Creeping brake pad drag

John B. writes:

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 01:57:38 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:27:21 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Well, unless, of course, the computerized equipment made the bike
lighter. Or faster. Or climbed hills quicker :-)

Or your primary interest is fiddling with the equipment.


It’s not bicycle related, but I spent WAY more time fiddling with cars
before the computers took over. Idle speed, idle mixture, choke
adjustments, timing, dwell, vacuum advance, plug gap. Now I just pour gas
and drive. I could imagine Di2 to be that way if you wanted it to be.

I'm not sure how much of that is directly related to computers and how
much is related to better materials.

I read, for example, that Traditional Single Iridium Plugs have a life
expectancy or 40 - 50 thousand miles and OE Iridium Long Life Plugs
have a life expectancy of 80 - 120 thousand miles. I also believe that
machining tolerances in mechanical parts are much more accurate now
than in years past.

Not to belittle variable valve timing and all the other modern marvels
but I doubt that they are the whole story.

Plugs used to get fouled with carbon, because engines ran rich,
especially when warming up. Closed loop fuel injection control systems
using oxygen sensors changed that.

On Sunday, November 24, 2019 at 7:32:57 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

BTW, I'm curious how many bikes you own, and how many have electronic
shifting. I have five bikes that I ride regularly, so I suspect
converting all to electronic shifting would be quite expensive. Have you
done that?

I have 7 bikes and I will end up this year with 11000 km. Two of the bikes are ridden less than 500 km/yr. Two of them have Di2. I don't convert bikes to Di2 they already had Di2 when bought. If I would buy a new bike it will be equipped with electronic shifting.

Lou

On Sunday, November 24, 2019 at 10:38:40 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/24/2019 11:35 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, November 24, 2019 at 6:04:58 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 8:57:43 PM UTC-5, Ralph Barone wrote:
Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:27:21 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Well, unless, of course, the computerized equipment made the bike
lighter. Or faster. Or climbed hills quicker :-)

Or your primary interest is fiddling with the equipment.


It’s not bicycle related, but I spent WAY more time fiddling with cars
before the computers took over. Idle speed, idle mixture, choke
adjustments, timing, dwell, vacuum advance, plug gap. Now I just pour gas
and drive. I could imagine Di2 to be that way if you wanted it to be.

My point here is not that we should eschew everything controlled by electronics.
My main point is that we should rationally evaluate benefits vs. detriments; and
that in my view, the benefits of electronic shifting are minimal and too costly.

Cars have increased greatly in reliability and performance, often because of
electronics, and that's good. But Di2 has not improved bike shifting or
shifting reliability to anything like the same degree.

- Frank Krygowski

Says who? You have again a strong opinion about the reliability of something you never used. I haven't touched my Di2 system in 6 years now using my cross bike in brutal conditions and undergoing a brutal cleaning regime at the carwash. It has been a boring system regarding maintenance. Is it worth the extra cost? That should even decide for their own. I'm not plugging electronic shifting I just oppose to the idea that it is complex and therefor unreliable.

You seem to have misunderstood. I never said Di2 was unreliable. I said
I don't think it has improved shifting reliability to a significant degree.

Why? Because ordinary shifting is already extremely reliable. There's
not much room for improvement.

As with so many bicycle equipment "advances," we're chasing minuscule
and diminishing returns.

A lot of it depends on how you ride your bike. On a CX bike in the muck, the reliability of a Di2 front derailleur shift under load may be a race winner. Ghost shifting of a gunked up cable under the BB may be a race loser. You can also use satellite shifters if you are a sprinter or a climiber or have a TT bike with bar extenders. The degree of return depends on who you are and how you use your bike.

-- Jay Beattie.

wrote:
On Sunday, November 24, 2019 at 7:32:57 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

BTW, I'm curious how many bikes you own, and how many have electronic
shifting. I have five bikes that I ride regularly, so I suspect
converting all to electronic shifting would be quite expensive. Have you
done that?

I have 7 bikes and I will end up this year with 11000 km. Two of the
bikes are ridden less than 500 km/yr. Two of them have Di2. I don't
convert bikes to Di2 they already had Di2 when bought. If I would buy a
new bike it will be equipped with electronic shifting.

Lou


11000 km is pretty impressive. I do about half that but the season here
is April through November. I gave up on riding in snow.

I’m down to one road bike. It doesn’t have Di2 or disc brakes but I expect
the next bike will have both. Not that I’ll shop for that but I doubt road
bikes will come without them. My friends that have Di2 now have it for
the most part because the bike they liked came with it. They seem to like
it and I haven’t heard of anyone complaining about problems.

You’re arguing with people that had the same sort of argument about
brifters.

On Sunday, 24 November 2019 15:14:40 UTC-5, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, November 24, 2019 at 7:32:57 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

BTW, I'm curious how many bikes you own, and how many have electronic
shifting. I have five bikes that I ride regularly, so I suspect
converting all to electronic shifting would be quite expensive. Have you
done that?

