Grant Petersen / Rivendell on carbon forks

Any comment here on this strong anti-carbon position? He's making up
steel forks, not expecting to sell many, and even buying back your old
carbon fork, such great risk does he think the carbon fork poses to
your health.

http://www.rivbike.com/products/show...ms-fork/50-718

Not a troll's question. I ride a glued aluminum fork, myself. I do
wonder how much fragility can be built into carbon forks while paring
more and more weight off of them, and at what place riders, even pros,
say, "No, that's just too risky."

Harry Travis
Pine Barrens of New Jersey
USA

incredulous wrote:
Any comment here on this strong anti-carbon position? He's making up
steel forks, not expecting to sell many, and even buying back your old
carbon fork, such great risk does he think the carbon fork poses to
your health.

Consider a carbon fork a wear item and replace it periodically, every
few thousand miles.

His statement "Maybe it was a manufacturing flaw that went undetected,
or a weakness that developed through use" is true, but the latter is
much more likely than the former, and the former can occur no matter
what the material (though it's less likely with steel or aluminum than
with CF).

On Jun 18, 5:13*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jun 18, 1:38*pm, incredulous wrote:

Any comment here on this strong anti-carbon position? He's making up
steel forks, not expecting to sell many, and even buying back your old
carbon fork, such great risk does he think the carbon fork poses to
your health.

http://www.rivbike.com/products/show...ms-fork/50-718

Not a troll's question. I ride a glued aluminum fork, myself. I do
wonder how much fragility can be built into carbon forks while paring
more and more weight off of them, and at what place riders, even pros,
say, "No, that's just too risky."

Harry Travis
Pine Barrens of New Jersey
USA

Carbon forks rarely fall apart, and when they do, it is because of
inadequate bonding, e.g., someone forgot to glue a leg to a crown.
That has been my experience. *I have seen steel forks break for the
same reason -- someone tack brazed the leg to the crown but did not
finish off the fork.

Aluminum forks can fall apart for the same reasons, and historically,
some were dangerous due to the joining of dissimilar materials
(Viscount/Lambert). *Modern bonded aluminum forks are everywhere and
seem to have a good service record.

The deal is that with CF, it can be damaged in a way that does not
show and then can fail later. *I ride CF forks and have since they hit
the market (starting with first generation Kestrel forks) and have
never had a set fail. *But then again, the one time I had a bad
frontal crash while riding a CF fork, I replaced the fork just to be
safe (it was a cheapie fork). *Absent damage, though, they aren't just
falling apart.

Grant is right that CF is not as safe as steel under some
circumstances (where there is latent damage). *His forks look like a
nice product at a not too outrageous price. *I like that crown (with
no internal plug stress risers) and the drop outs, too. *If I had a
steel bike that needed a fork, I'd consider that one. -- Jay Beattie.

Every con-man's story needs a grain of truth. But if crabon forks were
raging liabilities--they would get banned like Jarts were.

Peterson's replacement forks are handsome and well priced--his tactics
of marketing through FUD are loathsome.

In article
,
landotter wrote:

On Jun 18, 5:13*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jun 18, 1:38*pm, incredulous wrote:

Any comment here on this strong anti-carbon position? He's making
up steel forks, not expecting to sell many, and even buying back
your old carbon fork, such great risk does he think the carbon
fork poses to your health.

http://www.rivbike.com/products/show...ms-fork/50-718

Not a troll's question. I ride a glued aluminum fork, myself. I
do wonder how much fragility can be built into carbon forks while
paring more and more weight off of them, and at what place
riders, even pros, say, "No, that's just too risky."

Carbon forks rarely fall apart, and when they do, it is because of
inadequate bonding, e.g., someone forgot to glue a leg to a crown.
That has been my experience. *I have seen steel forks break for the
same reason -- someone tack brazed the leg to the crown but did not
finish off the fork.

Aluminum forks can fall apart for the same reasons, and
historically, some were dangerous due to the joining of dissimilar
materials (Viscount/Lambert). *Modern bonded aluminum forks are
everywhere and seem to have a good service record.

