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#151
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Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?
On May 9, 8:49*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On May 8, 1:29 pm, Jay Beattie wrote: I rode and raced without a helmet at various times .. and yes, I did not die of a head injury. Not surprising. *We had over 100 years of bike racing without helmets, with fatal head injuries always being extremely rare. Think of the tens of millions of miles ridden in the Tour de France since its inception. *IIRC, there were a total of three deaths. *One was drug- induced heart failure. *One was due to head injury (sliding into a concrete post at a speed far beyond helmet certification standards), one possibly due to head injury (falling into a ravine, ditto). There would probably be more head injury fatalities if all those racers had walked the course! Why only death statistics. Again, I never said that helmets will prevent death. I'm talking about head injury including scalp wounds: "Despite his successes, Merckx was not immune to injury and accident as this race in 1969 illustrates. Merckx was in a derny-paced exhibition race toward the end of the season. These are races in which cyclists each follow their own motorcycle pacer around an oval track. A pacer and cyclist fell in front of Merckx forcing Merckx and his pacer to fall. Merckxs pacer was killed instantly. Merckx was knocked unconscious and was bleeding heavily from a head wound. Merckx suffered a concussion and required stitches to close the gaping wound." Hey, no gaping head wound if you wear a hardshell helmet. I think he was a hairnet guy on the track.-- Jay Beattie. |
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#152
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Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?
On 5/9/2011 2:26 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On May 9, 8:49 am, Frank wrote: On May 8, 1:29 pm, Jay wrote: I rode and raced without a helmet at various times .. and yes, I did not die of a head injury. Not surprising. We had over 100 years of bike racing without helmets, with fatal head injuries always being extremely rare. Think of the tens of millions of miles ridden in the Tour de France since its inception. IIRC, there were a total of three deaths. One was drug- induced heart failure. One was due to head injury (sliding into a concrete post at a speed far beyond helmet certification standards), one possibly due to head injury (falling into a ravine, ditto). There would probably be more head injury fatalities if all those racers had walked the course! Why only death statistics. I'm pretty sure that you know why. |
#153
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Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?
In article
, Frank Krygowski wrote: On May 9, 4:31Â*pm, Michael Press wrote: In article , Â*Frank Krygowski wrote: Not surprising. Â*We had over 100 years of bike racing without helmets, with fatal head injuries always being extremely rare. Think of the tens of millions of miles ridden in the Tour de France since its inception. Â*IIRC, there were a total of three deaths. Â*One was drug- induced heart failure. Fail. Stop spreading that rumor. The death had nothing to do with drugs. Unfortunately everybody says so. He died because the race organizers severely restricted the amount of water a racer could have, and the racer died from dehydration. Really? That's the first time I've ever heard that version. Can you give the source? Does not matter. This version is outvoted. Speed kills, but not right away. A heroin overdose can kill right away. So can severe dehydration. -- Michael Press |
#154
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Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?
On May 9, 5:26*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On May 9, 8:49*am, Frank Krygowski wrote: *We had over 100 years of bike racing without helmets, with fatal head injuries always being extremely rare. Think of the tens of millions of miles ridden in the Tour de France since its inception. *IIRC, there were a total of three deaths. *One was drug- induced heart failure. *One was due to head injury (sliding into a concrete post at a speed far beyond helmet certification standards), one possibly due to head injury (falling into a ravine, ditto). There would probably be more head injury fatalities if all those racers had walked the course! Why only death statistics. *Again, I never said that helmets will prevent death. *I'm talking about head injury including scalp wounds: "Despite his successes, Merckx was not immune to injury and accident as this race in 1969 illustrates. Merckx was in a derny-paced exhibition race toward the end of the season. These are races in which cyclists each follow their own motorcycle pacer around an oval track. A pacer and cyclist fell in front of Merckx forcing Merckx and his pacer to fall. Merckxs pacer was killed instantly. Merckx was knocked unconscious and was bleeding heavily from a head wound. Merckx suffered a concussion and required stitches to close the gaping wound." Hey, no gaping head wound if you wear a hardshell helmet. I think he was a hairnet guy on the track. Why only death statistics? The main reason is that they are kept very carefully. Another important reason is that there is little doubt or debate about whether a death has occurred. This prevents silliness like the recent Portland study that classified a bicycling injury as "serious" if any medical person had looked at it - remember? One of the researchers specifically said a skinned knee could be counted as "serious" if the cyclist showed it to a doctor. And keep in mind that the anecdote (not data) you posted was a _track_ event, one of the situations I already named as more likely to benefit from helmet use. Another was aggressive mountain biking, so don't bother to follow it up with a mountain biking anecdote, OK? I've been saying ordinary riding does not impose an unusual risk of serious head injury. I brought up the Tour as evidence that even road racing at that level doesn't seem very risky. We could keep talking about road racing for a while if you like, but my real point was about ordinary, non-competitive riding. Riding for recreation. Riding for utility transportation. Commuting. Touring. But if you've got information showing a high rate of "serious" head injuries in, say, road racing cyclists before 1975, and large reductions in that rate once styrofoam helmets came into use, heck, let's see them! Meanwhile, while not properly documented, this guy claims to have some comparative data. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIurRqi6ySw - Frank Krygowski |
#155
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Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?
