Creeping brake pad drag

On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:42:56 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/21/2019 8:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 5:22:21 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/20/2019 9:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 11:07:59 AM UTC-8, Andrew Chaplin wrote:
I have been riding a gravel bike (Kona Rove NRB DL https://www.konaworld.com/rove_nrb_dl.cfm) for a year now. It has developed a tendency to drag the pads of the front brakes against the disc. I recently had the pads and rotor, front and rear, replaced (about 5,000 Km of use). As I ride, a noise comes from the front brake that suggests that the pads are touching the rotor, and it increases in volume until I "blip" the lever, which makes it go away for maybe another Km or so--or less.

Has anyone encountered this before? if yes, how did you solve it?

Yikes, you must do a lot of braking. 3K miles for a rotor doesn't seem like much.

Anyway, you may just need to reset your pistons. https://www.epicbleedsolutions.com/r...liper-pistons/ If that doesn't work, then the next thing is checking to make sure the caliper is centered. Like Andrew says, just follow the instructions for installation/alignment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk_nC9anQcM&t=13s

If that doesn't do it, check to make sure that both pistons are retracting. I have a piston that will drag occasionally, and I need to clean it. Follow this routine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQXF...&feature=youtu

I just got around to watching those.

The last procedure especially seems to be a real pain. And it's required
by mere dirt? Sheesh.

Would you be truly happy if new technology were problem free, and the tedious Jute Trollfests were all we had to read? Thank god for fussy disc brakes!

Discs are not really that bad, either, and a sticky piston is about equivalent to getting crap stuck in your brake pads -- although you can't just throw in a new piston and call it good like you can with a brake pad. And adjusting cantis is worse. I can mount, fill and align a disc caliper in the time it takes to get a canti working well with STI levers, if ever.

I like my hydraulic discs and do regret getting my latest, greatest racing bike with rim brakes -- but only because my Dura Ace front rim brake track is about gone, and it sounds terrible when I brake. Even dry braking does have a rim lathe effect, although it is much worse in the wet. That's one reason why I switched to discs for my wet weather bikes -- I got tired of replacing rims. Not being able to stop well in the rain was another reason. I am sold on discs for wet weather riding. I'm agnostic for dry weather riding -- unless I were on CF rims or end-of-life aluminum rims or wanted big fat tires. Being able to put a 28mm on racing bike is kind of fun.

I guess I avoided the problems by sort of working up from the bottom of
your list. First, I don't ride a racing bike - which is logical enough,
because I don't race. So my bike will accept up to 35mm tires, I think.
(I normally run 28mm.)

Second, I don't ride that much in the rain. I'm retired, so it's an easy
choice. But even when I was working, your rain season is our snow
season, and my policy was to not bike to work if it was raining when it
was time to leave, or if the temperature was below freezing. (I really
do admire your dedication!)

Third, I don't use STI, so setting up my cantilevers (which are what I
have on most bikes) is probably way easier for me. I think I'm pretty
good at it.

As to the idiotic "trollfests" - Yes, discussing actual bike topics is
way, way better. Among his other mental and personality problems, I
honestly think he's psychopathic and intent on killing this group.

Rather like shooting oneself in the foot. When they have killed all
the groups that they have invaded then who will they talk to?
--
cheers,

John B.

On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 2:34:55 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 7:01:26 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/22/2019 9:50 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 6:01:59 AM UTC-8, Andrew Chaplin wrote:

I took it to the bike shop where I had the brake work done. They may have
damaged the seals as, after working on it and taking it for a test ride, front
braking faded quickly and there was oil leaking.

You need a different shop!

From where is the oil leaking? You can have piston seal issues as well as other issues that are relatively easy to fix, like a leaking hose connection. Other leaks can be: (1) bad internal o-ring and leaking from the seam between the two caliper halves. This was a known problem on certain RS785s, the predecessor of your caliper. I replaced the internal o-ring seal on one caliper (and now have a bag of redundant little o-rings), and that caliper woks like a charm. (2) You can also get leaking from the fill port because the stopper screw is not seating. You just pull that out, make sure the o-ring on the screw is seated properly and that the screw-seat is clean and clear. And (3) you can have a piston seal leak, which could repair itself when the piston is pushed back in. You could even have a cracked piston. Anyway, those things are reparable, although I have never replaced a piston or seal. Youtube has videos. It's probably easier buying a new caliper, which are not horribly expensive. BTW, if you have oil on the pad, it will never work right again regardless of cleaning, sanding, etc., etc. At least that's been my experience. The pad will work marginally O.K., but I'd just buy a new set.

