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  #51  
Old December 9th 19, 12:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Bike adjustments

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 2:46:37 AM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/8/2019 7:36 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 12:58:54 AM UTC, AMuzi wrote:

'Gunar abortion' WTF?

Gunnar _race bikes_ have short chainstays, suitable to race
bike riders/customers.

Of their 16 models, that's four (2 single speed, two
geared). The long wheelbase styles (most of the line) are
longer.

http://gunnarbikes.com



This is the reference, posted by one AMuzi:
http://www.gunnarbikes.com/newslette...29-04_ming.jpg

Andre Jute
Eiditic


Ahem.

Had Mr Ming wanted something different, Gunnar would have
built it differently. Hence the term 'custom'.

http://gunnarbikes.com/site/order/custom-order-form/
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Aha! The exception that doesn't prove the rule. Thanks for clearing that up. -- AJ
Ads
  #52  
Old December 9th 19, 01:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Bike adjustments

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 3:05:48 AM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:

BTW, a Peloton ad recently got the internet's ire up.
https://www.thecut.com/2019/12/pelot...icized-ad.html


All that tells you, Franki-boy, is that their marketing department and advertising agency suffered an explosion of group think, with predictable results, magnified by the constant malice of little people like you whose malice is empowered by social media on their phones.

It tells the rest of us that you're so weak-minded that, despite your claims to be a "spokesman for bicycles", you gloat about damage done to a corporation that might well in time have put a few people on bicycles. It also tells us you're so railroad-minded that you cannot see that these Peloton people were creating an avenue for proselytising potential cyclists.

Once more everyone runs into the pot-iron barriers around what little there is of your mind. Those pot-iron barriers aren't much good if they leak malice on the scale visible in this post of yours.

Andre Jute
Longtime observer of cyclists (and their wannabe "spokesmen") shooting themselves and each other in the foot
  #53  
Old December 9th 19, 01:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 824
Default Bike adjustments

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 9:21:33 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 23:27:31 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 12:57:20 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 04:02:35 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 8:20:33 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2019 23:03:31 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 12:49:42 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 3:28:56 PM UTC-8, wrote:
As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was measured last Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The measuring program didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into account in contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange because most of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy day yesterday so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I adjusted by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike. Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round trip) to discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the shop a drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show the measurements of the position of the shifter on the handlebar and this came very close what I measured on my bikes especially measurement E, F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct frame size taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and the new Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my measurements into account. My question is what do these measurement programs exactly do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these measurements?

Lou

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

The measurements are intended to impress you. Shop drawings and proposals?
What, are you buying from General Dynamics? What are you buying?

Back in the day, seat tube length was a big deal, but now with compacts and long seat posts, the important measurement is TT, so I suppose they're trying to get your TT just right to size the bike with a stem that is not too short or too long, which might affect steering in some metaphysical way. Unless you're built like ET, they'll pull a "medium" out of stock, declare it custom and hand it to you.


Yes that is what I thought. 7 body measurements (left and right footlength ???) which resulted in 19 adjustment proposals, even a seattube angle of 73.74 degrees. WTF? Bike will be custom build (parts) but frame will not be custom. I just wanted the right size to begin with (over-the counter) and not ending up with a 80 mm stem. These are good guys btw but they soon found out that I'm not the average customer ;-) They are dealers of BMC, Cannondale, Cervelo, IDworx, Santos, De Rosa, Bianchi and the brand I'm buying now which made me part of an American family. How about that for marketing ;-)

Lou.

It used to be much simpler. Buy a bike that you could stand over; set
the seat height and position; set the stem position; ride the bike and
make any more changes.

It still works for me :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Yes I remembered that time, where all frames had horizontal top tubes, only 2 saddles and handlebars to choose from and of course that awful quill stem. Most of the time people rode to large frames. That time passed thank god.

Lou

Really? And just how are modern bikes fitted better? Do your feet
reach the pedals better? Do your hands reach the handlebars better?


Never said that. Chosing a bike frame by just stand over height doesn't work anymore with sloping top tubes and handlebars that come in different shapes (drop and reach).

But tell us how far back your memories reach. Brooks, for example made
various models of bicycle seats in 1880
--


You are playing silly again.

Well, you said that, " I remembered that time, where all frames had
horizontal top tubes, only 2 saddles and handlebars to choose from".

I was amazed that you could be that old and asked you how far back
your memories went. Certainly if you could remember back when there
were only two bicycle seats to choose from it must have been Before
Brooks (for example) started selling more than one model of seat.

So who's being silly? You for exaggerations to bolster your arguments?
Or me for questioning your exaggerations?
--
cheers,

John B.


