat tube length was a big deal, but now with compacts and long seat posts, the important measurement is TT, so I suppose they're trying to get your TT just right to size the bike with a stem that is not too short or too long, which might affect steering in some metaphysical way. Unless you're built like ET, they'll pull a "medium" out of stock, declare it custom and hand it to you.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

Andre Jute
My bikes all fit me to within 1mm. Why shouldn't they?

On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what? My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.

Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen, what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?

-- Jay Beattie.

On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 7:13:30 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what? My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.

Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen, what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?

-- Jay Beattie.

Mythology Jay. Cycling is rife with it and you know that.

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 2:40:40 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 7:13:30 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what? My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.

Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen, what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?

-- Jay Beattie.

Mythology Jay. Cycling is rife with it and you know that.

A fellow I know went to an LBS where the fitter had "a bigger rep than the guy who hands you your coffee at the machine". He thought *he* was being fitted but after a lot of shoving and pushing, the clerk said, outraged, "You don't fit any of our bikes!"

*****

The customer complained that his new suit didn't fit. 'The sleeves are too short,' he said to the tailor.

'Yes sir,' said the tailor, 'but if you hold your arm just so, at an angle as if you're drinking tea with your auntie, it will show just the right amount of cuff.'

The customer tried it. The tailor was right! 'But what about the other sleeve? It is definitely too short.'

'Just lower your shoulder, sir. Yes, yes, a little more. Put your foot out so you can lower your shoulder a little more still. Bend your knee. Yes, that's it. See how beautifully your suitcoat now fits?'

The customer had to admit the tailor was right. 'Wow. But now the leg of the pants is all twisted around.'

'That's easily fixed,' said the tailor. 'Just point your other toe westward, sir, and look over your shoulder to where I am holding up the hand mirror.. See? Doesn't that fit beautifully?'

'Yes,' the customer said doubtfully, 'but-'

'Now would sir like to wear his brilliant new suit or shall we wrap it?'

The customer was too intimidated to argue. He walked out into the street in his new suit, his arm crooked as if he were drinking tea, his other shoulder well down over a bent knee with his foot out to the side, his other foot pointing westwards, his head twisted back between hunched shoulders as if complaining to God about a cruel fate.

Behind him he heard a boy say to his father. 'Oh, Daddy, look at the poor twisted cripple.'

'Hush,' the father said. 'Be grateful the poor man found such a brilliant tailor.'

From http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...dre%20Jute.htm

****

Andre Jute
Euphonics

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:13:30 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?

1mm of my desired posture on the bike, of course. What else?

My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.

I could ask the same kind of cantankerous question as your question:
What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
say, "What does it even mean that your fit changes? From what?" But I won't.. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what you're talking about.

If you do, you've just made my point for me. If you don't, I already have a knowledgeable source of advice, thanks all the same.

Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen,

The better baukast (a German custom bike house, more precisely semi-custom as some of them are pretty big, and there are some German full-custom makers who'll build you a custom frame from scratch) has a philosophy and a set of frames to match it, and many sets of components approved by being tested to destruction, in the case of my chosen baukast in many cases designed for them by first-class German, Dutch and Belgian component makers. First you ascertain that the philosophy of the main man at the baukast fits you, then you check that one of their bike sizes fits you, then they change components until it fits you perfectly. At my chosen baukast, for instance, they consider tall seatposts bad engineering, as do I. So they want you to sit comfortably with your feet on the pedals without adjusting the designed-in seat height more than fractionally. And so on, point for point matching my outlook/prejudices, desires. Next thing I looked for is that all their bikes are truly scaled because they ordered custom tubes from Columbus, none of those Gunnar abortions of very tall bikes with very short chain stays because that's what the manufacturer had in stock. So their bikes have long wheelbases in relation to size, and that too is good, because I like to know how a bike will handle at the limit before I buy it, and a long wheelbase is half the battle for predictable handling. Etc, etc, a lot of stuff you won't understand, or want to hear, because you find me "tedious".

what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?

I own two other bikes that serve the same purpose, from Gazelle and Trek, people with very clued-in designers and marketing departments. My Utopia is fundamentally different in almost every respect, and does a great many things better than they do. But, since you drive a Subaru, and buy your bikes over the counter, you won't understand how these many advantages, some of them objectively small to the uninitiated, can add up to permanent satisfaction. In fact, I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike. I couldn't care less about other people's opinion, but I understand those who'd rather blend with the moo-moo herd.

Andre Jute
My bike still fits me to within 1mm. In twenty years, when I'm as old and creaky as Jay, I might have to adjust it.

On 12/8/2019 6:32 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:13:30 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?

1mm of my desired posture on the bike, of course. What else?

My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.

I could ask the same kind of cantankerous question as your question:
What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
say, "What does it even mean that your fit changes? From what?" But I won't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what you're talking about.