In general, I prefer to stay away from bicycle technologies that require
such explanations. Those include hydraulic discs. (Ten paragraph lines
of possible solutions?) Ditto for electronic shifting ("First press and
hold the button to enter the programming mode... or connect to your
computer interface using the appropriate software...") Ditto for STI,
which usually gets summarized as "You can't fix it. Just throw it away
and buy another one."

I know I'm archaic. But I like simple mechanical devices that get
diagnosed by sight and fixed with things like allen wrenches.

And I never liked working on plumbing.


--
- Frank Krygowski

If I am going to talk like this will you shoot me please because that is the moment you give up to learn and experiencing something new. I'm a mechanical engineer that started with a simple drawing board and those awful ink pens and no PC's. Then we got 2D cad, then 3D cad and then 3D cad with integrated simulation and calculation modules and databases. It got complicated everytime but is was nevertheless progress.

Lou, I like plumbing.

Lou - you are not an engineer because you didn't teach it - got it?

On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 2:24:30 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/22/2019 3:31 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, 22 November 2019 15:40:24 UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 10:01:26 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/22/2019 9:50 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 6:01:59 AM UTC-8, Andrew Chaplin wrote:

I took it to the bike shop where I had the brake work done. They may have
damaged the seals as, after working on it and taking it for a test ride, front
braking faded quickly and there was oil leaking.

You need a different shop!

From where is the oil leaking? You can have piston seal issues as well as other issues that are relatively easy to fix, like a leaking hose connection. Other leaks can be: (1) bad internal o-ring and leaking from the seam between the two caliper halves. This was a known problem on certain RS785s, the predecessor of your caliper. I replaced the internal o-ring seal on one caliper (and now have a bag of redundant little o-rings), and that caliper woks like a charm. (2) You can also get leaking from the fill port because the stopper screw is not seating. You just pull that out, make sure the o-ring on the screw is seated properly and that the screw-seat is clean and clear. And (3) you can have a piston seal leak, which could repair itself when the piston is pushed back in. You could even have a cracked piston. Anyway, those things are reparable, although I have never replaced a piston or seal. Youtube has videos. It's probably easier buying a new caliper, which are not ho
rribly expensive. BTW, if you have oil on the pad, it will never work right again regardless of cleaning, sanding, etc., etc. At least that's been my experience. The pad will work marginally O.K., but I'd just buy a new set.

In general, I prefer to stay away from bicycle technologies that require
such explanations. Those include hydraulic discs. (Ten paragraph lines
of possible solutions?) Ditto for electronic shifting ("First press and
hold the button to enter the programming mode... or connect to your
computer interface using the appropriate software...") Ditto for STI,
which usually gets summarized as "You can't fix it. Just throw it away
and buy another one."

I know I'm archaic. But I like simple mechanical devices that get
diagnosed by sight and fixed with things like allen wrenches.

And I never liked working on plumbing.

Hydraulic discs are surprisingly simple mechanical devices, but they are plumbing -- really minor plumbing. I think there is about 50ml of oil in my front brake. It's not like fixing a live water main. There is no need to adjust pad angle, straddle cable length, etc., etc. No whacking the return spring to center the brake or dealing with sticking cables (sort of a problem of the past, but if you want to reach way back to classic equipment). Nothing is as bad as a stuck or cross-threaded freewheel. The good old days weren't perfect, except in our memories.

-- Jay Beattie.

I have two old Suntour freewheels here that stick. I can put some oil in them, turn them until movement is nice and smooth and the the next day they are really stiff again. In fact one gets so stiff the next day that it won;'t turn.

Cheers


Two of Suntour's most successful products, Original Winner
and New Winner, have adjustable freewheel bearings. If you
have either of those, a solution is straightforward. Tedious
yes, but less tedious than traditional 'cover plate with
shims' freewheels.

For the classic type, the correct answer is a stack of
replacement shims, a micrometer and a big pile of free time.
The practical answer is to crenellate one of the thicker
shims with your thumbnail.

And to be clear, I was talking about mechanically stuck freewheels and trying to remove them with some notch-eating remover -- and then having to dismantle the freewheel and get it off with a pipe wrench or something. Hey, whad'ya know -- a historical reenactment on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQKG8F7NL5Q Exactly as I remember, except I didn't own a 3' F-wrench. I said "F" a lot, but didn't own the big wrench.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 2:34:55 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 7:01:26 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/22/2019 9:50 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 6:01:59 AM UTC-8, Andrew Chaplin wrote:

I took it to the bike shop where I had the brake work done. They may have
damaged the seals as, after working on it and taking it for a test ride, front
braking faded quickly and there was oil leaking.