John you started to ridicule todays bike fitting by stating that the stand over height method and raising/lowering the saddle and handlebar still works for you. Bike fitting today and the past is all about getting your butt, feet and hands on the right position relative to each other while riding your bike depending on:
- preference,
- riding style,
- your physical condition/ability,
- body proportions.
Today there is a lot more choices in handlebar drop/reach, frame geometries and saddles then there were in the past. They all determine were your butt, hands and feet end up giving a particular frame. A simple test if your nutts don't hit the top tube and the lower/raise a handlebar and saddle would be a not so smart method to choose a frame size/bike.

Lou
  #55  
Old December 9th 19, 05:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Bike adjustments

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 6:48:49 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/8/2019 7:48 PM, James wrote:
On 8/12/19 10:28 am, wrote:
As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was
measured last
Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The
measuring program
didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into
account in
contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange
because most
of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy
day yesterday
so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I
adjusted
by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike.
Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round
trip) to
discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the
shop a
drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show
the
measurements of the position of the shifter on the
handlebar and this
came very close what I measured on my bikes especially
measurement E,
F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct
frame size
taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and
the new
Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my
measurements into
account. My question is what do these measurement programs
exactly
do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these
measurements?


The last bike I bought (gravel) was advertised with a chart
that was scaled to leg length. According to my leg length I
should have chosen an XL frame, but I reviewed the frame
angles and geometry against my custom road racing bike, and
decided on a L size frame. The XL would have had my hands
too high. Even so, with the L frame I have the head stem
all the way down, and I used a longer stem than the supplied
one of course, and I used a longer seat post too.

I also dislike the sloping top tube "compact" design, for
the simple reasons that;

a) longer frame tubes would probably weigh less than a long
seat post, and a longer seat post likely stresses the frame
more.

b) the sloping top tube is very difficult to sit on while
you're stopped somewhere to admire the view and eat a banana.

c) the area in the triangle is reduced which restricts that
available to carry water bottles or frame bags and stuff, if
you so desire.


While bucking current fashion, you are not alone.

The #1 item in custom orders is 'level top tube'.


I wonder why this is the #1 request. Is it people who are invested in using their old Silca frame pumps? My custom order would be a Gruber Assist with the hidden Di2 button.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #56  
Old December 9th 19, 06:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Bike adjustments

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 5:01:59 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 2:40:40 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 7:13:30 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.

What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what? My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.

Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen, what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?

-- Jay Beattie.


Mythology Jay. Cycling is rife with it and you know that.


A fellow I know went to an LBS where the fitter had "a bigger rep than the guy who hands you your coffee at the machine". He thought *he* was being fitted but after a lot of shoving and pushing, the clerk said, outraged, "You don't fit any of our bikes!"

*****

The customer complained that his new suit didn't fit. 'The sleeves are too short,' he said to the tailor.

'Yes sir,' said the tailor, 'but if you hold your arm just so, at an angle as if you're drinking tea with your auntie, it will show just the right amount of cuff.'

The customer tried it. The tailor was right! 'But what about the other sleeve? It is definitely too short.'

'Just lower your shoulder, sir. Yes, yes, a little more. Put your foot out so you can lower your shoulder a little more still. Bend your knee. Yes, that's it. See how beautifully your suitcoat now fits?'

The customer had to admit the tailor was right. 'Wow. But now the leg of the pants is all twisted around.'

'That's easily fixed,' said the tailor. 'Just point your other toe westward, sir, and look over your shoulder to where I am holding up the hand mirror. See? Doesn't that fit beautifully?'

'Yes,' the customer said doubtfully, 'but-'

'Now would sir like to wear his brilliant new suit or shall we wrap it?'

The customer was too intimidated to argue. He walked out into the street in his new suit, his arm crooked as if he were drinking tea, his other shoulder well down over a bent knee with his foot out to the side, his other foot pointing westwards, his head twisted back between hunched shoulders as if complaining to God about a cruel fate.

Behind him he heard a boy say to his father. 'Oh, Daddy, look at the poor twisted cripple.'

'Hush,' the father said. 'Be grateful the poor man found such a brilliant tailor.'

From http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...dre%20Jute.htm

****

Andre Jute
Euphonics


I have bikes that fit that are from 58 to 62 cm. As a sports rider the main thing to obtain is control. I can descend FASTER on the round tube, high sitting Basso at 62 cm than I can with the aerodynamic Colnago.

So I just say that I'm not a Lance Armstrong - I'm much closer to a Neal Armstrong. And leave it at that.
  #57  
Old December 9th 19, 06:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Bike adjustments

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 4:32:22 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:13:30 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 4:17:45 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, December 7, 2019 at 11:49:42 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:

Lou, if its a compact, buy a "medium." Done. Why should it be any more difficult than buying one of your Canyons?

