Axle slipping when tightening track hub axle nut

I'm experiencing a problem when tightening the axle nuts on a new rear
track hub. The hub is a rear Suzue Pro Max carbon-fibre track hub which
uses a 10mm axle and good quality, captive washer track nuts.

As the rear axle nut starts to snug against the rear dropouts, the hub
axle begins to turn in the dropout, causing the whole hub to creep
backwards in the dropout. Thsi makes it extremely difficult to get the
chain tension right - it also seems to be causing the locknut and cone
on one side of the hub to start turning relative to the axle, which
messes up the bearing adjustment on the hub.

I've tried tightening the locknut against the cone so that its really
tight, but the bearings still go out of adjustment. I've tried
degreasing the rear dropouts and the surfaces of the serrated locknut
and axle nuts, and lubricated the threads of the axle to try to
dissuade the axle from turning but the problem persists.

The problem seems to definitely be with the hub as it happens on both
my track frames - one with regular (and well-roughened) steel dropouts,
the other an alloy frame with stainless steel dropout inserts - and my
other set of wheels with a D-Ace track hub don't have the problem in
either frame.

Is this a particular problem with Suzue track hubs and if so does
anyone have any suggestions as to how it can be solved? I'm wondering
about fitting a pair of serrated locknuts from a Shimano D-Ace track
hub onto the Suzues, as my guess is that these are the likely
culprits...

Thanks,

mickster

"mickster" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm experiencing a problem when tightening the axle nuts on a new rear
track hub. The hub is a rear Suzue Pro Max carbon-fibre track hub
which
uses a 10mm axle and good quality, captive washer track nuts.

As the rear axle nut starts to snug against the rear dropouts, the hub
axle begins to turn in the dropout, causing the whole hub to creep
backwards in the dropout. Thsi makes it extremely difficult to get the
chain tension right - it also seems to be causing the locknut and cone
on one side of the hub to start turning relative to the axle, which
messes up the bearing adjustment on the hub.

I've tried tightening the locknut against the cone so that its really
tight, but the bearings still go out of adjustment. I've tried
degreasing the rear dropouts and the surfaces of the serrated locknut
and axle nuts, and lubricated the threads of the axle to try to
dissuade the axle from turning but the problem persists.

The problem seems to definitely be with the hub as it happens on both
my track frames - one with regular (and well-roughened) steel
dropouts,
the other an alloy frame with stainless steel dropout inserts - and my
other set of wheels with a D-Ace track hub don't have the problem in
either frame.

Is this a particular problem with Suzue track hubs and if so does
anyone have any suggestions as to how it can be solved? I'm wondering
about fitting a pair of serrated locknuts from a Shimano D-Ace track
hub onto the Suzues, as my guess is that these are the likely
culprits...

This sounds like the axle locknuts do not have sufficient serrations to
grip the inside faces of the dropouts. You can try alternating the
tightening of the axle nuts by small increments from drive to non-drive
side up to the required tightness.

Phil H

mickster wrote:

I'm experiencing a problem when tightening the axle nuts on a new rear
track hub. The hub is a rear Suzue Pro Max carbon-fibre track hub which
uses a 10mm axle and good quality, captive washer track nuts.

As the rear axle nut starts to snug against the rear dropouts, the hub
axle begins to turn in the dropout, causing the whole hub to creep
backwards in the dropout. Thsi makes it extremely difficult to get the
chain tension right - it also seems to be causing the locknut and cone
on one side of the hub to start turning relative to the axle, which
messes up the bearing adjustment on the hub.

I've tried tightening the locknut against the cone so that its really
tight, but the bearings still go out of adjustment. I've tried
degreasing the rear dropouts and the surfaces of the serrated locknut
and axle nuts, and lubricated the threads of the axle to try to
dissuade the axle from turning but the problem persists.

The problem seems to definitely be with the hub as it happens on both
my track frames - one with regular (and well-roughened) steel dropouts,
the other an alloy frame with stainless steel dropout inserts - and my
other set of wheels with a D-Ace track hub don't have the problem in
either frame.

Is this a particular problem with Suzue track hubs and if so does
anyone have any suggestions as to how it can be solved? I'm wondering
about fitting a pair of serrated locknuts from a Shimano D-Ace track
hub onto the Suzues, as my guess is that these are the likely
culprits...

As Phil said, the locknuts aren't biting sufficiently. I'd add that
some hubs solve this problem quite elegantly; Goldtec use a
large-diameter axle which is ground flat at the ends so it just fits the
track end and can't rotate. Their "locknuts" (they use cartridge
bearings) are nitrided and are exceptionally sharp-toothed.

