A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

A real reason for gravel bikes?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old February 21st 20, 12:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default A real reason for gravel bikes?

On Thursday, February 20, 2020 at 5:30:17 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 2/20/2020 12:16 AM, John B. wrote:

snip

Wasn't California a state that instituted the "3 strikes and you're
out" thing where habitual criminals were kept in jail?
--
cheers,

John B.


Like many laws, it was a poorly thought out, feel-good law. It created
tremendous prison over-crowding, keeping many people in prison that were
no threat. One person received a life sentence for his third
strike--stealing a piece of pizza from a group at a birthday party in a
pizza place, even though he asked one of the kids for a slice and the
kid nodded yes. The kid said that he was scared and prosecutors said
that it was "robbery by intimidation."

The 3 strikes law resulted in another poorly thought out law, Prop 47,
that allowed habitual criminals to not go to prison in an effort to
comply with federal mandates to reduce prison over-crowding. It has led
to a wave of retail theft and car break-ins
https://www.independent.org/news/news_detail.asp?newsID=1247.

Go to a department store or a drug store these days and it's almost like
back in the olden days where a shop employee has to get you the
merchandise. And we're not just talking about liquor or smart phones,
we're talking about Tide detergent, bicycle accessories, ibuprofen,
sometimes even candy. It's locked up
https://sacobserver.com/2018/01/shoplifting-is-to-blame-for-locked-up-items-not-walmart/.


Well, they went from a jackass "three strikes you're out" to "who cares what you do except your victims". When they were showing that guy on TV being taken into the police station and laughing the entire time and saying "THANKS DEMOCRATS" and he had been arrested for 157 felonies someone should have gotten the idea that no bail might have been a bad idea.

I thought it was BS that they would arrest someone for minor felonies such as possession of an amount large enough to qualify as being a dealer and then giving him life in prison.

But simply looking the other way doesn't work either as a four-fold increase in murders shows. They said that when they stop someone for jumping the BART fare gates that over 90% of them have felony warrants out for them.

Jay is no doubt against all of this since no one needs a lawyer anymore. Just be hauled into the jail and walk right out again.
Ads
  #62  
Old February 21st 20, 12:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default A real reason for gravel bikes?

On 2/20/2020 5:03 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 16:15:03 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 14:59:47 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 1:12:52 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:56:38 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 15:23:30 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:41:10 PM UTC-6, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 1:22:44 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 February 2020 16:12:43 UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:36:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel” if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.


I can't complain about the condition of our country roads. They
are well maintained compared to Germany and Belgium were I ride
also frequently especially Germany. The roads in Belgium are
awful. There are no borders anymore but as soon as you cross the
invisible Belgium border you now immidiately you are in Belgium.
Your fillings are rattling out of your teeth.

Lou
--
- Frank Krygowski

That's exactly what Duane says about riding from Quebec to Ontario Canada.

Cheers

This is interesting. Why do you suppose they went from very good
roads during the Presidency of Eisenhower to the slow degradation of roads since?


????? Eisenhower was in office about 70 years ago. He started the
national Interstate road system. Based upon the road network he
observed in Germany during World War 2. In the 1950s there was not
two cars for every single human being. There was not as many roads.
The car culture had not become the meaning of the USA yet. There
were also less people. Now there are 330 million people in the USA.
People who consume stuff. People who buy stuff. People who need
stores to sell them stuff. Stores that need roads to haul all the
stuff to the store. Stores that need heavy semi trucks to haul the
stuff. Heavy semis that destroy the roads. 70 years of heavy trucks
on roads destroy the roads and eventually they need to be replaced.
How many cars built during Eisenhower's reign do you see being driven
today? None. They all wore out. And the roads have to be replaced too.

But yet roads built in the days of the Roman empire are still in use
today albeit with another layer of surfacing although I believe that
there are sections of the Via Appia and possibly the Via Aurelia
where the original paving is still used.

