Dropout adjuster screws

Op 4-12-2010 19:30, Nate Nagel schreef:
On 12/04/2010 01:14 PM, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Andrew Muzi wrote:

Get Vertical dropouts and be done with the fore and aft,
unsupported knurled jam nuts that eat divots in the dropout and
break axles.

The problem you describe is 100% solvable without crippling a bike
frame with vertical dropouts. It is much easier to use a hub with
an oversized axle, or even just oversized axle locknuts, than it
is to make vertical dropouts function properly with gearhubs,
single-speed hubs, coaster brakes, or (God help us) fixed gears.

A rear derailleur has the sophistication of a can opener. A front
derailleur has the sophistication of chopsticks. You might not
mind limiting your bike to these sad options, but others would be
better served in having a bike frame that can escape such a
predicament at will.

I know that in my own shop, a used road bike frame with horizontal
dropouts is worth about twice as much as one with vertical slots.
And it will sell sooner.

I don't understand what you find "crippling" about vertical
dropouts. I see only advantages and I believe most avid bicyclists
use derailleur gears with standard10mm diameter hollow axles. I
also don't understand what the chainwheel derailleur has to do with
this.

As I mentioned, I broke many rear axles before switching to
vertical dropouts and broke too many longitudinally slotted rear
dropouts caused by axle flexing in longitudinal axle slots that had
worn deeply gouged wear grooves fro the hardened Campagnolo knurled
jam nuts, so deep that it required beating on the tire with the
fist to dislodge the axle when removing a rear wheel.

Maybe you can explain what advantages you perceive for most riders
using dropouts with longitudinal slots... that are nearly gone from
the market for their failings.

It's quicker and cheaper to set up a scrounged urban fixie with
horizontal ends, as Chalo so trendily points out.

I'm not moved by the need of "scrounged urban fixie" bicycles to be
equipped to make the "crippling" and ease of assembly aspects to
benefit of longitudinal slots... that are in themselves crippling for
riders with QR axles for hill climbing chain tension and gouging
Campagnolo jam nuts.

With a rear derailleur, vertical ends make more sense.

... or with any QR axle.

Jobst Brandt

I will agree with this. My favorite bike has horizontal dropouts, but
that is actually a drawback not a positive for my use. I had to find
some "vintage" chromed steel QRs to keep the rear wheel from cocking in
the frame when climbing or accelerating quickly. Not a problem on my
other bike with generic alu QR's!

nate



Generic alu QR? All my QR have at least steel insert where it matters.

Lou

On 12/04/2010 01:35 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 4-12-2010 19:30, Nate Nagel schreef:
On 12/04/2010 01:14 PM, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Andrew Muzi wrote:

Get Vertical dropouts and be done with the fore and aft,
unsupported knurled jam nuts that eat divots in the dropout and
break axles.

The problem you describe is 100% solvable without crippling a bike
frame with vertical dropouts. It is much easier to use a hub with
an oversized axle, or even just oversized axle locknuts, than it
is to make vertical dropouts function properly with gearhubs,
single-speed hubs, coaster brakes, or (God help us) fixed gears.

A rear derailleur has the sophistication of a can opener. A front
derailleur has the sophistication of chopsticks. You might not
mind limiting your bike to these sad options, but others would be
better served in having a bike frame that can escape such a
predicament at will.

I know that in my own shop, a used road bike frame with horizontal
dropouts is worth about twice as much as one with vertical slots.
And it will sell sooner.

I don't understand what you find "crippling" about vertical
dropouts. I see only advantages and I believe most avid bicyclists
use derailleur gears with standard10mm diameter hollow axles. I
also don't understand what the chainwheel derailleur has to do with
this.

As I mentioned, I broke many rear axles before switching to
vertical dropouts and broke too many longitudinally slotted rear
dropouts caused by axle flexing in longitudinal axle slots that had
worn deeply gouged wear grooves fro the hardened Campagnolo knurled
jam nuts, so deep that it required beating on the tire with the
fist to dislodge the axle when removing a rear wheel.

Maybe you can explain what advantages you perceive for most riders
using dropouts with longitudinal slots... that are nearly gone from
the market for their failings.

It's quicker and cheaper to set up a scrounged urban fixie with
horizontal ends, as Chalo so trendily points out.

I'm not moved by the need of "scrounged urban fixie" bicycles to be
equipped to make the "crippling" and ease of assembly aspects to
benefit of longitudinal slots... that are in themselves crippling for
riders with QR axles for hill climbing chain tension and gouging
Campagnolo jam nuts.

With a rear derailleur, vertical ends make more sense.

... or with any QR axle.

Jobst Brandt

I will agree with this. My favorite bike has horizontal dropouts, but
that is actually a drawback not a positive for my use. I had to find
some "vintage" chromed steel QRs to keep the rear wheel from cocking in
the frame when climbing or accelerating quickly. Not a problem on my
other bike with generic alu QR's!

nate



Generic alu QR? All my QR have at least steel insert where it matters.