"Phil Holman" piholmanc@yourservice wrote in message
...

"mickster" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm experiencing a problem when tightening the axle nuts on a new rear
track hub. The hub is a rear Suzue Pro Max carbon-fibre track hub which
uses a 10mm axle and good quality, captive washer track nuts.

As the rear axle nut starts to snug against the rear dropouts, the hub
axle begins to turn in the dropout, causing the whole hub to creep
backwards in the dropout. Thsi makes it extremely difficult to get the
chain tension right - it also seems to be causing the locknut and cone
on one side of the hub to start turning relative to the axle, which
messes up the bearing adjustment on the hub.

I've tried tightening the locknut against the cone so that its really
tight, but the bearings still go out of adjustment. I've tried
degreasing the rear dropouts and the surfaces of the serrated locknut
and axle nuts, and lubricated the threads of the axle to try to
dissuade the axle from turning but the problem persists.

The problem seems to definitely be with the hub as it happens on both
my track frames - one with regular (and well-roughened) steel dropouts,
the other an alloy frame with stainless steel dropout inserts - and my
other set of wheels with a D-Ace track hub don't have the problem in
either frame.

Is this a particular problem with Suzue track hubs and if so does
anyone have any suggestions as to how it can be solved? I'm wondering
about fitting a pair of serrated locknuts from a Shimano D-Ace track
hub onto the Suzues, as my guess is that these are the likely
culprits...

This sounds like the axle locknuts do not have sufficient serrations to
grip the inside faces of the dropouts. You can try alternating the
tightening of the axle nuts by small increments from drive to non-drive
side up to the required tightness.

Phil H

Ditto what Phil stated, but you might find using a Chain tensioner device
like the Surley Tugnut
http://www.performancebike.com/shop/...tegory_ID=5132
very useful too. I have had problems when overpowering powering the
crankarms with the axle slipping forward. So having something to prevent
this works well too. Besides it makes it easier to tighten the axles without
over torquing the axle nuts.
There are several different makes of these chain tensioner devices out there
too.

Earl Bollinger wrote:
Ditto what Phil stated, but you might find using a Chain tensioner device
like the Surley Tugnut
http://www.performancebike.com/shop/...tegory_ID=5132
very useful too. I have had problems when overpowering powering the
crankarms with the axle slipping forward. So having something to prevent
this works well too. Besides it makes it easier to tighten the axles without
over torquing the axle nuts.
There are several different makes of these chain tensioner devices out there
too.

Any idea if those things work with forward-facing horizontal dropouts?

My guess is 'no' but it'd be awesome if they did.
TIA
\\paul

mickster wrote:
I'm experiencing a problem when tightening the axle nuts on a new rear
track hub. The hub is a rear Suzue Pro Max carbon-fibre track hub which
uses a 10mm axle and good quality, captive washer track nuts.

As the rear axle nut starts to snug against the rear dropouts, the hub
axle begins to turn in the dropout, causing the whole hub to creep
backwards in the dropout. Thsi makes it extremely difficult to get the
chain tension right - it also seems to be causing the locknut and cone
on one side of the hub to start turning relative to the axle, which
messes up the bearing adjustment on the hub.

I've tried tightening the locknut against the cone so that its really
tight, but the bearings still go out of adjustment. I've tried
degreasing the rear dropouts and the surfaces of the serrated locknut
and axle nuts, and lubricated the threads of the axle to try to
dissuade the axle from turning but the problem persists.

The problem seems to definitely be with the hub as it happens on both
my track frames - one with regular (and well-roughened) steel dropouts,
the other an alloy frame with stainless steel dropout inserts - and my
other set of wheels with a D-Ace track hub don't have the problem in
either frame.

Is this a particular problem with Suzue track hubs and if so does
anyone have any suggestions as to how it can be solved? I'm wondering
about fitting a pair of serrated locknuts from a Shimano D-Ace track
hub onto the Suzues, as my guess is that these are the likely
culprits...

Thanks,

mickster

There's a good chance your dropouts aren't aligned right. If not,
tightening the axle nut will force the hub to realign relative to the
dropout. If only one side is out of whack, tighten the other side
first, then the bad side won't affect the chain tension as it
can't/won't move. If they're both out of alignment, you need to have
them realigned. Actually, you should have that done if only one is
bad.

If the dropouts are parallel to each other and aligned with the BB, AND
you're using good quality axle nuts (as you indicated you are) there
should be no forces to account for the axle to move upon tightening the
axle nut.

S.

