Creeping brake pad drag

On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 16:30:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Saturday, 23 November 2019 18:43:26 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:58:10 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 3:01:51 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 9:37:21 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
In my view, putting immense complexity into a sealed black box
does not make a system "simple."

From a user standpoint, Di2 is very simple -- more simple than cables. No tension adjustment or lubrication, and no sticking after riding in muck. You have to charge it now and then -- and you can get fussy with programming (on bike, no computer necessary for certain settings). Electronic shifting is not an imperative, and it's expensive, but its a reasonable choice.

Well, sure, everything is a reasonable choice for someone in some situations.

But "no tension adjustment or lubrication"? I can't remember the last time I
did a so-called tension adjustment on anything but the folding bike; and for
whatever reason, that one seemed to settle down early this year. I think all
my shift cables are lined with plastic, but for whatever reason, I don't ever
seem to have to lubricate them. Well, except for where they pass through that
open plastic channel under the bottom bracket of one bike, and that's only
very rarely. Other lubrication? A Di2 derailleur still has mechanical pivoting
joints, doesn't it?

It's OK if someone wants to buy e-shifting. And given basic early adopter psychology, plus normal pride of ownership, it's a given that most who spend
many hundreds of dollars for its tiny benefits will say it's worth it.

But it seems obvious that 99.9999% of the world's cyclists - and even cycling
enthusiasts - get along just fine with mechanical systems. This choice proves
that, at best, bike technology is now way, way deep into diminishing returns.

And I really do think there's an important difference between "simple to use
because of incredible complexity built into a tiny box" and just plain "simple."
That difference shows up when something goes wrong.

- Frank Krygowski

Ah, but Frank. You apparently understand, It is NEW! (and therefore
obviously better :-)

And USians apparently have an almost unlimited amount of disposable
income - I read the other day that "shopping", i.e., going to the
Mall, is now considered a form of entertainment.

And, of course, one has to "keep up with the Jones" and one way to do
it is to have a more expensive bicycle. (we have at least one bloke
here who drops the casual mention of his $4,000 bike into the
conversation at frequent intervals).

What could be more up-market than electrical shifting. It is NEW, it
is EXPENSIVE, I got it and you don't. What better reasons could
possible be imagined for owning something?
--
cheers,

John B.

Once it's totally perfected, widespread and trickled-down to mid-range groupsets; I can see electronic shifting getting popular with touring bicyclists. There would be no problems with cables. I have bicycles with downtube shifters and I have bicycles with downtube shifters AND tubular tires. MY road touring bicycle has Campagnolo 9-Speed Mirage Ergo levers on it. Ratcheting front shifter lever mechanism. Why? Because I like being able to have two hands on the handlebar when honking up a hill or riding in strong cross winds on my loaded touring bike. Franks and YMMV. I DO KNOW what works best for ME.

Cheers

Yes, I agree with you. When the price drops there will undoubtedly be
a lot of bicycles sold with electric shifting. And, I'm sure that as
more and more devices are developed/invented to eliminate any and all
requirement for physical activity they will be marketed... and
purchased.

And yes, I hear you... Oh! I wouldn't have to take my hands off the
handle bars. Really? Of course about the first thing that young
people do after finally learning to ride a bicycle is practice riding
"hands off".

And the great improvement of electric shifting over what exists today
seems to be that instead of flicking your first finger to shift you
now can simply press the tip of your finger on a tiny button.... and
for that you get to pay in the neighborhood of $1,500. Ohhh, such a
bargain :-)

One can only assume that the next step in eliminating any and all
requirement for physical activity will be the electric bicycle.And, of
course, it is:

https://tinyurl.com/urcmt3r
Electric bicycles are showing strong year-over-year growth in the
U.S., with dollar sales growing by 95 percent in the 12 months ending
July 2017, and unit sales up 96 percent, according to global
information company The NPD Group. A $64.9 million category today,
electric bicycle sales have nearly tripled over the last 36 months.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, 23 November 2019 20:12:07 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 16:30:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Saturday, 23 November 2019 18:43:26 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:58:10 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 3:01:51 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 9:37:21 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
In my view, putting immense complexity into a sealed black box
does not make a system "simple."