In article
, Frank Krygowski wrote: On May 9, 4:31Â*pm, Michael Press wrote: In article , Â*Frank Krygowski wrote: Not surprising. Â*We had over 100 years of bike racing without helmets, with fatal head injuries always being extremely rare. Think of the tens of millions of miles ridden in the Tour de France since its inception. Â*IIRC, there were a total of three deaths. Â*One was drug- induced heart failure. Fail. Stop spreading that rumor. The death had nothing to do with drugs. Unfortunately everybody says so. He died because the race organizers severely restricted the amount of water a racer could have, and the racer died from dehydration. Really? That's the first time I've ever heard that version. Can you give the source? Can you support your version? -- Michael Press |
#156
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Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?
On May 10, 4:45*am, Michael Press wrote:
In article , *Frank Krygowski wrote: On May 9, 4:31*pm, Michael Press wrote: In article , *Frank Krygowski wrote: Not surprising. *We had over 100 years of bike racing without helmets, with fatal head injuries always being extremely rare. Think of the tens of millions of miles ridden in the Tour de France since its inception. *IIRC, there were a total of three deaths. *One was drug- induced heart failure. Fail. Stop spreading that rumor. The death had nothing to do with drugs. Unfortunately everybody says so. He died because the race organizers severely restricted the amount of water a racer could have, and the racer died from dehydration. Really? *That's the first time I've ever heard that version. *Can you give the source? Can you support your version? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Simpson "Tom Simpson (30 November 193713 July 1967) was the most successful English road racing cyclist of the post-war years. He infamously died of exhaustion on the slopes of Mont Ventoux during the 13th stage of the Tour de France in 1967. The post mortem found that he had taken amphetamines and alcohol, a diuretic combination which proved fatal when combined with the heat, the hard climb of the Ventoux and a stomach complaint." This isn't a major point of mine either way. He certainly didn't die of a head injury. - Frank Krygowski |
#157
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Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?
In article
, Frank Krygowski wrote: On May 10, 4:45Â*am, Michael Press wrote: In article , Â*Frank Krygowski wrote: On May 9, 4:31Â*pm, Michael Press wrote: In article , Â*Frank Krygowski wrote: Not surprising. Â*We had over 100 years of bike racing without helmets, with fatal head injuries always being extremely rare. Think of the tens of millions of miles ridden in the Tour de France since its inception. Â*IIRC, there were a total of three deaths. Â*One was drug- induced heart failure. Fail. Stop spreading that rumor. The death had nothing to do with drugs. Unfortunately everybody says so. He died because the race organizers severely restricted the amount of water a racer could have, and the racer died from dehydration. Really? Â*That's the first time I've ever heard that version. Â*Can you give the source? Can you support your version? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Simpson "Tom Simpson (30 November 1937â13 July 1967) was the most successful English road racing cyclist of the post-war years. He infamously died of exhaustion on the slopes of Mont Ventoux during the 13th stage of the Tour de France in 1967. The post mortem found that he had taken amphetamines and alcohol, a diuretic combination which proved fatal when combined with the heat, the hard climb of the Ventoux and a stomach complaint." This isn't a major point of mine either way. He certainly didn't die of a head injury. Why doesn't the article mention the severe restriction on water intake imposed by the race organizers? He died of overheating induced by dehydration. -- Michael Press |
#158
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Should you wear a bicycle foam hat while riding a recumbent?