If your locknuts are slipping, then you have a locknut/cone problem.
If you slack the locknut, is it dry? Drop a little oil on the threads
under the locknut/cone. Also your always going to have the tighten the
non-drive side first to get the chain tention correct, then after the
drive side is locked into the frame you might have to slack the
non-drive side to center the wheel. I have built many wheels with
Suzue hubs and have never had that problem.
-Tim

mickster wrote:

I'm experiencing a problem when tightening the axle nuts on a new rear
track hub. The hub is a rear Suzue Pro Max carbon-fibre track hub which
uses a 10mm axle and good quality, captive washer track nuts.

As the rear axle nut starts to snug against the rear dropouts, the hub
axle begins to turn in the dropout, causing the whole hub to creep
backwards in the dropout. Thsi makes it extremely difficult to get the
chain tension right - it also seems to be causing the locknut and cone
on one side of the hub to start turning relative to the axle, which
messes up the bearing adjustment on the hub.

I've tried tightening the locknut against the cone so that its really
tight, but the bearings still go out of adjustment. I've tried
degreasing the rear dropouts and the surfaces of the serrated locknut
and axle nuts, and lubricated the threads of the axle to try to
dissuade the axle from turning but the problem persists.

The problem seems to definitely be with the hub as it happens on both
my track frames - one with regular (and well-roughened) steel dropouts,
the other an alloy frame with stainless steel dropout inserts - and my
other set of wheels with a D-Ace track hub don't have the problem in
either frame.

Is this a particular problem with Suzue track hubs and if so does
anyone have any suggestions as to how it can be solved? I'm wondering
about fitting a pair of serrated locknuts from a Shimano D-Ace track
hub onto the Suzues, as my guess is that these are the likely
culprits...


Poor prep. Open the hub far enough to get oil on the axle
where cone and locknut will lock. On both sides. Fill the
bearing space with grease while you are there. Get some oil
in the tracknut where the ring spins. Mostly, get some lube
on that axle before tightening the axle nuts.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In article , Paul Hobson
) wrote:
Earl Bollinger wrote:
Ditto what Phil stated, but you might find using a Chain tensioner device
like the Surley Tugnut
http://www.performancebike.com/shop/...tegory_ID=5132
very useful too. I have had problems when overpowering powering the
crankarms with the axle slipping forward. So having something to prevent
this works well too. Besides it makes it easier to tighten the axles without
over torquing the axle nuts.
There are several different makes of these chain tensioner devices out there
too.

Any idea if those things work with forward-facing horizontal dropouts?

My guess is 'no' but it'd be awesome if they did.

Yes, they /do/ work with horizontal dropouts. It's a bit of a faff if
the P+nct+r+ Fairy comes a-visiting, but that's better than having the
rear wheel attempting to escape...

--
Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
We had that Maurits C. Escher in to do some building work once. I
haven't been able to leave the house since.

mickster wrote:
I'm experiencing a problem when tightening the axle nuts on a new rear
track hub. The hub is a rear Suzue Pro Max carbon-fibre track hub which
uses a 10mm axle and good quality, captive washer track nuts.

As the rear axle nut starts to snug against the rear dropouts, the hub
axle begins to turn in the dropout, causing the whole hub to creep
backwards in the dropout. Thsi makes it extremely difficult to get the
chain tension right - it also seems to be causing the locknut and cone
on one side of the hub to start turning relative to the axle, which
messes up the bearing adjustment on the hub.

Hold the wheel aft. tighten the left side just a smidge, then the
right, holding the wheel back. It will tighten w/o moving, just gotta
hold the wheel aft. The axle nuts have the integrated rotating washer.
a wee bit of oil onto the washer will help also. Make sure the locknut
for adjusting the cones/bearings is really tight. Adjustment should not
go away as you tighten the wheel. Probably oughta take the whole thing
apart and add grease, even tho it's cart bearings.

I've tried tightening the locknut against the cone so that its really
tight, but the bearings still go out of adjustment. I've tried
degreasing the rear dropouts and the surfaces of the serrated locknut
and axle nuts, and lubricated the threads of the axle to try to
dissuade the axle from turning but the problem persists.

The problem seems to definitely be with the hub as it happens on both
my track frames - one with regular (and well-roughened) steel dropouts,
the other an alloy frame with stainless steel dropout inserts - and my
other set of wheels with a D-Ace track hub don't have the problem in
either frame.

Is this a particular problem with Suzue track hubs and if so does
anyone have any suggestions as to how it can be solved? I'm wondering
about fitting a pair of serrated locknuts from a Shimano D-Ace track
hub onto the Suzues, as my guess is that these are the likely
culprits...

Thanks,

mickster