Lou

Neither the QR's on my Cannondale (unlabeled ones, presumably the ones
that came with the bike, with "Gipiemme" wheels - which have been
replaced BTW) nor the few Shimano ones that I have from 105-level hubs
would keep the rear in place on my Trek. However, some old school
Dura-Ace QRs solved the problem nicely.

I don't recall which ones may or may not have had steel inserts, but I'm
pretty sure that at least some of them didn't.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"AMuzi" wrote in message
...
Jobst Brandt wrote:
Chalo Colina wrote:

Get Vertical dropouts and be done with the fore and aft,
unsupported knurled jam nuts that eat divots in the dropout and
break axles.

The problem you describe is 100% solvable without crippling a bike
frame with vertical dropouts. It is much easier to use a hub with
an oversized axle, or even just oversized axle locknuts, than it is
to make vertical dropouts function properly with gearhubs,
single-speed hubs, coaster brakes, or (God help us) fixed gears.

A rear derailleur has the sophistication of a can opener. A front
derailleur has the sophistication of chopsticks. You might not mind
limiting your bike to these sad options, but others would be better
served in having a bike frame that can escape such a predicament at
will.

I know that in my own shop, a used road bike frame with horizontal
dropouts is worth about twice as much as one with vertical slots.
And it will sell sooner.

I don't understand what you find "crippling" about vertical dropouts.
I see only advantages and I believe most avid bicyclists use
derailleur gears with standard 10mm diameter hollow axles. I also
don't understand what the chainwheel derailleur has to do with this.

As I mentioned, I broke many rear axles before switching to vertical
dropouts and broke too many longitudinally slotted rear dropouts
caused by axle flexing in longitudinal axle slots that had worn deeply
gouged wear grooves fro the hardened Campagnolo knurled jam nuts, so
deep that it required beating on the tire with the fist to dislodge
the axle when removing a rear wheel.

Maybe you can explain what advantages you perceive for most riders
using dropouts with longitudinal slots... that are nearly gone from
the market for their failings.


It's quicker and cheaper to set up a scrounged urban fixie with horizontal
ends, as Chalo so trendily points out.

With a rear derailleur, vertical ends make more sense.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

All of the above make more sense than what I saw a few days ago - a
derailleur bike with rear-facing track dropouts.
Maybe that's the next hip thing?
Kerry

On Dec 4, 1:17*pm, "Kerry Montgomery" wrote:
"AMuzi" wrote in message

...









Jobst Brandt wrote:
Chalo Colina wrote:

Get Vertical dropouts and be done with the fore and aft,
unsupported knurled jam nuts that eat divots in the dropout and
break axles.

The problem you describe is 100% solvable without crippling a bike
frame with vertical dropouts. *It is much easier to use a hub with
an oversized axle, or even just oversized axle locknuts, than it is
to make vertical dropouts function properly with gearhubs,
single-speed hubs, coaster brakes, or (God help us) fixed gears.

A rear derailleur has the sophistication of a can opener. *A front
derailleur has the sophistication of chopsticks. *You might not mind
limiting your bike to these sad options, but others would be better
served in having a bike frame that can escape such a predicament at
will.

I know that in my own shop, a used road bike frame with horizontal
dropouts is worth about twice as much as one with vertical slots.
And it will sell sooner.

I don't understand what you find "crippling" about vertical dropouts.
I see only advantages and I believe most avid bicyclists use
derailleur gears with standard 10mm diameter hollow axles. *I also
don't understand what the chainwheel derailleur has to do with this.

As I mentioned, I broke many rear axles before switching to vertical
dropouts and broke too many longitudinally slotted rear dropouts
caused by axle flexing in longitudinal axle slots that had worn deeply
gouged wear grooves fro the hardened Campagnolo knurled jam nuts, so
deep that it required beating on the tire with the fist to dislodge
the axle when removing a rear wheel.

Maybe you can explain what advantages you perceive for most riders
using dropouts with longitudinal slots... that are nearly gone from
the market for their failings.

It's quicker and cheaper to set up a scrounged urban fixie with horizontal
ends, as Chalo so trendily points out.

With a rear derailleur, vertical ends make more sense.

--
Andrew Muzi
*www.yellowjersey.org/
*Open every day since 1 April, 1971

All of the above make more sense than what I saw a few days ago - a
derailleur bike with rear-facing track dropouts.
Maybe that's the next hip thing?
Kerry

Like a Surly Karate monkey? In its defense, the rear facing drops
allow for the use of tugnuts when set up with a single rear cog.

On Dec 4, 3:54*am, Chalo wrote:
Rik O'Shea wrote:

are dropout adjuster screws required for semi-vertical dropouts?

Never required, ever. *If I had a bike equipped with them, I'd remove
them both and discard them.