To be a bit pedantic a semi truck don't necessarily destroy roads, it
is the tire loading is the determining factor and it is quite possible
for a small, heavily loaded, truck to have a higher tire loading and
thus do more damage to a road than a large truck, with more wheels and
wider tires and thus having a lighter tire loading.,

I once did a study of wheel loading and potential road damage for the
Indonesian National Highway Department demonstrating that 50 ton
Oilfield trucks actually caused less damage to the highway than the
small, grossly overloaded, 3 ton trucks commonly used by small
freight companies.
--
cheers,

John B.

True, it is the pounds per square inch that is the decider. But big
trucks, or the small freight trucks you describe, or gravel dump
trucks, have the highest pounds per square inch. And do all the damage
to roads. In the USA 80,000 pounds is the maximum weight of an 18
wheel semi truck. That is 4,444 pounds per tire. A Toyota Camry
weighs 3500 pounds. Or 875 pounds per tire. For these two vehicles to
be equal for weight per square inch on the road, the semi tire would
have to be 5 TIMES more surface area touching the road. I have looked
at tires on semi trucks and Camrys. The semi tire does not have 5
times more surface area. Semi tire has about 2 or 3 times more surface area.

The surface pressure of semi's is so high that in some places it causes
the road to melt and run under the tires. That is why concrete should be
used on commercial roads.

Whatever are you smoking. The pressure exerted by each large truck's
tire (11R24.5 for example) is in the neighborhood of 40 psi.
--
cheers,

John B.



It would seem to me that to a first approximation, the road loading of a
tire would be in the vicinity of the inflation pressure of the tire. My
subcompact runs 32 psi, my minivan runs 35 psi, and large truck tires tend
to be inflated around 110 psi.


Yes tire pressure is related to vehicle weight but the amount(area) of
tire actually in contact with the ground is the final determining
factor.
--
cheers,

John B.


Uh, for force per area both are equally important.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #63  
Old February 21st 20, 01:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default A real reason for gravel bikes?

On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 08:10:48 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/19/2020 11:40 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:44:06 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 7:27:28 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:29:23 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:47:53 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel” if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

And then there are bridges. I go over this one to see my brother. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVSTcKLJ5gw From above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmnC05Ou7w It's scary narrow, and its scheduled to be replaced as soon as the bridge toll piggy bank is full.

Looks like a normal two lane bridge built for trucks and automobiles,
one lane each way. What more could one want?

Well, I could want lanes that were not scaled for Model Ts and could do without a metal deck that steers the car (particularly with the usual high wind), and I could want a bridge that allows bicycles, but apart from that, nothing.

-- Jay Beattie.


But the bridge, the second oldest road bridge across the Columbia
between Washington and Oregon, was built by the Oregon-Washington
Bridge Company and opened on December 9, 1924, when the Model T sold
for 265 gold backed dollars.

Of course, you could advocate tearing it down and building a new
bridge... didn't San Francisco do something like that :-?
--
cheers,

John B.


Perfectly normal:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKCN1SS1DE


Hate to have to tell a guy named "Muzi" but:
The Pons Fabricius, in Rome, built in 62 B.C to replace a bridge that
had fallen down.
The Ponte Vecchio, in Florance, built in 1345 to replace a wooden
bridge.
The Ponte Di Rialto, built in 1591 to replace a wooden bridge, in
Venice.

Then, of course, there is the Arkadiko Bridge. the oldest surviving
arch bridge still in use. Believed to have been built during the Greek
Bronze Age, around 1300 BC. But of course that is in Greece :-(

All still in use :-)


--
cheers,

John B.

  #64  
Old February 21st 20, 01:55 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default A real reason for gravel bikes?

On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 05:30:10 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 2/20/2020 12:16 AM, John B. wrote:

snip

Wasn't California a state that instituted the "3 strikes and you're
out" thing where habitual criminals were kept in jail?
--
cheers,

John B.