On 5/9/2011 9:20 AM, SMS wrote:
On 5/5/2011 6:24 PM, Tom Lake wrote: On Thu, 05 May 2011 18:07:45 -0500, in rec.bicycles.tech TÂșm ShermÂȘnâą " wrote: Studies have shown that motorists pass closer to lidded cyclists than those riding sans foam bicycle hat. Dr. Mengele, where art thou? As history shows, the "obvious" can be scientifically wrong. The answer is obvious to anyone who is rational and has bothered to study the issue - bicycle foam hats provide bump and scrape protection, but do not significantly reduce serious brain injuries and deaths. Why boast of your ignorance? Well, again, there simply aren't any data to support that. There aren't any to support that helmets *do* reduce closed head trauma, either because the research design, as you pointed out, does not allow such a conclusion. And of course "studies" have shown is not true. It's "study" not "studies" and calling it a "study" is a huge stretch. And even if it is actually true, and there's no evidence of it, the "study" did NOT show any increase in the accident rate by motorists passing closer. It has been my experience that the best way to "prove" something is to find what the person really believes to be true. Remember the "proven" weapons of mass destruction in Iraq back in 2002... what ever happened to them? Sadly, "following the tribe" has replaced analyzing evidence, and this is very much the case with the AHZs. Once again, Scharf projects his own failings onto others. -- TÂșm ShermÂȘn - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist. |
#159
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Should you wear a bicycle foam hat while riding a recumbent?
On 5/9/2011 9:24 AM, SMS wrote:
On 5/5/2011 6:54 PM, Tom Lake wrote: Sheese... did they quit teaching basic research methodology to undergrads? Back in 1970 (when I had to walk to school... two miles... ) it was required core. I took it in my junior year, I recall. Did you know that studies have shown that virtually *every* sentence citing: "Studies have shown..." is utter nonsense. That's been proven, you know! I'm not sure that he doesn't understand that his "research" is flawed (or non-existent). The problem is that there is no research that supports his position, so he makes it up. Be especially careful when you see the phrase "studies show" without any mention of the study. You can be sure that you're about to see something this has no supporting evidence. Also be careful about what some people believe constitutes a "study." One of my favorites is covered in Myth 8 on the web site: Myth 8: Studies show that when helmets are mandated bicycling rates fall by 30%. Fact 8: One group in Australia counted the number of cyclists on the one day of the year before and after a helmet law went into effect and claimed that they counted 30% fewer cyclists. While any statistician would laugh this study off because of its methodology, this âstudyâ has taken on a life of its own among those opposed to helmets. In fact, the group conducting the study intentionally left out large numbers of cyclists going by, claiming that they were part of a âbike rallyâ and hence should not be counted. Also never mentioned is that future counts showed that the number of cyclists quickly went back up to the pre-law level (or course the level never went down 30% to begin with, if it went down at all). It's junk science and junk statistics at its worst. Anytime you see the 30% number used on a web site opposing the use of helmets, you can be pretty certain that the rest of the material on the web site is equally flawed. In fact, every study shows that cycling rates have increased after helmet laws. But there is no proof that the helmet law was the cause for the increase. One could create several reasons why an mandatory helmet law could possibly be the cause of the increase, but that would be pure speculation. There could be multiple causes for increases and decreases in the number of cyclists on the same month and day one year apart. Weather, a large change in the price of fuel, mass transit issues, etc. A statistically sound survey would do daily counts over much a longer period of time. When someone incorrectly claims that there was a decrease in cycling following the adoption of a helmet law, and claims that the helmet law was responsible, they're beginning with a false premise, then speculating as to how something that didn't happen was caused by the new law. Scharf again cites his own website as an authority. Y Y A W W NN N Y Y A A W W W N N N Y Y A A W W W W N N N Y A A W W W W N N N Y AAAAAAAAA W W W W N N N Y A A W W W W N N N Y A A W W N NN -- TÂșm ShermÂȘn - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist. |
#160
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Should you wear a bicycle foam hat while riding a recumbent?
On 5/9/2011 10:28 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
considered Mon, 09 May 2011 07:24:54 -0700 the perfect time to write: nothing, once the lies had been trimmed out +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000 -- TÂșm ShermÂȘn - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist. |
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