Wheels and tires

On 3/29/2020 12:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/28/2020 5:38 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 22:13:13 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

Indeed, from small business owners to generals in the field to
Presidents, one assembles hopefully competent advisors, takes their
counsel but at the end a decision must be made.

Something this President has been loath to do, because in his narcissism
he believes he knows better than everyone else.


You don't like him. Fine. We knew that because you state it frequently
enough.

But what exactly would you have him do?

I'd love for him to say "I'm going to stop pretending I'm the smartest
guy in America. I'm going to stop stating my uneducated guesses and
feelings. I'm going to stop pretending this is minor and will be gone by
Easter. I'm going to tell you to listen to the trained professionals,
the guys who have medical degrees and decades of experience and who are
making statements based on actual data."

I know that's a fantasy. But hey, can't I dream about a competent president?


--
- Frank Krygowski

jbeattie writes:

State health authorities typically run state hospitals and clinics and
have equipment stores for those facilities, but they are not running a
strategic reserve. I don't know of any state that has a strategic
reserve of medicine and medical equipment. States rely on DHHS and
the federal government to fight epidemics just like they rely on the
federal government to fight wars. That's what the federal government
does. Don't blame the states when the feds fall on their faces.

It seems California used to have a stockpile of ventilators,
respirators, and several field hospitals ready to go in case of
pandemic, but they let that all go:

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ls-ventilators

Hindsight is 20/20.

On 3/29/2020 3:47 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 11:54:20 AM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 10:45:42 AM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

What do you think that the government can do?


Tell everybody who possibly can to stay the **** at home.

You so easily are willing to have your own Big Brother. Tell us how
staying at home or practicing social distancing does anything with the
very obvious 30% exposure rating?

I suggest that you forget the panic. Remember the news game from the old
days, "If it bleeds, it leads." Today a more accurate summation of the
Lame Stream Media is "If it bleeds, blame it on Trump".



I don’t think I can answer your question on the value of social distancing,
Tom. Not because I do not believe that avoiding people during a pandemic is
a bad thing, but because I can’t fathom a line of reasoning that would make
this new (to you) concept gain any traction in your head.

Ralph, I am trying to get it through to people that most people have already been exposed to this or will even with social distancing. It is plain in the grocery store that everyone has touched all the produce and the jars and cans of goods. Do you not understand that those are perfect carriers? And then you get up to the counters and they have 6' apart "social distancing". I have to keep from laughing.

Remember that this is a corona virus and so is the four different varieties of rhino viruses that cause the common cold. I imagine that most people's immune system can recognize and fight this thing without any effort.

We don't have any real information so you and I can only make guesses as to the actual mortality rate but I am willing to bet that it is significantly below 1%. I saw the mortality rate for influenza the other day and it is a known quantity and they said it was 3.83%.

My entire point on this subject is to halt the panic and start a little more calm consideration.

And what I'm seeing is people saying that they WANT to be panicked and run around in circles screaming because it is so effective at protecting them.


Tom, you think this virus has very little risk except to those of even
more advanced age than you. Most professionals disagree.

Example: A woman in our neighborhood is a paramedic. At the moment, her
husband still has a job, but they're quite sure he's going to lose it
soon. She has a young kid, so doesn't work full time, but goes out on
medical emergency calls when she can, and gets paid per call.

They recently increased the per-call pay by a tremendous amount - way
over $100 per call - because so many paramedics are too afraid to deal
with COVID cases, and are refusing calls. This woman is taking the
calls, despite being afraid for her kid, because she's sure they'll need
the money.

Got it? The paramedics are scared. The directors of public health are
scared. The nurses in hospitals are scared, at least in part because
there are shortages of personal protective equipment (PPE). But you are
not scared.

So take advantage of this! Market yourself to a local response team, or
clinic, or hospital. Tell them you don't need any PPE - heck, tell them
you're immune. If a little town in Ohio is paying way over $100 per
trip, you can probably ask and get $300 in your hell hole.

Tell them you're unemployed, so you're ready to report immediately.

This is your big chance! Maybe someone will finally hire you!

Oh, and please report back.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/29/2020 6:36 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2020 12:01 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/28/2020 5:38 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 22:13:13 -0500, AMuzi
wrote:

Indeed, from small business owners to generals in the
field to
Presidents, one assembles hopefully competent advisors,
takes their
counsel but at the end a decision must be made.