Like many laws, it was a poorly thought out, feel-good law. It created
tremendous prison over-crowding, keeping many people in prison that were
no threat. One person received a life sentence for his third
strike--stealing a piece of pizza from a group at a birthday party in a
pizza place, even though he asked one of the kids for a slice and the
kid nodded yes. The kid said that he was scared and prosecutors said
that it was "robbery by intimidation."

The 3 strikes law resulted in another poorly thought out law, Prop 47,
that allowed habitual criminals to not go to prison in an effort to
comply with federal mandates to reduce prison over-crowding. It has led
to a wave of retail theft and car break-ins
https://www.independent.org/news/news_detail.asp?newsID=1247.

Go to a department store or a drug store these days and it's almost like
back in the olden days where a shop employee has to get you the
merchandise. And we're not just talking about liquor or smart phones,
we're talking about Tide detergent, bicycle accessories, ibuprofen,
sometimes even candy. It's locked up
https://sacobserver.com/2018/01/shoplifting-is-to-blame-for-locked-up-items-not-walmart/.


England, in the 1800's, and I'm sure other countries, have tried to
solve the problems of habitual criminals. England, at least partially
solved the problem, by shipping the miscreants off to Australia, but
what can be done today?

One might try branding a big "T" or "R" on the evildoer's cheek or
forehead but that might start a new fashion trend like the ripped
jeans and the four day growth of beard,

Or perhaps the "Prison Farm" solution as was used in Mississippi,
among other states. That could, if managed properly, turn out to be a
profit making establishment.

Or is working now deemed to be a cruel and unusual punishment?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #65  
Old February 21st 20, 02:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default A real reason for gravel bikes?

On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 17:56:47 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/20/2020 5:03 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 16:15:03 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 14:59:47 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 1:12:52 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 6:56:38 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 15:23:30 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:41:10 PM UTC-6, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 1:22:44 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 February 2020 16:12:43 UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 8:36:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel” if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.


I can't complain about the condition of our country roads. They
are well maintained compared to Germany and Belgium were I ride
also frequently especially Germany. The roads in Belgium are
awful. There are no borders anymore but as soon as you cross the
invisible Belgium border you now immidiately you are in Belgium.
Your fillings are rattling out of your teeth.

Lou
--
- Frank Krygowski

That's exactly what Duane says about riding from Quebec to Ontario Canada.

Cheers

This is interesting. Why do you suppose they went from very good
roads during the Presidency of Eisenhower to the slow degradation of roads since?


????? Eisenhower was in office about 70 years ago. He started the
national Interstate road system. Based upon the road network he
observed in Germany during World War 2. In the 1950s there was not
two cars for every single human being. There was not as many roads.
The car culture had not become the meaning of the USA yet. There
were also less people. Now there are 330 million people in the USA.
People who consume stuff. People who buy stuff. People who need
stores to sell them stuff. Stores that need roads to haul all the
stuff to the store. Stores that need heavy semi trucks to haul the
stuff. Heavy semis that destroy the roads. 70 years of heavy trucks
on roads destroy the roads and eventually they need to be replaced.
How many cars built during Eisenhower's reign do you see being driven
today? None. They all wore out. And the roads have to be replaced too.

But yet roads built in the days of the Roman empire are still in use
today albeit with another layer of surfacing although I believe that
there are sections of the Via Appia and possibly the Via Aurelia
where the original paving is still used.

To be a bit pedantic a semi truck don't necessarily destroy roads, it
is the tire loading is the determining factor and it is quite possible
for a small, heavily loaded, truck to have a higher tire loading and
thus do more damage to a road than a large truck, with more wheels and
wider tires and thus having a lighter tire loading.,

I once did a study of wheel loading and potential road damage for the
Indonesian National Highway Department demonstrating that 50 ton
Oilfield trucks actually caused less damage to the highway than the
small, grossly overloaded, 3 ton trucks commonly used by small
freight companies.
--
cheers,

John B.