I have 7 bikes and I will end up this year with 11000 km. Two of the
bikes are ridden less than 500 km/yr. Two of them have Di2. I don't
convert bikes to Di2 they already had Di2 when bought. If I would buy a
new bike it will be equipped with electronic shifting.

Lou


11000 km is pretty impressive. I do about half that but the season here
is April through November. I gave up on riding in snow.

I’m down to one road bike. It doesn’t have Di2 or disc brakes but I expect
the next bike will have both. Not that I’ll shop for that but I doubt road
bikes will come without them. My friends that have Di2 now have it for
the most part because the bike they liked came with it. They seem to like
it and I haven’t heard of anyone complaining about problems.

You’re arguing with people that had the same sort of argument about
brifters.

Some people still argue that Brifters or Ergos aren't needed on ANY bicycle..

I wonder how heated the arguments would have been had the internet been around when the transition from wooden frames or from wooden wheels to metal ones or from solid rubber tires to pneumatic tires?

Cheers

On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 8:02:58 AM UTC, wrote:

Many people expect that when getting disk brakes they will get a maintenance free system. Thats is not the case. Cleaning the pistons once in a while is something I do to prevent pad drag which in most cases is only a mental issue. Cleaning the pistons is no more work than getting the metal parts out of the brake pads and/or sanding the brake areas of the rims after a rainy and muddy ride with caliper brakes and the sound that caliper brakepads make with metal parts inbedded is much worse than than little drag sound disk brakes make. YMMV.

Lou

One disc brake system that is sealed for life, zero service, is Magura's Hydraulic Rim Brakes, where the rim serves as the disc.

That doesn't mean that Magura Hydraulic Rim Brake are not serviceable in case of a catastrophic failure (like getting the tube ripped out by a branch) but that no routine service is prescribed or required.

My Magura Hydraulic Rim Brakes are ten years old and have never been opened..

Andre Jute
Sooner or later it will be possible to make a zero service bike

On Sunday, November 24, 2019 at 9:14:40 PM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, November 24, 2019 at 7:32:57 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

BTW, I'm curious how many bikes you own, and how many have electronic
shifting. I have five bikes that I ride regularly, so I suspect
converting all to electronic shifting would be quite expensive. Have you
done that?

I have 7 bikes and I will end up this year with 11000 km. Two of the
bikes are ridden less than 500 km/yr. Two of them have Di2. I don't
convert bikes to Di2 they already had Di2 when bought. If I would buy a
new bike it will be equipped with electronic shifting.

Lou


11000 km is pretty impressive. I do about half that but the season here
is April through November. I gave up on riding in snow.

We have a mild climate here and that helps of course what helps more is the fact that since last april I only work 4 days a week. We have an arrangement that 5 years before actual retirement you can work 80% for 90% salary and full pension build up. I make use of that arrangement since april this year so I'm planning longer rides on Friday's now.


I’m down to one road bike. It doesn’t have Di2 or disc brakes but I expect
the next bike will have both. Not that I’ll shop for that but I doubt road
bikes will come without them. My friends that have Di2 now have it for
the most part because the bike they liked came with it. They seem to like
it and I haven’t heard of anyone complaining about problems.

Di2 and other electronic shifter is here to stay

You’re arguing with people that had the same sort of argument about
brifters.

I know.

Lou

On Sunday, November 24, 2019 at 12:14:40 PM UTC-8, Duane wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, November 24, 2019 at 7:32:57 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:

BTW, I'm curious how many bikes you own, and how many have electronic
shifting. I have five bikes that I ride regularly, so I suspect
converting all to electronic shifting would be quite expensive. Have you
done that?

I have 7 bikes and I will end up this year with 11000 km. Two of the
bikes are ridden less than 500 km/yr. Two of them have Di2. I don't
convert bikes to Di2 they already had Di2 when bought. If I would buy a
new bike it will be equipped with electronic shifting.

Lou


11000 km is pretty impressive. I do about half that but the season here
is April through November. I gave up on riding in snow.

I’m down to one road bike. It doesn’t have Di2 or disc brakes but I expect
the next bike will have both. Not that I’ll shop for that but I doubt road
bikes will come without them. My friends that have Di2 now have it for
the most part because the bike they liked came with it. They seem to like
it and I haven’t heard of anyone complaining about problems.

You’re arguing with people that had the same sort of argument about
brifters.

The lever effort has gotten so light for the latest Ultegra 11sp and shifting so accurate that Di2 is truly a luxury item for non-racers. It's nice, but not an imperative for me. I was riding my Emonda SLR yesterday with rim brakes and cable shifting, and it was great. No bad stops and no missed shifts. It was dry, though. Today was wet, and I would have taken my Di2 disc Synapse, but instead I went for a walk with my wife through the fairy kingdom down the street at Tryon Creek State Park. https://www.oregonhikers.org/w/image...leyBridge1.jpg I needed a day off.