Something this President has been loath to do, because in
his narcissism
he believes he knows better than everyone else.


You don't like him. Fine. We knew that because you state
it frequently enough.

But what exactly would you have him do?

I'd love for him to say "I'm going to stop pretending I'm
the smartest guy in America. I'm going to stop stating my
uneducated guesses and feelings. I'm going to stop
pretending this is minor and will be gone by Easter. I'm
going to tell you to listen to the trained professionals,
the guys who have medical degrees and decades of experience
and who are making statements based on actual data."

I know that's a fantasy. But hey, can't I dream about a
competent president?



Unfortunately you were unable to watch any of the several
hours long daily press conferences. They're also live on the
radio so they don't interrupt working for those of us who do.

You'd be amazed that Mr Trump has taken your sage advice.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/29/2020 6:40 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
jbeattie writes:

State health authorities typically run state hospitals and clinics and
have equipment stores for those facilities, but they are not running a
strategic reserve. I don't know of any state that has a strategic
reserve of medicine and medical equipment. States rely on DHHS and
the federal government to fight epidemics just like they rely on the
federal government to fight wars. That's what the federal government
does. Don't blame the states when the feds fall on their faces.

It seems California used to have a stockpile of ventilators,
respirators, and several field hospitals ready to go in case of
pandemic, but they let that all go:

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ls-ventilators

Hindsight is 20/20.


Blame shifting has only just begun.

Truly, Victory has a thousand fathers, defeat is an orphan.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/29/2020 1:24 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 3/28/2020 9:05 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:

It requires some serious cognitive dissonance to believe Trump was in
sync with the CDC, etc. during all that time. Even now, he blathers at
the microphone, then those with actual expertise step up to carefully
and diplomatically "rephrase," to give actual facts.

I understand that Trump is a gladhandling salesman, not a statesman, and
that he is anything but a deep thinker. He speaks like a game show
host, not an orator. If you claim that his response to the coronavirus
pandemic has been mediocre, I would not argue.

But he's not invariably, apodictically wrong; that's just not possible.
There was reasonable skepticism on the left and the right as this
situation developed, that it was really happening to *us*. Those that
criticized Trump for dragging his feet, as I recall, may have
outnumbered by those who said he was racist for banning travel from
China.

Maybe, just maybe, it is time to weigh policy alternatives rationally,
to scold Trump for mistakes and, heaven forfend, praise him for steps
taken aright, such as heeding the advice of Drs. Birx and Fauci.
Instead, I see advantage being taken of the pandemic as another chance
to indulge in Trump derangement syndrome, which is not helpful.

There are many things wrong with the US today, Trump is not the cause,
he's a symptom.

FWIW, I never said a word against or in favor of Trump's China travel
ban. And I've never said he is invariably, apodictically wrong. (and not
only because I don't use that word). There seems to be a too-frequent
assumption that all people of any political leaning march in lock step.
It's simply not true. Personally, I regularly disagree with both major
parties.

However, I don't see anything in the Trump administration's response to
this catastrophe that is both A) really good and B) initiated by Trump.
From what I can tell, the bulk of the smart responses have occurred
because he has been cajoled, sweet talked and flattered into reasonable
action by people at least two levels below him.

As an example: Heeding Dr. Fauci? He has repeatedly stood up and spouted
nonsense that Fauci has had to diplomatically walk back. That's happened
enough that analysts are wondering if Fauci will be fired. Did he
eventually listen to Fauci? Perhaps - or perhaps his aides said "Sign
this, it's an order for Big Macs."

Trump's job in this is to be a leader, to take responsibility and cause
proper action. If (as is obviously the case) he lacks the necessary
detailed knowledge, his job is NOT to pretend knowledge; it's to find
and empower people who do have the knowledge, and inspire them to
perform 110%.

It's also his job to inspire in the public proper response, proper
behavior, and if necessary, personal sacrifice. In my view, he's done a
worse job of that than any president in my long lifetime. Even the
dimmest bulbs in the oval office could read a damned script without
going off the grammatical and conceptual rails. But not this guy.