True, it is the pounds per square inch that is the decider. But big
trucks, or the small freight trucks you describe, or gravel dump
trucks, have the highest pounds per square inch. And do all the damage
to roads. In the USA 80,000 pounds is the maximum weight of an 18
wheel semi truck. That is 4,444 pounds per tire. A Toyota Camry
weighs 3500 pounds. Or 875 pounds per tire. For these two vehicles to
be equal for weight per square inch on the road, the semi tire would
have to be 5 TIMES more surface area touching the road. I have looked
at tires on semi trucks and Camrys. The semi tire does not have 5
times more surface area. Semi tire has about 2 or 3 times more surface area.

The surface pressure of semi's is so high that in some places it causes
the road to melt and run under the tires. That is why concrete should be
used on commercial roads.

Whatever are you smoking. The pressure exerted by each large truck's
tire (11R24.5 for example) is in the neighborhood of 40 psi.
--
cheers,

John B.



It would seem to me that to a first approximation, the road loading of a
tire would be in the vicinity of the inflation pressure of the tire. My
subcompact runs 32 psi, my minivan runs 35 psi, and large truck tires tend
to be inflated around 110 psi.


Yes tire pressure is related to vehicle weight but the amount(area) of
tire actually in contact with the ground is the final determining
factor.
--
cheers,

John B.


Uh, for force per area both are equally important.


Well, yes :-) Hard to get the proper contact area without the proper
tire pressure :-)

--
cheers,

John B.

  #66  
Old February 21st 20, 03:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default A real reason for gravel bikes?

On 2/20/2020 6:27 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 08:10:48 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/19/2020 11:40 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:44:06 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 7:27:28 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:29:23 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:47:53 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel” if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

And then there are bridges. I go over this one to see my brother. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVSTcKLJ5gw From above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmnC05Ou7w It's scary narrow, and its scheduled to be replaced as soon as the bridge toll piggy bank is full.

Looks like a normal two lane bridge built for trucks and automobiles,
one lane each way. What more could one want?

Well, I could want lanes that were not scaled for Model Ts and could do without a metal deck that steers the car (particularly with the usual high wind), and I could want a bridge that allows bicycles, but apart from that, nothing.

-- Jay Beattie.

But the bridge, the second oldest road bridge across the Columbia
between Washington and Oregon, was built by the Oregon-Washington
Bridge Company and opened on December 9, 1924, when the Model T sold
for 265 gold backed dollars.

Of course, you could advocate tearing it down and building a new
bridge... didn't San Francisco do something like that :-?
--
cheers,

John B.


Perfectly normal:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKCN1SS1DE


Hate to have to tell a guy named "Muzi" but:
The Pons Fabricius, in Rome, built in 62 B.C to replace a bridge that
had fallen down.
The Ponte Vecchio, in Florance, built in 1345 to replace a wooden
bridge.
The Ponte Di Rialto, built in 1591 to replace a wooden bridge, in
Venice.

Then, of course, there is the Arkadiko Bridge. the oldest surviving
arch bridge still in use. Believed to have been built during the Greek
Bronze Age, around 1300 BC. But of course that is in Greece :-(

All still in use :-)



Just like everything humans do, there are successes (as you
noted, with a tip of the hat to my ancestors) and there are
failures:

https://timeline.com/the-deadliest-b...p-ca5404c4dffa

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #67  
Old February 21st 20, 03:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default A real reason for gravel bikes?

On 2/20/2020 6:55 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 05:30:10 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 2/20/2020 12:16 AM, John B. wrote:

snip

Wasn't California a state that instituted the "3 strikes and you're
out" thing where habitual criminals were kept in jail?
--
cheers,

John B.