My daily commute mileage is short, but commuting every day -- even if short -- takes it out my legs, and I had a pretty good speed run yesterday, so I went for a walk today. Soon Sunday will be the weekly ski day if scientifically proven global warming doesn't ruin the season.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sunday, November 24, 2019 at 10:52:55 PM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 8:02:58 AM UTC, wrote:

Many people expect that when getting disk brakes they will get a maintenance free system. Thats is not the case. Cleaning the pistons once in a while is something I do to prevent pad drag which in most cases is only a mental issue. Cleaning the pistons is no more work than getting the metal parts out of the brake pads and/or sanding the brake areas of the rims after a rainy and muddy ride with caliper brakes and the sound that caliper brakepads make with metal parts inbedded is much worse than than little drag sound disk brakes make. YMMV.

Lou

One disc brake system that is sealed for life, zero service, is Magura's Hydraulic Rim Brakes, where the rim serves as the disc.

That doesn't mean that Magura Hydraulic Rim Brake are not serviceable in case of a catastrophic failure (like getting the tube ripped out by a branch) but that no routine service is prescribed or required.

My Magura Hydraulic Rim Brakes are ten years old and have never been opened.

I think that system would even impress Frank if you is willing to try them and not stuck in his believes. Hell of a system. It is on my commuter/touring bike. You get rid of the cables, replacing brake pads is very easy but you have to compensate for pad wear which is very easy but it still eats rims.
If someone ask for advice which brakes to choose for a commuter or touring bike I will advice these hydraulic rim brakes.

Lou

On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 10:15:17 AM UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 6:49:45 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 5:34:55 PM UTC-5, wrote:

In general, I prefer to stay away from bicycle technologies that require
such explanations. Those include hydraulic discs. (Ten paragraph lines
of possible solutions?) Ditto for electronic shifting ("First press and
hold the button to enter the programming mode... or connect to your
computer interface using the appropriate software...") Ditto for STI,
which usually gets summarized as "You can't fix it. Just throw it away
and buy another one."

I know I'm archaic. But I like simple mechanical devices that get
diagnosed by sight and fixed with things like allen wrenches.

And I never liked working on plumbing.


--
- Frank Krygowski

If I am going to talk like this will you shoot me please because that is the moment you give up to learn and experiencing something new. I'm a mechanical engineer that started with a simple drawing board and those awful ink pens and no PC's. Then we got 2D cad, then 3D cad and then 3D cad with integrated simulation and calculation modules and databases. It got complicated everytime but is was nevertheless progress.

Requiring computers is different from being able to use computers.

I was and still am quite skilled as a paper draftsman. When it became available,
I learned and used 2-d computer drafting. I learned 3-d solid modeling. (Hell,
the last piece of furniture I built was designed using 3-d solid modeling.) I
learned and used Finite Element Analysis. I can do that sort of stuff.

But I don't want equipment on my bike that requires interfacing to a computer to
adjust or fix. To me, that's the opposite of "appropriate technology." I have
done plumbing and can still do plumbing, but I don't like it and I don't want
plumbing on my bike. And so on. I think bikes should be simple. YMMV.

- Frank Krygowski

What makes you believe that electronic shifting needs interfacing to computer to adjust or fix? That is not true and it is one of your misconceptions that hold you back from looking at it with an open mind. You just push a button instead of turning on a adjusting barrel. What is the difference? For most people this is more intuitive.

The biggest problem on my all-electronic (full-auto gearshift, adaptive suspension) Di2 Trek
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html
was where to hide the excess wiring after I rejigged the bike fit me.

In addition, after a couple of electrical motor installations of increasing sophistication on my Utopia Kranich and half-a dozen years of experience, I have yet to run into an electronic problem. After years of crude and fragile and unreliable derailleurs, I just don't believe in the subtext of this conversation, that derailleurs rule.

In my kind of work a mechatronic approach leads in most cases to the best design/solution for a problem, so a combination of mechanics, electronics and software. In my opinion shifting on a bicycle is an example of a problem that will benifit from a mechatronic approach. The weak point of the current pure mechanical solution are the cables and the complicated mechanical components in the shifter in the environment were they are used. Shifting by wire solves the issue of the cables and make the internals of the shifter immensely simple. The electronics are simple for today standards and the same apply for the firmware. In the beginning you have to have vision and see the potential of such a system: a low maintenance, reliable, easy to setup and simpler system. As a benifit it will also be lighter. As you repeately showed you only see the potential problems which after a while don't exist anymore.
If you wonder how your books are printed today look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psm5e0lXFHw

on a machine I helped to develop. I think Amazon has 5 of these engines to print your books on demand overnight.

I operate a Facebook group with 23K members that another writer and I set up to give third world writers at least part of the breaks we had. Of course many writers from the first world join too. For all of them, print-on-demand stands as the greatest invention ever for empowering the spread of their work through Amazon and other new-age publishers. On their behalf, I thank you, Lou for the grand thing you've done.

have a nice weekend,

Lou

Andre Jute
Wordsmith