You need a different shop!

From where is the oil leaking? You can have piston seal issues as well as other issues that are relatively easy to fix, like a leaking hose connection. Other leaks can be: (1) bad internal o-ring and leaking from the seam between the two caliper halves. This was a known problem on certain RS785s, the predecessor of your caliper. I replaced the internal o-ring seal on one caliper (and now have a bag of redundant little o-rings), and that caliper woks like a charm. (2) You can also get leaking from the fill port because the stopper screw is not seating. You just pull that out, make sure the o-ring on the screw is seated properly and that the screw-seat is clean and clear. And (3) you can have a piston seal leak, which could repair itself when the piston is pushed back in. You could even have a cracked piston. Anyway, those things are reparable, although I have never replaced a piston or seal. Youtube has videos. It's probably easier buying a new caliper, which are not horribly expensive. BTW, if you have oil on the pad, it will never work right again regardless of cleaning, sanding, etc., etc. At least that's been my experience. The pad will work marginally O.K., but I'd just buy a new set.

In general, I prefer to stay away from bicycle technologies that require
such explanations. Those include hydraulic discs. (Ten paragraph lines
of possible solutions?) Ditto for electronic shifting ("First press and
hold the button to enter the programming mode... or connect to your
computer interface using the appropriate software...") Ditto for STI,
which usually gets summarized as "You can't fix it. Just throw it away
and buy another one."

I know I'm archaic. But I like simple mechanical devices that get
diagnosed by sight and fixed with things like allen wrenches.

And I never liked working on plumbing.


--
- Frank Krygowski

If I am going to talk like this will you shoot me please because that is the moment you give up to learn and experiencing something new. I'm a mechanical engineer that started with a simple drawing board and those awful ink pens and no PC's. Then we got 2D cad, then 3D cad and then 3D cad with integrated simulation and calculation modules and databases. It got complicated everytime but is was nevertheless progress.

Lou, I like plumbing.

I did all the copper work on half of my house as part of a DIY bathroom remodel, and one of the high points of the job was the inspector telling me that the joints looked professional (I think he was just being nice -- he was a bike guy and fascinated with all the bikes in the garage). That was 11 years ago, and the pipes haven't blown-up -- yet. I've used PEX for all subsequent jobs, paying attention to maintain grounds. That stuff is a breeze -- about like cutting hydraulic brake hose.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Friday, 22 November 2019 18:00:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:42:56 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/21/2019 8:49 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 5:22:21 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/20/2019 9:02 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 11:07:59 AM UTC-8, Andrew Chaplin wrote:
I have been riding a gravel bike (Kona Rove NRB DL https://www.konaworld.com/rove_nrb_dl.cfm) for a year now. It has developed a tendency to drag the pads of the front brakes against the disc. I recently had the pads and rotor, front and rear, replaced (about 5,000 Km of use). As I ride, a noise comes from the front brake that suggests that the pads are touching the rotor, and it increases in volume until I "blip" the lever, which makes it go away for maybe another Km or so--or less.

Has anyone encountered this before? if yes, how did you solve it?

Yikes, you must do a lot of braking. 3K miles for a rotor doesn't seem like much.

Anyway, you may just need to reset your pistons. https://www.epicbleedsolutions.com/r...liper-pistons/ If that doesn't work, then the next thing is checking to make sure the caliper is centered. Like Andrew says, just follow the instructions for installation/alignment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk_nC9anQcM&t=13s

If that doesn't do it, check to make sure that both pistons are retracting. I have a piston that will drag occasionally, and I need to clean it.. Follow this routine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQXF...&feature=youtu

I just got around to watching those.

The last procedure especially seems to be a real pain. And it's required
by mere dirt? Sheesh.

Would you be truly happy if new technology were problem free, and the tedious Jute Trollfests were all we had to read? Thank god for fussy disc brakes!

Discs are not really that bad, either, and a sticky piston is about equivalent to getting crap stuck in your brake pads -- although you can't just throw in a new piston and call it good like you can with a brake pad. And adjusting cantis is worse. I can mount, fill and align a disc caliper in the time it takes to get a canti working well with STI levers, if ever.

I like my hydraulic discs and do regret getting my latest, greatest racing bike with rim brakes -- but only because my Dura Ace front rim brake track is about gone, and it sounds terrible when I brake. Even dry braking does have a rim lathe effect, although it is much worse in the wet. That's one reason why I switched to discs for my wet weather bikes -- I got tired of replacing rims. Not being able to stop well in the rain was another reason. I am sold on discs for wet weather riding. I'm agnostic for dry weather riding -- unless I were on CF rims or end-of-life aluminum rims or wanted big fat tires. Being able to put a 28mm on racing bike is kind of fun.