The deal is that with CF, it can be damaged in a way that does not
show and then can fail later. *I ride CF forks and have since they
hit the market (starting with first generation Kestrel forks) and
have never had a set fail. *But then again, the one time I had a
bad frontal crash while riding a CF fork, I replaced the fork just
to be safe (it was a cheapie fork). *Absent damage, though, they
aren't just falling apart.

Grant is right that CF is not as safe as steel under some
circumstances (where there is latent damage). *His forks look like
a nice product at a not too outrageous price. *I like that crown
(with no internal plug stress risers) and the drop outs, too. *If I
had a steel bike that needed a fork, I'd consider that one. -- Jay
Beattie.

Every con-man's story needs a grain of truth. But if crabon forks
were raging liabilities--they would get banned like Jarts were.

Peterson's replacement forks are handsome and well priced--his
tactics of marketing through FUD are loathsome.

Loathsome also is your tarring of Petersen- who has been known as one of
the bike industry's stand-up guys throughout his career and whose
company does a lot of philanthropy- as a "con man."

--
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, Bingo.

On 06/19/2010 11:41 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,
wrote:

On Jun 18, 5:13 pm, Jay wrote:
On Jun 18, 1:38 pm, wrote:

Any comment here on this strong anti-carbon position? He's making
up steel forks, not expecting to sell many, and even buying back
your old carbon fork, such great risk does he think the carbon
fork poses to your health.

http://www.rivbike.com/products/show...ms-fork/50-718

Not a troll's question. I ride a glued aluminum fork, myself. I
do wonder how much fragility can be built into carbon forks while
paring more and more weight off of them, and at what place
riders, even pros, say, "No, that's just too risky."

Carbon forks rarely fall apart, and when they do, it is because of
inadequate bonding, e.g., someone forgot to glue a leg to a crown.
That has been my experience. I have seen steel forks break for the
same reason -- someone tack brazed the leg to the crown but did not
finish off the fork.

Aluminum forks can fall apart for the same reasons, and
historically, some were dangerous due to the joining of dissimilar
materials (Viscount/Lambert). Modern bonded aluminum forks are
everywhere and seem to have a good service record.

The deal is that with CF, it can be damaged in a way that does not
show and then can fail later. I ride CF forks and have since they
hit the market (starting with first generation Kestrel forks) and
have never had a set fail. But then again, the one time I had a
bad frontal crash while riding a CF fork, I replaced the fork just
to be safe (it was a cheapie fork). Absent damage, though, they
aren't just falling apart.

Grant is right that CF is not as safe as steel under some
circumstances (where there is latent damage). His forks look like
a nice product at a not too outrageous price. I like that crown
(with no internal plug stress risers) and the drop outs, too. If I
had a steel bike that needed a fork, I'd consider that one. -- Jay
Beattie.

Every con-man's story needs a grain of truth. But if crabon forks
were raging liabilities--they would get banned like Jarts were.

Peterson's replacement forks are handsome and well priced--his
tactics of marketing through FUD are loathsome.

Loathsome also is your tarring of Petersen- who has been known as one of
the bike industry's stand-up guys throughout his career and whose
company does a lot of philanthropy- as a "con man."


I'd characterize Mr. Petersen as more of a "retro-grouch" - I suspect
that he honestly believes that "steel is real" even if I don't always
agree with the dangers of crabon fribe. (I wouldn't ride my Cannondale
if I felt that doing so was putting me in imminent danger of
faceplanting...) At worst, he's guilty of hyperbole...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Jun 19, 2:15*pm, landotter wrote:
On Jun 18, 5:13*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Jun 18, 1:38*pm, incredulous wrote:

Any comment here on this strong anti-carbon position? He's making up
steel forks, not expecting to sell many, and even buying back your old
carbon fork, such great risk does he think the carbon fork poses to
your health.

http://www.rivbike.com/products/show...ms-fork/50-718

Not a troll's question. I ride a glued aluminum fork, myself. I do
wonder how much fragility can be built into carbon forks while paring
more and more weight off of them, and at what place riders, even pros,
say, "No, that's just too risky."