If you do, you've just made my point for me. If you don't, I already have a knowledgeable source of advice, thanks all the same.

Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen,

The better baukast (a German custom bike house, more precisely semi-custom as some of them are pretty big, and there are some German full-custom makers who'll build you a custom frame from scratch) has a philosophy and a set of frames to match it, and many sets of components approved by being tested to destruction, in the case of my chosen baukast in many cases designed for them by first-class German, Dutch and Belgian component makers. First you ascertain that the philosophy of the main man at the baukast fits you, then you check that one of their bike sizes fits you, then they change components until it fits you perfectly. At my chosen baukast, for instance, they consider tall seatposts bad engineering, as do I. So they want you to sit comfortably with your feet on the pedals without adjusting the designed-in seat height more than fractionally. And so on, point for point matching my outlook/prejudices, desires. Next thing I looked for is that all their bikes are truly scaled bec
ause they ordered custom tubes from Columbus, none of those Gunnar abortions of very tall bikes with very short chain stays because that's what the manufacturer had in stock. So their bikes have long wheelbases in relation to size, and that too is good, because I like to know how a bike will handle at the limit before I buy it, and a long wheelbase is half the battle for predictable handling. Etc, etc, a lot of stuff you won't understand, or want to hear, because you find me "tedious".

what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?

I own two other bikes that serve the same purpose, from Gazelle and Trek, people with very clued-in designers and marketing departments. My Utopia is fundamentally different in almost every respect, and does a great many things better than they do. But, since you drive a Subaru, and buy your bikes over the counter, you won't understand how these many advantages, some of them objectively small to the uninitiated, can add up to permanent satisfaction. In fact, I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike. I couldn't care less about other people's opinion, but I understand those who'd rather blend with the moo-moo herd.

Andre Jute
My bike still fits me to within 1mm. In twenty years, when I'm as old and creaky as Jay, I might have to adjust it.


'Gunar abortion' WTF?

Gunnar _race bikes_ have short chainstays, suitable to race
bike riders/customers.

Of their 16 models, that's four (2 single speed, two
geared). The long wheelbase styles (most of the line) are
longer.

http://gunnarbikes.com


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 4:32:22 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:13:30 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?

1mm of my desired posture on the bike, of course. What else?

My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.

I could ask the same kind of cantankerous question as your question:
What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?
say, "What does it even mean that your fit changes? From what?" But I won't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what you're talking about.

If you do, you've just made my point for me. If you don't, I already have a knowledgeable source of advice, thanks all the same.

Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen,

The better baukast (a German custom bike house, more precisely semi-custom as some of them are pretty big, and there are some German full-custom makers who'll build you a custom frame from scratch) has a philosophy and a set of frames to match it, and many sets of components approved by being tested to destruction, in the case of my chosen baukast in many cases designed for them by first-class German, Dutch and Belgian component makers. First you ascertain that the philosophy of the main man at the baukast fits you, then you check that one of their bike sizes fits you, then they change components until it fits you perfectly. At my chosen baukast, for instance, they consider tall seatposts bad engineering, as do I. So they want you to sit comfortably with your feet on the pedals without adjusting the designed-in seat height more than fractionally. And so on, point for point matching my outlook/prejudices, desires. Next thing I looked for is that all their bikes are truly scaled because they ordered custom tubes from Columbus, none of those Gunnar abortions of very tall bikes with very short chain stays because that's what the manufacturer had in stock. So their bikes have long wheelbases in relation to size, and that too is good, because I like to know how a bike will handle at the limit before I buy it, and a long wheelbase is half the battle for predictable handling. Etc, etc, a lot of stuff you won't understand, or want to hear, because you find me "tedious".

what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?

I own two other bikes that serve the same purpose, from Gazelle and Trek, people with very clued-in designers and marketing departments. My Utopia is fundamentally different in almost every respect, and does a great many things better than they do. But, since you drive a Subaru, and buy your bikes over the counter, you won't understand how these many advantages, some of them objectively small to the uninitiated, can add up to permanent satisfaction. In fact, I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike. I couldn't care less about other people's opinion, but I understand those who'd rather blend with the moo-moo herd.

Your Utopia is a Byzantine mixte with a f****** motor. Why would you even need a custom fit? https://i.pinimg.com/originals/43/8b...9987ece1ca.jpg

My wife had a comfort bike like that and whenever I wanted to use it to go to the store, I would just raise the saddle. It had a QR post clamp. Very convenient.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

Andre Jute
My bikes all fit me to within 1mm. Why shouldn't they?

Tommassini actual built a totally custom frame for my friend but it was only mm different from a stock version. But it was one of the custom old-style steel bikes.

His wife was measured and hers was exactly the stock size.