From a user standpoint, Di2 is very simple -- more simple than cables. No tension adjustment or lubrication, and no sticking after riding in muck. You have to charge it now and then -- and you can get fussy with programming (on bike, no computer necessary for certain settings). Electronic shifting is not an imperative, and it's expensive, but its a reasonable choice.

Well, sure, everything is a reasonable choice for someone in some situations.

But "no tension adjustment or lubrication"? I can't remember the last time I
did a so-called tension adjustment on anything but the folding bike; and for
whatever reason, that one seemed to settle down early this year. I think all
my shift cables are lined with plastic, but for whatever reason, I don't ever
seem to have to lubricate them. Well, except for where they pass through that
open plastic channel under the bottom bracket of one bike, and that's only
very rarely. Other lubrication? A Di2 derailleur still has mechanical pivoting
joints, doesn't it?

It's OK if someone wants to buy e-shifting. And given basic early adopter psychology, plus normal pride of ownership, it's a given that most who spend
many hundreds of dollars for its tiny benefits will say it's worth it..

But it seems obvious that 99.9999% of the world's cyclists - and even cycling
enthusiasts - get along just fine with mechanical systems. This choice proves
that, at best, bike technology is now way, way deep into diminishing returns.

And I really do think there's an important difference between "simple to use
because of incredible complexity built into a tiny box" and just plain "simple."
That difference shows up when something goes wrong.

- Frank Krygowski

Ah, but Frank. You apparently understand, It is NEW! (and therefore
obviously better :-)

And USians apparently have an almost unlimited amount of disposable
income - I read the other day that "shopping", i.e., going to the
Mall, is now considered a form of entertainment.

And, of course, one has to "keep up with the Jones" and one way to do
it is to have a more expensive bicycle. (we have at least one bloke
here who drops the casual mention of his $4,000 bike into the
conversation at frequent intervals).

What could be more up-market than electrical shifting. It is NEW, it
is EXPENSIVE, I got it and you don't. What better reasons could
possible be imagined for owning something?
--
cheers,

John B.

Once it's totally perfected, widespread and trickled-down to mid-range groupsets; I can see electronic shifting getting popular with touring bicyclists. There would be no problems with cables. I have bicycles with downtube shifters and I have bicycles with downtube shifters AND tubular tires. MY road touring bicycle has Campagnolo 9-Speed Mirage Ergo levers on it. Ratcheting front shifter lever mechanism. Why? Because I like being able to have two hands on the handlebar when honking up a hill or riding in strong cross winds on my loaded touring bike. Franks and YMMV. I DO KNOW what works best for ME.

Cheers

Yes, I agree with you. When the price drops there will undoubtedly be
a lot of bicycles sold with electric shifting. And, I'm sure that as
more and more devices are developed/invented to eliminate any and all
requirement for physical activity they will be marketed... and
purchased.

And yes, I hear you... Oh! I wouldn't have to take my hands off the
handle bars. Really? Of course about the first thing that young
people do after finally learning to ride a bicycle is practice riding
"hands off".

And the great improvement of electric shifting over what exists today
seems to be that instead of flicking your first finger to shift you
now can simply press the tip of your finger on a tiny button.... and
for that you get to pay in the neighborhood of $1,500. Ohhh, such a
bargain :-)

One can only assume that the next step in eliminating any and all
requirement for physical activity will be the electric bicycle.And, of
course, it is:

https://tinyurl.com/urcmt3r
Electric bicycles are showing strong year-over-year growth in the
U.S., with dollar sales growing by 95 percent in the 12 months ending
July 2017, and unit sales up 96 percent, according to global
information company The NPD Group. A $64.9 million category today,
electric bicycle sales have nearly tripled over the last 36 months.
--
cheers,

John B.

John, sometimes it's hard to tell if you're trying to be funny or obtuse. LOL VBEG

When riding up a long hill with a fully loaded touring bicycle especially with a strong side wind or worse strong side gusts, it's very nice to be able to make a shift without having to remove a hand from the handlebar.