Like many laws, it was a poorly thought out, feel-good law. It created
tremendous prison over-crowding, keeping many people in prison that were
no threat. One person received a life sentence for his third
strike--stealing a piece of pizza from a group at a birthday party in a
pizza place, even though he asked one of the kids for a slice and the
kid nodded yes. The kid said that he was scared and prosecutors said
that it was "robbery by intimidation."

The 3 strikes law resulted in another poorly thought out law, Prop 47,
that allowed habitual criminals to not go to prison in an effort to
comply with federal mandates to reduce prison over-crowding. It has led
to a wave of retail theft and car break-ins
https://www.independent.org/news/news_detail.asp?newsID=1247.

Go to a department store or a drug store these days and it's almost like
back in the olden days where a shop employee has to get you the
merchandise. And we're not just talking about liquor or smart phones,
we're talking about Tide detergent, bicycle accessories, ibuprofen,
sometimes even candy. It's locked up
https://sacobserver.com/2018/01/shoplifting-is-to-blame-for-locked-up-items-not-walmart/.


England, in the 1800's, and I'm sure other countries, have tried to
solve the problems of habitual criminals. England, at least partially
solved the problem, by shipping the miscreants off to Australia, but
what can be done today?

One might try branding a big "T" or "R" on the evildoer's cheek or
forehead but that might start a new fashion trend like the ripped
jeans and the four day growth of beard,

Or perhaps the "Prison Farm" solution as was used in Mississippi,
among other states. That could, if managed properly, turn out to be a
profit making establishment.

Or is working now deemed to be a cruel and unusual punishment?



The precedent is a branded face with an "F" for "fugitus",
which was effective because giving food or shelter to a
branded fugitive was a capital crime. We're not ready for
that here. Yet.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #68  
Old February 21st 20, 03:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 853
Default A real reason for gravel bikes?

AMuzi wrote:
On 2/20/2020 6:27 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 08:10:48 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/19/2020 11:40 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:44:06 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 7:27:28 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:29:23 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, February 18, 2020 at 3:47:53 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2020 5:08 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:36:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

“In 10 years, we’re going to start turning roads back into gravel” if
nothing changes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/b...sin-roads.html

As I've mentioned, Ohio has 88 counties. Some, like mine, have many more
miles of county roads than do others. But the state's funds distributed
for county road maintenence gives each county 1/88 of the total instead
of giving on a per-mile basis. I frequently see the effects when riding
from one county into another.

Are roads in the U.S. really as bad as described here? I grew up in
New England, went to school in Florida, lived in a number of states
including Ohio, Texas, Louisiana, California and Maine, drove coast to
coast a couple of times and while I wouldn't say that all the roads
were as smooth as a billiard table I would say that they were pretty
damned good.

Granted I left the U.S. in 1972 but have U.S. roads deteriorate from
"pretty damned good" to the wilderness of chuck holes that I see
described here?
--
cheers,

John B.


I'm also of the glass-half-full school on that. Are there
roads in poor repair? Sure. But there are long term
replacement schedules which can be reviewed at your State
DOT web site.

Example- WI Hwy 19 from Springfield Corners to Mazomanie, a
road I use weekly, was about 1/4 literally AWOL. With an
oncoming milk truck, the best technique was to pull over
where possible and stop because two vehicles couldn't pass
in large sections. That was rebuilt in 2018 and is now an
absolute joy.

#2- WI Hwy 60 in front of our building is being replaced
this year. Sure it needs help, but I'm much less excited
because this will involve an assessment and months of dust.

#3- The loudest bitching about the Governor and road
maintenance usually centers on condition of city streets and
township roads which are not his problem. I don't much care
for The Current Occupant in the statehouse either but let's
hang him for his own sins.

And then there are bridges. I go over this one to see my brother.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVSTcKLJ5gw From above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmnC05Ou7w It's scary narrow, and
its scheduled to be replaced as soon as the bridge toll piggy bank is full.