If you want contrast, look up the daily COVID briefings by Ohio's
governor Mike DeWine, teamed with Dept. of Health head Dr. Amy Acton.
DeWine is a Republican, a short odd-looking guy with owlish demeanor,
not the sort of guy who could portray Spartacus. But when you listen to
him, even (or especially) when he's speaking off script or answering
questions, you hear a guy who is articulate, intelligent, respectful,
not mocking, not politicizing. He's leading, and he's taking his job
seriously.

DeWine is a little guy, but Trump is far, far smaller.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/29/2020 12:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/29/2020 10:18 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/28/2020 9:05 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 3/28/2020 6:48 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Tim McNamara writes:

On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 22:13:13 -0500, AMuzi
wrote:

Indeed, from small business owners to generals in the
field to
Presidents, one assembles hopefully competent
advisors, takes their
counsel but at the end a decision must be made.

Something this President has been loath to do, because
in his narcissism
he believes he knows better than everyone else.

According to Dr. Fauci.

"The president has listened to what I have said and what
the other
people on the task force have said. When I have made
recommendations he
has taken them," Fauci added. "The idea of just pitting
one against the
other is just not helpful."

Trump isn't a shining example of how to be president.
But in this case
he really does seem to be doing what competent advisers
suggest.

"In this case" since when? Certainly not since January!

Again:

* “Are there worries about a pandemic at this point?�

Jan. 22 – “No. Not at all. And we have it totally
under control.�

Jan. 24 – “It will all work out well.�

Jan. 30 – “We have it very well under control.* We
have very little
problem in this country at the moment – five. And those
people are all
recuperating successfully.�

Feb. 10 – “Looks like by April, you know, in theory,
when it gets a
little warmer, it miraculously goes away.�

Feb. 19 – “I think the numbers are getting
progressively better as we go.�

Feb. 20 – “…within a couple of days, is going to be
down to close to zero.�

Feb. 22 – “We have it very much under control in
this country.�

Feb. 25 – “…the Democrats are politicizing the
coronavirus… They tried
the impeachment hoax … and this is their new hoax.�

Feb. 26 – “We’re going down, not up.�

Feb. 27 – “It’s going to disappear.* One day like a
miracle – it will
disappear.�

Feb. 29 – “Everything is really under control.�
(The vaccine will be
available) “very rapidly.�

March 2 – “It’s very mild.�

March 4 – “…we’re talking about very small
numbers in the United States.�

March 6 –* “I like this stuff.* I really get it.
People are surprised
I understand it. Every one of these doctors said, ‘How
do you know so
much about this?’ Maybe I have a natural ability.’
Maybe I should have
done that instead of running for president.� Maybe.

March 6: “Anybody who wants a test can get a test.
That’s the bottom line.�

March 7: “I’m not concerned at all. No, we’ve done
a great job with it.�

March 10 – “It will go away. Just stay calm. It
will go away.�

March 16 – (on his own performance) “I’d rate it
a ten.�

March 17 – “I felt it was a pandemic long before it
was called a pandemic.�


And since then? "I feel good about it. That's all it is.
Just a
feeling. You know, I'm a smart guy." No matter what's
said by those
who are, you know, actually educated.

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-...eling-n1166566



*
* I guess I don't see your inside information on what his
advisers told
* him at those points.
*

Correlate the above statements with this information:
https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020...-cdc-timeline/



It requires some serious cognitive dissonance to believe
Trump was in sync with the CDC, etc. during all that time.
Even now, he blathers at the microphone, then those with
actual expertise step up to carefully and diplomatically
"rephrase," to give actual facts.



Let us know how Dr Fauci reacts when you ring him up and tell him he's
wrong to say( more than once), "To his [Trump’s] credit, even though we
disagree on some things, he listens. He goes his own way. He has his own
style. But on substantive issues, he does listen to what I say.”

Fauci's dealing with a jerk who has lost or fired dozens of competent
people, and who has stated a propensity to punish governors and states
that aren't sufficiently obsequious. There has been real speculation how
long it will be until Trump fires Fauci - because Fauci has very, very
diplomatically, let the world know that Trump often spouts nonsense.

Fauci knows this. It seems obvious the statement above was intended to
mollify Trump and deflect further criticism of Trump. And it seems
obvious that Fauci is doing this so his competence can continue to exert
some influence for the public good.