Like many things, if/when electronic shifting trickles down the group hierarchy so too will the price for it. When SIS downtube shifting was first perfected it was only available with the top of the line Dura Ace group. Now SIS is available even in some of the lowest level Shimano groups.

Like i said, I LIKE my Campagnolo 9-Speed Ergo shifters. They allow me to keep two hands on the handlebar when I need to shift in sketchy conditions. That ability to keep two hands on the handlebar during a shift means I shift a LOT more often than I did/do with downtube shifters. YMMV

I find being able to shift whenever I need/want to makes bicycling and especially touring with a loaded bicycle a LOT more EFFICIENT. Again, YMMV.

Once electronic shifting trickles down in groups and price I might consider getting it for my touring bicycle.

BTW, I do NOT want or need an electric powered bicycle-like object. I have absolutely no interest in any electronic moped or bicycle-like device. If I was going to forgo my bicycles I'd simply move to an internal combustion motorcycle where I would not have to worry much about running out of fuel/charge out in the boonies since I'd be able to carry extra fuel with me if needed.

Cheers

Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:27:21 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Well, unless, of course, the computerized equipment made the bike
lighter. Or faster. Or climbed hills quicker :-)

Or your primary interest is fiddling with the equipment.


It’s not bicycle related, but I spent WAY more time fiddling with cars
before the computers took over. Idle speed, idle mixture, choke
adjustments, timing, dwell, vacuum advance, plug gap. Now I just pour gas
and drive. I could imagine Di2 to be that way if you wanted it to be.

On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 5:30:10 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 6:37:21 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/23/2019 5:15 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 6:49:45 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 5:34:55 PM UTC-5, wrote:

In general, I prefer to stay away from bicycle technologies that require
such explanations. Those include hydraulic discs. (Ten paragraph lines
of possible solutions?) Ditto for electronic shifting ("First press and
hold the button to enter the programming mode... or connect to your
computer interface using the appropriate software...") Ditto for STI,
which usually gets summarized as "You can't fix it. Just throw it away
and buy another one."

I know I'm archaic. But I like simple mechanical devices that get
diagnosed by sight and fixed with things like allen wrenches.

And I never liked working on plumbing.


--
- Frank Krygowski

If I am going to talk like this will you shoot me please because that is the moment you give up to learn and experiencing something new. I'm a mechanical engineer that started with a simple drawing board and those awful ink pens and no PC's. Then we got 2D cad, then 3D cad and then 3D cad with integrated simulation and calculation modules and databases. It got complicated everytime but is was nevertheless progress.

Requiring computers is different from being able to use computers.

I was and still am quite skilled as a paper draftsman. When it became available,
I learned and used 2-d computer drafting. I learned 3-d solid modeling. (Hell,
the last piece of furniture I built was designed using 3-d solid modeling.) I
learned and used Finite Element Analysis. I can do that sort of stuff.

But I don't want equipment on my bike that requires interfacing to a computer to
adjust or fix. To me, that's the opposite of "appropriate technology.." I have
done plumbing and can still do plumbing, but I don't like it and I don't want
plumbing on my bike. And so on. I think bikes should be simple. YMMV..

- Frank Krygowski

What makes you believe that electronic shifting needs interfacing to computer to adjust or fix?

Well, the first clue I got was in forums such as these, where some
people posted questions about how to use the computer interface for
adjusting some feature or another. Then I came across online
instructions (and maybe videos?) telling or showing how to do it.

I'll admit, I don't know how necessary those procedures really are. I
could learn that only by installing the system, and I don't have a
reason to do that.

That is not true and it is one of your misconceptions that hold you back from looking at it with an open mind. You just push a button instead of turning on a adjusting barrel. What is the difference? For most people this is more intuitive. In my kind of work a mechatronic approach leads in most cases to the best design/solution for a problem, so a combination of mechanics, electronics and software. In my opinion shifting on a bicycle is an example of a problem that will benifit from a mechatronic approach. The weak point of the current pure mechanical solution are the cables and the complicated mechanical components in the shifter in the environment were they are used. Shifting by wire solves the issue of the cables and make the internals of the shifter immensely simple. The electronics are simple for today standards and the same apply for the firmware. In the beginning you have to have vision and see the potential of such a system: a low maintenance, reliable, easy to setup and simpler system.