In Europe bicycle manufacturers take themselves and their customers seriously.


What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?


1mm of my desired posture on the bike, of course. What else?

My bikes fit me exactly because I have adjusted the saddle height, position and stem length and rise (or purchased a bike with appropriate stack height so I don't need rise). My bikes are exactly fitted to me even though my frames are all over-the-counter. And my fit changes as I get older and creakier and less flexible.


I could ask the same kind of cantankerous question as your question:
What does it even mean that your bikes fit you to within 1mm? 1mm of what?

say, "What does it even mean that your fit changes? From what?" But I won't. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what you're talking about.

If you do, you've just made my point for me. If you don't, I already have a knowledgeable source of advice, thanks all the same.

Assuming you had long legs and a tiny torso, you might need a custom frame with a short TT and weird geometry, but assuming you're not misshapen,


The better baukast (a German custom bike house, more precisely semi-custom as some of them are pretty big, and there are some German full-custom makers who'll build you a custom frame from scratch) has a philosophy and a set of frames to match it, and many sets of components approved by being tested to destruction, in the case of my chosen baukast in many cases designed for them by first-class German, Dutch and Belgian component makers. First you ascertain that the philosophy of the main man at the baukast fits you, then you check that one of their bike sizes fits you, then they change components until it fits you perfectly. At my chosen baukast, for instance, they consider tall seatposts bad engineering, as do I. So they want you to sit comfortably with your feet on the pedals without adjusting the designed-in seat height more than fractionally. And so on, point for point matching my outlook/prejudices, desires. Next thing I looked for is that all their bikes are truly scaled because they ordered custom tubes from Columbus, none of those Gunnar abortions of very tall bikes with very short chain stays because that's what the manufacturer had in stock. So their bikes have long wheelbases in relation to size, and that too is good, because I like to know how a bike will handle at the limit before I buy it, and a long wheelbase is half the battle for predictable handling. Etc, etc, a lot of stuff you won't understand, or want to hear, because you find me "tedious".

what basic dimension of your bike is any different from a similarly sized bike with basically the same geometry, vis., the same type of bike?


I own two other bikes that serve the same purpose, from Gazelle and Trek, people with very clued-in designers and marketing departments. My Utopia is fundamentally different in almost every respect, and does a great many things better than they do. But, since you drive a Subaru, and buy your bikes over the counter, you won't understand how these many advantages, some of them objectively small to the uninitiated, can add up to permanent satisfaction. In fact, I think it very likely that you will entirely miss the many advantages and be more concerned that the sum total of the prejudices of my bike maker doesn't add up to a bike that looks like every other bike. I couldn't care less about other people's opinion, but I understand those who'd rather blend with the moo-moo herd.


Your Utopia is a Byzantine mixte with a f****** motor. Why would you even need a custom fit? https://i.pinimg.com/originals/43/8b...9987ece1ca.jpg

My wife had a comfort bike like that and whenever I wanted to use it to go to the store, I would just raise the saddle. It had a QR post clamp. Very convenient.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #58  
Old December 9th 19, 06:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 4,018
Default Bike adjustments

On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 09:13:56 +0700, John B.
wrote:

But from your posts you seem to be an electronic sort of guy. Do
electronic guys wear hulking great boots?


Generally no. The local electronic types favor sandals, bare feet,
various "athletic" shoes, and ecologically correct, fair trade, and
sustainable shoes. For special occasions, conventional dress shoes or
western wear boots. The construction boots are useful because they
work in many environments (rain, mud, dirt, sand, etc) and different
applications (ride, walk, climb, slog, trudge, etc) where several
different types of shoes might otherwise be required.

Among the local electronic and non-electronic types, I'm probably the
only one who wears steel toe work boots on a regular basis. I'll
spare you my rationalizations as to why I prefer such boots for
everyday wear. Of course, I have other shoes available, but prefer
the construction boots:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/shoes.html
After I took the photo, I found another 10 pairs.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #59  
Old December 9th 19, 06:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Bike adjustments

On 12/9/2019 11:59 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 6:48:49 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/8/2019 7:48 PM, James wrote:
On 8/12/19 10:28 am, wrote:
As part of the ordering process of my gravel bike I was
measured last
Wednesday to determine the correct frame size. The
measuring program
didn't take the handlebar/shifter/shifter position into
account in
contrast to saddle make and type. I found that strange
because most
of the time you are riding on the hoods. It was a rainy
day yesterday
so I took the time to measure all my current bikes which I
adjusted
by 'feel' giving the purpose/riding style of that bike.
Results:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1HbWyM6g1gNqoyMx5

So today I went back to the LBS (another 100 km round
trip) to
discuss this. In the meantime the manufacturer emailed the
shop a
drawing of their proposal. Strangely this drawing did show
the
measurements of the position of the shifter on the
handlebar and this
came very close what I measured on my bikes especially
measurement E,
F and D. With the mechanic we figured out the correct
frame size
taking the chosen handlebar, a stem length of 110 mm and
the new
Ultegra shifters and the manufacturers proposal/my
measurements into
account. My question is what do these measurement programs
exactly
do? Are there people that close a bike only based on these
measurements?