Do so before they rust solidly in place! I've got a nice old Reynolds
531 frame waiting to be built up, but the adjuster screws rusted in
place. I'll probably end up just snapping them off.

For those who want something to serve their original purpose, i.e.
quick replacement of the axle in an exactly consistent position, I
once found some axle stops stamped out of flat steel, more or less.
Each was a two part device connected by a screw, with one part sitting
inboard of the dropout, the other part outboard. Slide to proper
position then tighten the screw to pinch the dropout and hold the
clamp in place.

- Frank Krygowski

dustoyevsky wrote:

I haven't used one myself, but I hear good reports IRT the ENO hub
used for fixed gear in vertical and for that matter, horizontal DO's
or track rear fork ends. Couldn't be much "easier" from what I've
seen; only slightly more complicated than OS axles and/or nuts.

That would sort out the folks who want a fix or freewheel single speed
without a hub brake, think $175 for a single speed hub is a fair
price, feel like building or commissioning their own custom wheels,
and would understand how to use such a hub. In other words, not very
many people. Certainly many fewer than the number of folks who could
benefit substantially from a gearhub or a coaster brake.

Chalo wrote:

A rear derailleur has the sophistication of a can opener.

What more do you need to open a can?

*A front derailleur has the sophistication of chopsticks.

"Just takes a little practice" g.

*You might not mind
limiting your bike to these sad options,

I don't think they're "sad" at all.

What can I say? I'm spoiled by bike drivetrains and brakes that
always work and need basically no maintenance or replacement parts
other than the chain. Trying to integrate these things with a frame
that has vertical slots either doesn't work at all, or else results in
a fiddly system that needs just as much intervention as a derailleur
bike.

I know that in my own shop, a used road bike frame with horizontal
dropouts is worth about twice as much as one with vertical slots. *And
it will sell sooner.

Because, for one thing, those are "easier" and cheaper to set up for
fixed or SS use?

Yes, that's right. Plus they offer the options of coaster brakes,
gearhubs, and variable tire clearance/chainstay length. And in spite
of all this, they can use derailleurs too! Fancy that!

Chalo

AMuzi wrote:

It's quicker and cheaper to set up a scrounged urban fixie
with horizontal ends, as Chalo so trendily points out.

Fixies, yes. How I hate them. But also:

Gearhubs, which I stock on new bikes
Coaster brakes, which I have been selling to some hipst0rz
Freewheel single speed, which is the essential ATX bike of the moment

All of which serve the non-enthusiast rider much better than a finicky
and maintenance-intensive derailleur system. If I added together the
folks who "just leave it in one gear" with the ones who tolerate
horribly misadjusted shifting (up to and including destroying their
rear wheels with chains raked across the spokes), that would probably
be a majority of my customers who own derailleur bikes.

Derailleur shifting, like manual spark advance, is not for everybody.
We here get along with it, but we are .tech after all.

With a rear derailleur, vertical ends make more sense.

Except that a frame that makes sense for everything else can also use
a derailleur if desired. The converse is not true.

Chalo

Lou Holtman wrote:

Nate Nagel schreef:

I had to find
some "vintage" chromed steel QRs to keep the rear wheel from cocking in
the frame when climbing or accelerating quickly. Not a problem on my
other bike with generic alu QR's!

Generic alu QR? All my QR have at least steel insert where it matters.

Cheap US-market QR skewers have aluminum-on-plastic cams. This folly
has been made possible by vertical dropouts! As for me, I have
customers come in regularly, a couple a week on average, asking for
nutted rear axles to be transplanted in because their wheels slip. By
the time they get to that point, they usually can't be persuaded just
to use a good QR skewer and tighten it correctly.

Chalo

Kerry Montgomery wrote:

All of the above make more sense than what I saw a few days ago - a
derailleur bike with rear-facing track dropouts.

Yeah, that's dumb. I blame crap QR skewers for that phenomenon. In
turn, I blame vertical dropouts for crap QR skewers.

Chalo

On Dec 4, 8:45*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 4, 3:54*am, Chalo wrote:

Rik O'Shea wrote:

are dropout adjuster screws required for semi-vertical dropouts?

Never required, ever. *If I had a bike equipped with them, I'd remove
them both and discard them.

Do so before they rust solidly in place! *I've got a nice old Reynolds
531 frame waiting to be built up, but the adjuster screws rusted in
place. *I'll probably end up just snapping them off.

I had exactly this problem, Plus-Gas to the rescue, no problem.


For those who want something to serve their original purpose, i.e.
quick replacement of the axle in an exactly consistent position, I
once found some axle stops stamped out of flat steel, more or less.
Each was a two part device connected by a screw, with one part sitting
inboard of the dropout, the other part outboard. *Slide to proper
position then tighten the screw to pinch the dropout and hold the
clamp in place.

- Frank Krygowski