Your definition of "simple" is much different than mine. On one hand, we
have a lever with a cylindrical surface on which a cable is wrapped. The
cable passes through a housing, then pulls on (effectively) a lever
built into the derailleur. A spring makes it return. Everything is
visible and easy to understand, easy to diagnose, and can be fixed with
hand tools that fit in one's pocket.

OTOH, we have a battery, wires, an electric actuator of some kind with
who-knows-what inside it (do you know?), push buttons and unknown
circuits of microelectronic components and probably hundreds of lines of
code. In my view, putting immense complexity into a sealed black box
does not make a system "simple."

One day, I'm sure, Shimano will introduce "thought shifting" triggered
by some bio-electronic technology. I'm sure it will have fans who will
say "I can't believe I used to have to move my fingers to shift." I'm
sure you will be one of those fans; and I'm sure I won't.

--
- Frank Krygowski

There is another attempt to ridicule things Frank. Lets do the same. If you are scared by simple hardware and software that poll 4 simple switches and when it detects that a switch is actuated it sends a predetermined amount of pulses and a direction signal to the right stepper motor maybe you should consider a bike with a wheel you can flip to get the other gear like in the very old days. Why risk a failure of a cable or a complex mechanical device such as a derailleur with multiple pivots and a springs that can fail.. Then of course you only have two gears and you have to stop and get off the bike first but hey you are not racing so it shouldn't matter.

If you really want to run your argument to the absurd, you could take it in
either direction. So let's look the other way. Tell me, Lou, which components
of a bicycle should NOT be electrically/computer controlled? Are you waiting
impatiently for electronic brakes? For digital steering? Do you want a kickstand
that automatically descends when your butt leaves the saddle? All are technically
feasible. Must we therefore spend hundreds or more for each of those? Or are we
perhaps allowed to evaluate benefits vs. detriments?

Your toaster, oven and dishwasher is more complicated than Di2.

Baloney. My toaster uses electricity to heat the coils. The rest is a bimetallic
strip triggering a mechanical latch, plus a spring and a few more details. My
oven is gas with a simple safety circuit and a simple (probably analog)
temperature control. Its timer is a simple clock. And my dishwasher is, right
now, seated in the rocking chair five feet to my right.

OK, she's complex - but in other ways entirely. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 5:36:09 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 10:58:13 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 3:01:51 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 9:37:21 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
In my view, putting immense complexity into a sealed black box
does not make a system "simple."

From a user standpoint, Di2 is very simple -- more simple than cables.. No tension adjustment or lubrication, and no sticking after riding in muck. You have to charge it now and then -- and you can get fussy with programming (on bike, no computer necessary for certain settings). Electronic shifting is not an imperative, and it's expensive, but its a reasonable choice.

Well, sure, everything is a reasonable choice for someone in some situations.

But "no tension adjustment or lubrication"? I can't remember the last time I
did a so-called tension adjustment on anything but the folding bike; and for
whatever reason, that one seemed to settle down early this year. I think all
my shift cables are lined with plastic, but for whatever reason, I don't ever
seem to have to lubricate them. Well, except for where they pass through that
open plastic channel under the bottom bracket of one bike, and that's only
very rarely. Other lubrication? A Di2 derailleur still has mechanical pivoting
joints, doesn't it?

It's OK if someone wants to buy e-shifting. And given basic early adopter psychology, plus normal pride of ownership, it's a given that most who spend
many hundreds of dollars for its tiny benefits will say it's worth it.

But it seems obvious that 99.9999% of the world's cyclists - and even cycling
enthusiasts - get along just fine with mechanical systems. This choice proves
that, at best, bike technology is now way, way deep into diminishing returns.

And I really do think there's an important difference between "simple to use
because of incredible complexity built into a tiny box" and just plain "simple."
That difference shows up when something goes wrong.

- Frank Krygowski

What incredible complexity?