I guess I avoided the problems by sort of working up from the bottom of
your list. First, I don't ride a racing bike - which is logical enough,
because I don't race. So my bike will accept up to 35mm tires, I think.
(I normally run 28mm.)

Second, I don't ride that much in the rain. I'm retired, so it's an easy
choice. But even when I was working, your rain season is our snow
season, and my policy was to not bike to work if it was raining when it
was time to leave, or if the temperature was below freezing. (I really
do admire your dedication!)

Third, I don't use STI, so setting up my cantilevers (which are what I
have on most bikes) is probably way easier for me. I think I'm pretty
good at it.

As to the idiotic "trollfests" - Yes, discussing actual bike topics is
way, way better. Among his other mental and personality problems, I
honestly think he's psychopathic and intent on killing this group.

Rather like shooting oneself in the foot. When they have killed all
the groups that they have invaded then who will they talk to?
--
cheers,

John B.

If people did NOT REPLY to Trolls the Trolls would go away LONG before the group/forum dies. Some people just can not resist talking to a Troll and all that does is encourage the Troll to post even more Trollfests or Troll posts.

DON'T FEED THE TROLL! is the anti-Troll battle cry. LOL

Cheers

On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:31:24 -0800, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

I have two old Suntour freewheels here that stick. I can put some oil in
them, turn them until movement is nice and smooth and the the next day
they are really stiff again. In fact one gets so stiff the next day that
it won;'t turn.

what is your current ambient temperature?

It sounds like what ever is lubing them, has caked up or "frozen". It is
what I'd expect to happen to a freewheel that I packed with grease a
decade ago.

Is there a place you could put it out into the sun for a while.

I swapped fron oil only lube to packing with grease because it stuck
around longer than the oil. also turned the bike into a styealth bike as
the pauls didn't click audibly, so you could ride up behind someone
silently whilst pedalling.

If cold weather is the issue, you need to change your lube to a less
viscous lube. i.e move from heavy bearing gress to a lighter one.

On Friday, 22 November 2019 22:10:48 UTC-5, news18 wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:31:24 -0800, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

I have two old Suntour freewheels here that stick. I can put some oil in
them, turn them until movement is nice and smooth and the the next day
they are really stiff again. In fact one gets so stiff the next day that
it won;'t turn.

what is your current ambient temperature?

It sounds like what ever is lubing them, has caked up or "frozen". It is
what I'd expect to happen to a freewheel that I packed with grease a
decade ago.

Is there a place you could put it out into the sun for a while.

I swapped fron oil only lube to packing with grease because it stuck
around longer than the oil. also turned the bike into a styealth bike as
the pauls didn't click audibly, so you could ride up behind someone
silently whilst pedalling.

If cold weather is the issue, you need to change your lube to a less
viscous lube. i.e move from heavy bearing gress to a lighter one.

This was in the summer. I have the tool for taking apart a freewheel and someday when I feel like rebuilding it I'll take it apart and see what the problem with it is. One t hing I do know is that it's definitely not temperature related. I've oiled it here in my apartment and got it to spin freely yet next morning it's stiff to the point of not turning. Fortunately that freewheel is not on a bike.

Cheers

On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 5:34:55 PM UTC-5, wrote:

In general, I prefer to stay away from bicycle technologies that require
such explanations. Those include hydraulic discs. (Ten paragraph lines
of possible solutions?) Ditto for electronic shifting ("First press and
hold the button to enter the programming mode... or connect to your
computer interface using the appropriate software...") Ditto for STI,
which usually gets summarized as "You can't fix it. Just throw it away
and buy another one."

I know I'm archaic. But I like simple mechanical devices that get
diagnosed by sight and fixed with things like allen wrenches.

And I never liked working on plumbing.


--
- Frank Krygowski

If I am going to talk like this will you shoot me please because that is the moment you give up to learn and experiencing something new. I'm a mechanical engineer that started with a simple drawing board and those awful ink pens and no PC's. Then we got 2D cad, then 3D cad and then 3D cad with integrated simulation and calculation modules and databases. It got complicated everytime but is was nevertheless progress.

Requiring computers is different from being able to use computers.

I was and still am quite skilled as a paper draftsman. When it became available,
I learned and used 2-d computer drafting. I learned 3-d solid modeling. (Hell,
the last piece of furniture I built was designed using 3-d solid modeling.) I
learned and used Finite Element Analysis. I can do that sort of stuff.