Harry Travis
Pine Barrens of New Jersey
USA

Carbon forks rarely fall apart, and when they do, it is because of
inadequate bonding, e.g., someone forgot to glue a leg to a crown.
That has been my experience. *I have seen steel forks break for the
same reason -- someone tack brazed the leg to the crown but did not
finish off the fork.

Aluminum forks can fall apart for the same reasons, and historically,
some were dangerous due to the joining of dissimilar materials
(Viscount/Lambert). *Modern bonded aluminum forks are everywhere and
seem to have a good service record.

The deal is that with CF, it can be damaged in a way that does not
show and then can fail later. *I ride CF forks and have since they hit
the market (starting with first generation Kestrel forks) and have
never had a set fail. *But then again, the one time I had a bad
frontal crash while riding a CF fork, I replaced the fork just to be
safe (it was a cheapie fork). *Absent damage, though, they aren't just
falling apart.

Grant is right that CF is not as safe as steel under some
circumstances (where there is latent damage). *His forks look like a
nice product at a not too outrageous price. *I like that crown (with
no internal plug stress risers) and the drop outs, too. *If I had a
steel bike that needed a fork, I'd consider that one. -- Jay Beattie.

Every con-man's story needs a grain of truth. But if crabon forks were
raging liabilities--they would get banned like Jarts were.

Peterson's replacement forks are handsome and well priced--his tactics
of marketing through FUD are loathsome.

"Con-man"? "Loathsome"? You're the one trying to con us, Maxine, with
loathsome misrepresentations. All we can see about Mr Grant Petersen
is that he dislikes carbon forks, he states his reasons strongly, and
he is willing to back up his judgement with his own money by trading
in and destroying carbon forks. Seems to me that Mr Petersen is an
admirable crusader -- and you're behaving like an hysterically
overwrought schoolgirl once more.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Bicycles at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html

On Jun 19, 10:41*am, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,





*landotter wrote:
On Jun 18, 5:13 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jun 18, 1:38 pm, incredulous wrote:

Any comment here on this strong anti-carbon position? He's making
up steel forks, not expecting to sell many, and even buying back
your old carbon fork, such great risk does he think the carbon
fork poses to your health.

http://www.rivbike.com/products/show...ms-fork/50-718

Not a troll's question. I ride a glued aluminum fork, myself. I
do wonder how much fragility can be built into carbon forks while
paring more and more weight off of them, and at what place
riders, even pros, say, "No, that's just too risky."

Carbon forks rarely fall apart, and when they do, it is because of
inadequate bonding, e.g., someone forgot to glue a leg to a crown.
That has been my experience. I have seen steel forks break for the
same reason -- someone tack brazed the leg to the crown but did not
finish off the fork.

Aluminum forks can fall apart for the same reasons, and
historically, some were dangerous due to the joining of dissimilar
materials (Viscount/Lambert). Modern bonded aluminum forks are
everywhere and seem to have a good service record.

The deal is that with CF, it can be damaged in a way that does not
show and then can fail later. I ride CF forks and have since they
hit the market (starting with first generation Kestrel forks) and
have never had a set fail. But then again, the one time I had a
bad frontal crash while riding a CF fork, I replaced the fork just
to be safe (it was a cheapie fork). Absent damage, though, they
aren't just falling apart.

Grant is right that CF is not as safe as steel under some
circumstances (where there is latent damage). His forks look like
a nice product at a not too outrageous price. I like that crown
(with no internal plug stress risers) and the drop outs, too. If I
had a steel bike that needed a fork, I'd consider that one. -- Jay
Beattie.

Every con-man's story needs a grain of truth. But if crabon forks
were raging liabilities--they would get banned like Jarts were.

Peterson's replacement forks are handsome and well priced--his
tactics of marketing through FUD are loathsome.