The last bike I bought (gravel) was advertised with a chart
that was scaled to leg length. According to my leg length I
should have chosen an XL frame, but I reviewed the frame
angles and geometry against my custom road racing bike, and
decided on a L size frame. The XL would have had my hands
too high. Even so, with the L frame I have the head stem
all the way down, and I used a longer stem than the supplied
one of course, and I used a longer seat post too.

I also dislike the sloping top tube "compact" design, for
the simple reasons that;

a) longer frame tubes would probably weigh less than a long
seat post, and a longer seat post likely stresses the frame
more.

b) the sloping top tube is very difficult to sit on while
you're stopped somewhere to admire the view and eat a banana.

c) the area in the triangle is reduced which restricts that
available to carry water bottles or frame bags and stuff, if
you so desire.


While bucking current fashion, you are not alone.

The #1 item in custom orders is 'level top tube'.


I wonder why this is the #1 request. Is it people who are invested in using their old Silca frame pumps?


I suspect it's just aesthetics. And if a person likes it, why not? A
custom bike should accommodate one's quirks.

Related: Aesthetically, I'm bothered by the look of modern forks. Carbon
fiber ones look chunky and clunky. But even steel forks often don't look
graceful to me. The classic look seems prettiest: a tapered fork blade
that starts in line with the steering axis then bends forward to meet
the front axle. Even the straight steel fork blades that angle forward
from the fork crown look awkward to me.

There was a spare logic to the design of classic bicycle tubes. I know
CF and disc brakes have changed the design requirements, but I think
some custom makers deviate from the former norm just to be "modern."

And before people attack me even more, this preference isn't related to
yearning for a past era. I wouldn't have liked a curly stay Hetchins
either.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #60  
Old December 9th 19, 07:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
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Posts: 1,747
Default Bike adjustments

Tosspot writes:

On 09/12/2019 03:13, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 08 Dec 2019 17:56:58 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 08:02:36 +0700, John
B. wrote:

Not to argue about your bike size but "toe interference" or "toe
overlap" as it is called is quite common. At least one company,
"Thorn Cycles" used to mention that a bike had "toe overlap" in
their catalog. Generally more common in high performance bikes.

Yep, anything with a steep head tube angle and a short wheelbase
will have the problem. I managed to make things worse by routinely
wearing steel toe construction boots while riding. It became an
issue after several low speed crashes while cornering. On my Trek
1400, I once measured the angle on the front wheel where my toe
might overlap the front wheel. Methinks it was a fairly large 30
degrees, with the forward motion of my heel stopped by the pedal.
I just checked my Gary Fisher Tassajara:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/Gary-Fisher-Tassajara.html


and found about 5 degrees overlap (again with construction boots). I
previously tried to use toe clips to reduce the toe interference on
my Trek 1400, but couldn't find toe clips that would also work
with platform pedals (so that the waffle pattern soles will slide
easily).

?? https://www.amazon.com/bicycle-toe-c...ycle+toe+clips

I could probably have made something work with custom front fork
extensions and disk brakes, which would increase the wheelbase,
but didn't think it was worth the effort.

Sheldon mentions it and says, " Many, many people ride bicycles
with fairly severe overlap with no practical problems"

My other bicycles have a longer wheelbase and therefore less of a
toe interference problem.


I'm not up on "modern" bicycles as all my bikes are "classic" steel
frame, level top tube, etc., and they all have toe overlap and I
have never found it to be a problem as I can't imagine ever turning
the wheel far enough to hit my toe at even walking speeds,


Imo it affects commuters more who may often be using high turning
angles maneuvering around street furniture, pedestrians, junctions
etc. Also, adding mudguards doesn't help :-(


I experienced that when I added fenders to my usual bike. Fell down in
the road, once, but haven't done that again

Also, the shorter one is, the more likely toe overlap, given the usual
size wheels.


If I start out up a hill than yes, perhaps for the first revolution
or so of the crank I will be traveling slowly enough to have too turn
the wheel back and forth, far enough to hit my toe, to keep balanced
but other than that I have never had a problem.

But from your posts you seem to be an electronic sort of guy. Do
electronic guys wear hulking great boots? -- cheers,

John B.



--
 




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