Looks like a normal two lane bridge built for trucks and automobiles,
one lane each way. What more could one want?

Well, I could want lanes that were not scaled for Model Ts and could
do without a metal deck that steers the car (particularly with the
usual high wind), and I could want a bridge that allows bicycles, but
apart from that, nothing.

-- Jay Beattie.

But the bridge, the second oldest road bridge across the Columbia
between Washington and Oregon, was built by the Oregon-Washington
Bridge Company and opened on December 9, 1924, when the Model T sold
for 265 gold backed dollars.

Of course, you could advocate tearing it down and building a new
bridge... didn't San Francisco do something like that :-?
--
cheers,

John B.


Perfectly normal:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKCN1SS1DE


Hate to have to tell a guy named "Muzi" but:
The Pons Fabricius, in Rome, built in 62 B.C to replace a bridge that
had fallen down.
The Ponte Vecchio, in Florance, built in 1345 to replace a wooden
bridge.
The Ponte Di Rialto, built in 1591 to replace a wooden bridge, in
Venice.

Then, of course, there is the Arkadiko Bridge. the oldest surviving
arch bridge still in use. Believed to have been built during the Greek
Bronze Age, around 1300 BC. But of course that is in Greece :-(

All still in use :-)



Just like everything humans do, there are successes (as you
noted, with a tip of the hat to my ancestors) and there are
failures:

https://timeline.com/the-deadliest-b...p-ca5404c4dffa


Hmmm... A chain failure precipitated by a crack in a chain link (just to
bring this back to bike tech talk).

  #69  
Old February 21st 20, 04:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default A real reason for gravel bikes?

On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 20:16:32 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/20/2020 6:55 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 05:30:10 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 2/20/2020 12:16 AM, John B. wrote:

snip

Wasn't California a state that instituted the "3 strikes and you're
out" thing where habitual criminals were kept in jail?
--
cheers,

John B.

Like many laws, it was a poorly thought out, feel-good law. It created
tremendous prison over-crowding, keeping many people in prison that were
no threat. One person received a life sentence for his third
strike--stealing a piece of pizza from a group at a birthday party in a
pizza place, even though he asked one of the kids for a slice and the
kid nodded yes. The kid said that he was scared and prosecutors said
that it was "robbery by intimidation."

The 3 strikes law resulted in another poorly thought out law, Prop 47,
that allowed habitual criminals to not go to prison in an effort to
comply with federal mandates to reduce prison over-crowding. It has led
to a wave of retail theft and car break-ins
https://www.independent.org/news/news_detail.asp?newsID=1247.

Go to a department store or a drug store these days and it's almost like
back in the olden days where a shop employee has to get you the
merchandise. And we're not just talking about liquor or smart phones,
we're talking about Tide detergent, bicycle accessories, ibuprofen,
sometimes even candy. It's locked up
https://sacobserver.com/2018/01/shoplifting-is-to-blame-for-locked-up-items-not-walmart/.


England, in the 1800's, and I'm sure other countries, have tried to
solve the problems of habitual criminals. England, at least partially
solved the problem, by shipping the miscreants off to Australia, but
what can be done today?

One might try branding a big "T" or "R" on the evildoer's cheek or
forehead but that might start a new fashion trend like the ripped
jeans and the four day growth of beard,

Or perhaps the "Prison Farm" solution as was used in Mississippi,
among other states. That could, if managed properly, turn out to be a
profit making establishment.

Or is working now deemed to be a cruel and unusual punishment?



The precedent is a branded face with an "F" for "fugitus",
which was effective because giving food or shelter to a
branded fugitive was a capital crime. We're not ready for
that here. Yet.


While of course there are exceptions I do read that a rather large
percentage of those imprisoned commit further felonies after being
released, as many as 70% in some instances. It would seem that a
certain percent of the population are criminally inclined and
unfortunately this percentage appears to be increasing as in 1976
incarcerated amounted to some 232/100,000 in the U.S. while in 2018 it
was 655/100,000, an increase of 280% in 42 years (unless I got my
numbers wrong). Scary!
--
cheers,

John B.