Loathsome also is your tarring of Petersen- who has been known as one of
the bike industry's stand-up guys throughout his career and whose
company does a lot of philanthropy- as a "con man."


I called his FUD loathsome. The guy is a character, mostly admirable--
but I won't stand for more unnecessary fear injected into cycling
dialog.

When you lie about danger in order to promote your own product, you
are indeed a con man.

On 2010-06-18, Victor Kan wrote:
On Jun 18, 4:38*pm, incredulous wrote:
...and even buying back your old carbon fork...

I asked them a couple of questions, both answered in the negative:

- If I send in a CF fork with the crown race still on it, can they
transfer it to the Carbonomas fork?

- Given that they won't offer that service, can I just send them a
video of me destroying the CF fork so I don't waste time and money
boxing it up and sending it in?

So are they really destroying these "dangerous" forks or selling
second-hand carbon forks somewhere under a different name?

landotter wrote:
:On Jun 19, 10:41*am, Tim McNamara wrote:
: In article
: ,
:
:
:
:
:
: *landotter wrote:
: On Jun 18, 5:13 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
: On Jun 18, 1:38 pm, incredulous wrote:
:
: Any comment here on this strong anti-carbon position? He's making
: up steel forks, not expecting to sell many, and even buying back
: your old carbon fork, such great risk does he think the carbon
: fork poses to your health.
:
: http://www.rivbike.com/products/show...ms-fork/50-718
:
: Not a troll's question. I ride a glued aluminum fork, myself. I
: do wonder how much fragility can be built into carbon forks while
: paring more and more weight off of them, and at what place
: riders, even pros, say, "No, that's just too risky."
:
: Carbon forks rarely fall apart, and when they do, it is because of
: inadequate bonding, e.g., someone forgot to glue a leg to a crown.
: That has been my experience. I have seen steel forks break for the
: same reason -- someone tack brazed the leg to the crown but did not
: finish off the fork.
:
: Aluminum forks can fall apart for the same reasons, and
: historically, some were dangerous due to the joining of dissimilar
: materials (Viscount/Lambert). Modern bonded aluminum forks are
: everywhere and seem to have a good service record.
:
: The deal is that with CF, it can be damaged in a way that does not
: show and then can fail later. I ride CF forks and have since they
: hit the market (starting with first generation Kestrel forks) and
: have never had a set fail. But then again, the one time I had a
: bad frontal crash while riding a CF fork, I replaced the fork just
: to be safe (it was a cheapie fork). Absent damage, though, they
: aren't just falling apart.
:
: Grant is right that CF is not as safe as steel under some
: circumstances (where there is latent damage). His forks look like
: a nice product at a not too outrageous price. I like that crown
: (with no internal plug stress risers) and the drop outs, too. If I
: had a steel bike that needed a fork, I'd consider that one. -- Jay
: Beattie.
:
: Every con-man's story needs a grain of truth. But if crabon forks
: were raging liabilities--they would get banned like Jarts were.
:
: Peterson's replacement forks are handsome and well priced--his
: tactics of marketing through FUD are loathsome.
:
: Loathsome also is your tarring of Petersen- who has been known as one of
: the bike industry's stand-up guys throughout his career and whose
: company does a lot of philanthropy- as a "con man."


:I called his FUD loathsome. The guy is a character, mostly admirable--
:but I won't stand for more unnecessary fear injected into cycling
:dialog.

Have you paid attention to the problem trek is having with their
carbon forks? If you torque the stem bolts to enough preload that
they don't fall out (and cause your bars to fall off), they break.
Trek is specifically instructing people to install their stems so that
the bolts fall out. Now that's a safe product!




--
sig 89

On Jun 19, 12:54*pm, Ben C wrote:
So are they really destroying these "dangerous" forks or selling
second-hand carbon forks somewhere under a different name?

They (jokingly?) said they might make a coat rack or something out of
the CF forks they get as trade ins.

My guess is they might also have more sword fights with them, but this
time carbon vs. carbon rather than carbon vs. steel.