Lou

Upthread, I described the workings of a friction shifter in maybe 50 words or
so. Except for the design of the derailleur's mechanics (which is essentially
the same for both friction shifting and Di2) my description is very nearly
enough for a competent machinist to make a working system. It's that simple..

Can you do the same now for Di2? Don't omit a sufficiently thorough explanation
of the micro code and a description of the actuator in the derailleur. Describe
it well enough that someone can make one, plus program the code.

Similarly, if you like we can compare descriptions of what to check if each
shifting system stops moving the derailleur. I know what to do if my rear
derailleur cable breaks and my bike is stuck in the smallest cog. Two times
(in 50+ years) I've fixed that on the road, far from home.

Tell us what you should do if your Di2 gets stuck in the smallest cog.

The comparison should show which is complex and which is not.

- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 8:57:43 PM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:27:21 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Well, unless, of course, the computerized equipment made the bike
lighter. Or faster. Or climbed hills quicker :-)

Or your primary interest is fiddling with the equipment.


It’s not bicycle related, but I spent WAY more time fiddling with cars
before the computers took over. Idle speed, idle mixture, choke
adjustments, timing, dwell, vacuum advance, plug gap. Now I just pour gas
and drive. I could imagine Di2 to be that way if you wanted it to be.

My point here is not that we should eschew everything controlled by electronics.
My main point is that we should rationally evaluate benefits vs. detriments; and
that in my view, the benefits of electronic shifting are minimal and too costly.

Cars have increased greatly in reliability and performance, often because of
electronics, and that's good. But Di2 has not improved bike shifting or
shifting reliability to anything like the same degree.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 17:38:47 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Saturday, 23 November 2019 20:12:07 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 16:30:21 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Saturday, 23 November 2019 18:43:26 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:58:10 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 3:01:51 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 9:37:21 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
In my view, putting immense complexity into a sealed black box
does not make a system "simple."

From a user standpoint, Di2 is very simple -- more simple than cables. No tension adjustment or lubrication, and no sticking after riding in muck. You have to charge it now and then -- and you can get fussy with programming (on bike, no computer necessary for certain settings). Electronic shifting is not an imperative, and it's expensive, but its a reasonable choice.

Well, sure, everything is a reasonable choice for someone in some situations.

But "no tension adjustment or lubrication"? I can't remember the last time I
did a so-called tension adjustment on anything but the folding bike; and for
whatever reason, that one seemed to settle down early this year. I think all
my shift cables are lined with plastic, but for whatever reason, I don't ever
seem to have to lubricate them. Well, except for where they pass through that
open plastic channel under the bottom bracket of one bike, and that's only
very rarely. Other lubrication? A Di2 derailleur still has mechanical pivoting
joints, doesn't it?

It's OK if someone wants to buy e-shifting. And given basic early adopter psychology, plus normal pride of ownership, it's a given that most who spend
many hundreds of dollars for its tiny benefits will say it's worth it.

But it seems obvious that 99.9999% of the world's cyclists - and even cycling
enthusiasts - get along just fine with mechanical systems. This choice proves
that, at best, bike technology is now way, way deep into diminishing returns.

And I really do think there's an important difference between "simple to use
because of incredible complexity built into a tiny box" and just plain "simple."
That difference shows up when something goes wrong.

- Frank Krygowski

Ah, but Frank. You apparently understand, It is NEW! (and therefore
obviously better :-)

And USians apparently have an almost unlimited amount of disposable
income - I read the other day that "shopping", i.e., going to the
Mall, is now considered a form of entertainment.

And, of course, one has to "keep up with the Jones" and one way to do
it is to have a more expensive bicycle. (we have at least one bloke
here who drops the casual mention of his $4,000 bike into the
conversation at frequent intervals).

What could be more up-market than electrical shifting. It is NEW, it
is EXPENSIVE, I got it and you don't. What better reasons could
possible be imagined for owning something?
--
cheers,

John B.