  #70  
Old February 21st 20, 04:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default A real reason for gravel bikes?

On 2/20/2020 9:16 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 20:16:32 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 2/20/2020 6:55 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 05:30:10 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 2/20/2020 12:16 AM, John B. wrote:

snip

Wasn't California a state that instituted the "3 strikes and you're
out" thing where habitual criminals were kept in jail?
--
cheers,

John B.

Like many laws, it was a poorly thought out, feel-good law. It created
tremendous prison over-crowding, keeping many people in prison that were
no threat. One person received a life sentence for his third
strike--stealing a piece of pizza from a group at a birthday party in a
pizza place, even though he asked one of the kids for a slice and the
kid nodded yes. The kid said that he was scared and prosecutors said
that it was "robbery by intimidation."

The 3 strikes law resulted in another poorly thought out law, Prop 47,
that allowed habitual criminals to not go to prison in an effort to
comply with federal mandates to reduce prison over-crowding. It has led
to a wave of retail theft and car break-ins
https://www.independent.org/news/news_detail.asp?newsID=1247.

Go to a department store or a drug store these days and it's almost like
back in the olden days where a shop employee has to get you the
merchandise. And we're not just talking about liquor or smart phones,
we're talking about Tide detergent, bicycle accessories, ibuprofen,
sometimes even candy. It's locked up
https://sacobserver.com/2018/01/shoplifting-is-to-blame-for-locked-up-items-not-walmart/.

England, in the 1800's, and I'm sure other countries, have tried to
solve the problems of habitual criminals. England, at least partially
solved the problem, by shipping the miscreants off to Australia, but
what can be done today?

One might try branding a big "T" or "R" on the evildoer's cheek or
forehead but that might start a new fashion trend like the ripped
jeans and the four day growth of beard,

Or perhaps the "Prison Farm" solution as was used in Mississippi,
among other states. That could, if managed properly, turn out to be a
profit making establishment.

Or is working now deemed to be a cruel and unusual punishment?



The precedent is a branded face with an "F" for "fugitus",
which was effective because giving food or shelter to a
branded fugitive was a capital crime. We're not ready for
that here. Yet.


While of course there are exceptions I do read that a rather large
percentage of those imprisoned commit further felonies after being
released, as many as 70% in some instances. It would seem that a
certain percent of the population are criminally inclined and
unfortunately this percentage appears to be increasing as in 1976
incarcerated amounted to some 232/100,000 in the U.S. while in 2018 it
was 655/100,000, an increase of 280% in 42 years (unless I got my
numbers wrong). Scary!
--
cheers,

John B.


Many aspects of our culture have changed over that time, not
the least being the demise of casual (cash) labor and
draconian barriers to entry (minimum wage, reporting, ID
cards, endless capricious liability resulting in 'background
checks' and such) into labor markets. This is pernicious as
regards young and unskilled since no 'first job' often means
no job whatsoever. But it's fatal to the formerly incarcerated.

When I was young, one might easily travel the country,
always confident of finding a day or two of work everywhere
and anywhere (As I did. Everywhere.) . This is no longer
true, to the greater loss of the nation's wealth and
productivity, no more painfully felt than at the bottom of
society, those who suffer most.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The depressing real reason police have stopped cracking down onaggressive morons on bikes MrCheerful UK 11 March 15th 17 10:34 AM
The real reason Tyler was on DHEA? bar Racing 12 April 26th 10 09:50 PM
The real reason Hoste lost Kurgan Gringioni Racing 24 April 11th 07 01:07 AM
Why do some walk their bikes across gravel? Mike Reed Techniques 80 June 12th 06 02:20 PM
The REAL Reason for license fee increases crit pro Racing 0 November 10th 04 09:31 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.