But I don't want equipment on my bike that requires interfacing to a computer to
adjust or fix. To me, that's the opposite of "appropriate technology." I have
done plumbing and can still do plumbing, but I don't like it and I don't want
plumbing on my bike. And so on. I think bikes should be simple. YMMV.

- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 21:49:42 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 5:34:55 PM UTC-5, wrote:

In general, I prefer to stay away from bicycle technologies that require
such explanations. Those include hydraulic discs. (Ten paragraph lines
of possible solutions?) Ditto for electronic shifting ("First press and
hold the button to enter the programming mode... or connect to your
computer interface using the appropriate software...") Ditto for STI,
which usually gets summarized as "You can't fix it. Just throw it away
and buy another one."

I know I'm archaic. But I like simple mechanical devices that get
diagnosed by sight and fixed with things like allen wrenches.

And I never liked working on plumbing.


--
- Frank Krygowski

If I am going to talk like this will you shoot me please because that is the moment you give up to learn and experiencing something new. I'm a mechanical engineer that started with a simple drawing board and those awful ink pens and no PC's. Then we got 2D cad, then 3D cad and then 3D cad with integrated simulation and calculation modules and databases. It got complicated everytime but is was nevertheless progress.

Requiring computers is different from being able to use computers.

I was and still am quite skilled as a paper draftsman. When it became available,
I learned and used 2-d computer drafting. I learned 3-d solid modeling. (Hell,
the last piece of furniture I built was designed using 3-d solid modeling.) I
learned and used Finite Element Analysis. I can do that sort of stuff.

But I don't want equipment on my bike that requires interfacing to a computer to
adjust or fix. To me, that's the opposite of "appropriate technology." I have
done plumbing and can still do plumbing, but I don't like it and I don't want
plumbing on my bike. And so on. I think bikes should be simple. YMMV.

- Frank Krygowski

Well, unless, of course, the computerized equipment made the bike
lighter. Or faster. Or climbed hills quicker :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 6:49:45 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 5:34:55 PM UTC-5, wrote:

In general, I prefer to stay away from bicycle technologies that require
such explanations. Those include hydraulic discs. (Ten paragraph lines
of possible solutions?) Ditto for electronic shifting ("First press and
hold the button to enter the programming mode... or connect to your
computer interface using the appropriate software...") Ditto for STI,
which usually gets summarized as "You can't fix it. Just throw it away
and buy another one."

I know I'm archaic. But I like simple mechanical devices that get
diagnosed by sight and fixed with things like allen wrenches.

And I never liked working on plumbing.


--
- Frank Krygowski

If I am going to talk like this will you shoot me please because that is the moment you give up to learn and experiencing something new. I'm a mechanical engineer that started with a simple drawing board and those awful ink pens and no PC's. Then we got 2D cad, then 3D cad and then 3D cad with integrated simulation and calculation modules and databases. It got complicated everytime but is was nevertheless progress.

Requiring computers is different from being able to use computers.

I was and still am quite skilled as a paper draftsman. When it became available,
I learned and used 2-d computer drafting. I learned 3-d solid modeling. (Hell,
the last piece of furniture I built was designed using 3-d solid modeling..) I
learned and used Finite Element Analysis. I can do that sort of stuff.

But I don't want equipment on my bike that requires interfacing to a computer to
adjust or fix. To me, that's the opposite of "appropriate technology." I have
done plumbing and can still do plumbing, but I don't like it and I don't want
plumbing on my bike. And so on. I think bikes should be simple. YMMV.

- Frank Krygowski

What makes you believe that electronic shifting needs interfacing to computer to adjust or fix? That is not true and it is one of your misconceptions that hold you back from looking at it with an open mind. You just push a button instead of turning on a adjusting barrel. What is the difference? For most people this is more intuitive. In my kind of work a mechatronic approach leads in most cases to the best design/solution for a problem, so a combination of mechanics, electronics and software. In my opinion shifting on a bicycle is an example of a problem that will benifit from a mechatronic approach. The weak point of the current pure mechanical solution are the cables and the complicated mechanical components in the shifter in the environment were they are used. Shifting by wire solves the issue of the cables and make the internals of the shifter immensely simple. The electronics are simple for today standards and the same apply for the firmware. In the beginning you have to have vision and see the potential of such a system: a low maintenance, reliable, easy to setup and simpler system. As a benifit it will also be lighter. As you repeately showed you only see the potential problems which after a while don't exist anymore.
If you wonder how your books are printed today look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psm5e0lXFHw

on a machine I helped to develop. I think Amazon has 5 of these engines to print your books on demand overnight.

have a nice weekend,

Lou