Once it's totally perfected, widespread and trickled-down to mid-range groupsets; I can see electronic shifting getting popular with touring bicyclists. There would be no problems with cables. I have bicycles with downtube shifters and I have bicycles with downtube shifters AND tubular tires. MY road touring bicycle has Campagnolo 9-Speed Mirage Ergo levers on it. Ratcheting front shifter lever mechanism. Why? Because I like being able to have two hands on the handlebar when honking up a hill or riding in strong cross winds on my loaded touring bike. Franks and YMMV. I DO KNOW what works best for ME.

Cheers

Yes, I agree with you. When the price drops there will undoubtedly be
a lot of bicycles sold with electric shifting. And, I'm sure that as
more and more devices are developed/invented to eliminate any and all
requirement for physical activity they will be marketed... and
purchased.

And yes, I hear you... Oh! I wouldn't have to take my hands off the
handle bars. Really? Of course about the first thing that young
people do after finally learning to ride a bicycle is practice riding
"hands off".

And the great improvement of electric shifting over what exists today
seems to be that instead of flicking your first finger to shift you
now can simply press the tip of your finger on a tiny button.... and
for that you get to pay in the neighborhood of $1,500. Ohhh, such a
bargain :-)

One can only assume that the next step in eliminating any and all
requirement for physical activity will be the electric bicycle.And, of
course, it is:

https://tinyurl.com/urcmt3r
Electric bicycles are showing strong year-over-year growth in the
U.S., with dollar sales growing by 95 percent in the 12 months ending
July 2017, and unit sales up 96 percent, according to global
information company The NPD Group. A $64.9 million category today,
electric bicycle sales have nearly tripled over the last 36 months.
--
cheers,

John B.

John, sometimes it's hard to tell if you're trying to be funny or obtuse. LOL VBEG

Cynical.

Here we have a two wheel vehicle that within living memory has largely
been a toy for adolescents and the poor who either couldn't get a
drivers license or were too poor to afford a "car" which suddenly
blossom out into a $12,000 plastic thing, which the great bulk of the
modern U.S. public wouldn't take if you paid them to.
Mechanically a design that dates back to about 1850, some 170 years
ago and a relatively simple designed then, with no major design
changes from then to now.

I might add that I was given a third/fourth/who knows/ hand bicycle
when I was 12 or maybe 13 years old which my father bought from the
hired hand on the next place for $3.00 because the brakes didn't work
and I fixed the brakes - coaster brake - at that tender age. Which
makes it fairly clear that a bicycle is not space age engineering.

And we hear about all the updates and improvements and ITS NEW (pay
more money).

It is difficult not to be a cynical.



When riding up a long hill with a fully loaded touring bicycle especially with a strong side wind or worse strong side gusts, it's very nice to be able to make a shift without having to remove a hand from the handlebar.

Sometimes when going up a long hill with a load I have actually gotten
off and pushed.

Like many things, if/when electronic shifting trickles down the group hierarchy so too will the price for it. When SIS downtube shifting was first perfected it was only available with the top of the line Dura Ace group. Now SIS is available even in some of the lowest level Shimano groups.

Like i said, I LIKE my Campagnolo 9-Speed Ergo shifters. They allow me to keep two hands on the handlebar when I need to shift in sketchy conditions. That ability to keep two hands on the handlebar during a shift means I shift a LOT more often than I did/do with downtube shifters. YMMV

I find being able to shift whenever I need/want to makes bicycling and especially touring with a loaded bicycle a LOT more EFFICIENT. Again, YMMV.

Once electronic shifting trickles down in groups and price I might consider getting it for my touring bicycle.

BTW, I do NOT want or need an electric powered bicycle-like object. I have absolutely no interest in any electronic moped or bicycle-like device. If I was going to forgo my bicycles I'd simply move to an internal combustion motorcycle where I would not have to worry much about running out of fuel/charge out in the boonies since I'd be able to carry extra fuel with me if needed.

Cheers

While you may not want an e-bike the point is that, as sales tripled
over the past three years, apparently a whole lot of other people do.

Technically, of course, a bicycle with an electric motor IS a
"motorcycle" but for the moment they seem to be being treated as
electrified bicycle, at least in the U.S. Singapore with a much
smaller population, and land area, and apparently large growth in
electrified vehicles, seems to be on the verge of treating them as
motorcycles with licensing, registration, safety inspections and all
the other benefits of government supervision.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:27:21 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 21:49:42 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

But I don't want equipment on my bike that requires interfacing to a
computer to adjust or fix. To me, that's the opposite of "appropriate
technology." I have done plumbing and can still do plumbing, but I don't
like it and I don't want plumbing on my bike. And so on. I think bikes
should be simple. YMMV.

- Frank Krygowski

Well, unless, of course, the computerized equipment made the bike
lighter. Or faster. Or climbed hills quicker :-)

Dream one. I want reliable. In the hundreds of PC computers i've built
over the years, very, very few of the have lasted for a decade. I want my
bicycle to last longer than that.

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 01:57:38 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:27:21 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Well, unless, of course, the computerized equipment made the bike
lighter. Or faster. Or climbed hills quicker :-)

Or your primary interest is fiddling with the equipment.


It’s not bicycle related, but I spent WAY more time fiddling with cars
before the computers took over. Idle speed, idle mixture, choke
adjustments, timing, dwell, vacuum advance, plug gap. Now I just pour gas
and drive. I could imagine Di2 to be that way if you wanted it to be.

I'm not sure how much of that is directly related to computers and how
much is related to better materials.

I read, for example, that Traditional Single Iridium Plugs have a life
expectancy or 40 - 50 thousand miles and OE Iridium Long Life Plugs
have a life expectancy of 80 - 120 thousand miles. I also believe that
machining tolerances in mechanical parts are much more accurate now
than in years past.

Not to belittle variable valve timing and all the other modern marvels
but I doubt that they are the whole story.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 20:50:29 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 5:36:09 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 10:58:13 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 3:01:51 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 9:37:21 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
In my view, putting immense complexity into a sealed black box
does not make a system "simple."

From a user standpoint, Di2 is very simple -- more simple than cables. No tension adjustment or lubrication, and no sticking after riding in muck. You have to charge it now and then -- and you can get fussy with programming (on bike, no computer necessary for certain settings). Electronic shifting is not an imperative, and it's expensive, but its a reasonable choice.

Well, sure, everything is a reasonable choice for someone in some situations.

But "no tension adjustment or lubrication"? I can't remember the last time I
did a so-called tension adjustment on anything but the folding bike; and for
whatever reason, that one seemed to settle down early this year. I think all
my shift cables are lined with plastic, but for whatever reason, I don't ever
seem to have to lubricate them. Well, except for where they pass through that
open plastic channel under the bottom bracket of one bike, and that's only
very rarely. Other lubrication? A Di2 derailleur still has mechanical pivoting
joints, doesn't it?

It's OK if someone wants to buy e-shifting. And given basic early adopter psychology, plus normal pride of ownership, it's a given that most who spend
many hundreds of dollars for its tiny benefits will say it's worth it.

But it seems obvious that 99.9999% of the world's cyclists - and even cycling
enthusiasts - get along just fine with mechanical systems. This choice proves
that, at best, bike technology is now way, way deep into diminishing returns.

And I really do think there's an important difference between "simple to use
because of incredible complexity built into a tiny box" and just plain "simple."
That difference shows up when something goes wrong.

- Frank Krygowski

What incredible complexity?

Lou

Upthread, I described the workings of a friction shifter in maybe 50 words or
so. Except for the design of the derailleur's mechanics (which is essentially
the same for both friction shifting and Di2) my description is very nearly
enough for a competent machinist to make a working system. It's that simple.

Can you do the same now for Di2? Don't omit a sufficiently thorough explanation
of the micro code and a description of the actuator in the derailleur. Describe
it well enough that someone can make one, plus program the code.

Similarly, if you like we can compare descriptions of what to check if each
shifting system stops moving the derailleur. I know what to do if my rear
derailleur cable breaks and my bike is stuck in the smallest cog. Two times
(in 50+ years) I've fixed that on the road, far from home.

Tell us what you should do if your Di2 gets stuck in the smallest cog.

The comparison should show which is complex and which is not.

- Frank Krygowski

There is an old - well at least 50 year old - saying that, "if it
ain't broke, don't fix it" which likely applies.

--
cheers,

John B.