Fauci could have retired long ago. He's in this out of dedication. To
keep serving, he's willing to throw the orange puppy a bone to calm him
down.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/29/2020 7:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2020 1:24 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 3/28/2020 9:05 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:

It requires some serious cognitive dissonance to believe
Trump was in
sync with the CDC, etc. during all that time. Even now,
he blathers at
the microphone, then those with actual expertise step up
to carefully
and diplomatically "rephrase," to give actual facts.

I understand that Trump is a gladhandling salesman, not a
statesman, and
that he is anything but a deep thinker. He speaks like a
game show
host, not an orator. If you claim that his response to
the coronavirus
pandemic has been mediocre, I would not argue.

But he's not invariably, apodictically wrong; that's just
not possible.
There was reasonable skepticism on the left and the right
as this
situation developed, that it was really happening to *us*.
Those that
criticized Trump for dragging his feet, as I recall, may have
outnumbered by those who said he was racist for banning
travel from
China.

Maybe, just maybe, it is time to weigh policy alternatives
rationally,
to scold Trump for mistakes and, heaven forfend, praise
him for steps
taken aright, such as heeding the advice of Drs. Birx and
Fauci.
Instead, I see advantage being taken of the pandemic as
another chance
to indulge in Trump derangement syndrome, which is not
helpful.

There are many things wrong with the US today, Trump is
not the cause,
he's a symptom.

FWIW, I never said a word against or in favor of Trump's
China travel ban. And I've never said he is invariably,
apodictically wrong. (and not only because I don't use that
word). There seems to be a too-frequent assumption that all
people of any political leaning march in lock step. It's
simply not true. Personally, I regularly disagree with both
major parties.

However, I don't see anything in the Trump administration's
response to this catastrophe that is both A) really good and
B) initiated by Trump. From what I can tell, the bulk of the
smart responses have occurred because he has been cajoled,
sweet talked and flattered into reasonable action by people
at least two levels below him.

As an example: Heeding Dr. Fauci? He has repeatedly stood up
and spouted nonsense that Fauci has had to diplomatically
walk back. That's happened enough that analysts are
wondering if Fauci will be fired. Did he eventually listen
to Fauci? Perhaps - or perhaps his aides said "Sign this,
it's an order for Big Macs."

Trump's job in this is to be a leader, to take
responsibility and cause proper action. If (as is obviously
the case) he lacks the necessary detailed knowledge, his job
is NOT to pretend knowledge; it's to find and empower people
who do have the knowledge, and inspire them to perform 110%.

It's also his job to inspire in the public proper response,
proper behavior, and if necessary, personal sacrifice. In my
view, he's done a worse job of that than any president in my
long lifetime. Even the dimmest bulbs in the oval office
could read a damned script without going off the grammatical
and conceptual rails. But not this guy.

If you want contrast, look up the daily COVID briefings by
Ohio's governor Mike DeWine, teamed with Dept. of Health
head Dr. Amy Acton. DeWine is a Republican, a short
odd-looking guy with owlish demeanor, not the sort of guy
who could portray Spartacus. But when you listen to him,
even (or especially) when he's speaking off script or
answering questions, you hear a guy who is articulate,
intelligent, respectful, not mocking, not politicizing. He's
leading, and he's taking his job seriously.

DeWine is a little guy, but Trump is far, far smaller.


Agreed. I'm familiar with Mike DeWine from his many
interviews on WLW going back to his service as Ohio AG. He's
not a small man at all.

Regardless of the wisdom or lack thereof in his business
closures, you have to respect his courage to do it, and
before most other Governors.

Some day in 2023 we'll know if Mr DeWine was presciently
prudent or needlessly overreacting. Ditto for our President.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 29 Mar 2020 12:47:03 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 11:54:20 AM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 10:45:42 AM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

What do you think that the government can do?


Tell everybody who possibly can to stay the **** at home.

You so easily are willing to have your own Big Brother. Tell us how
staying at home or practicing social distancing does anything with the
very obvious 30% exposure rating?

I suggest that you forget the panic. Remember the news game from the old
days, "If it bleeds, it leads." Today a more accurate summation of the
Lame Stream Media is "If it bleeds, blame it on Trump".



I don’t think I can answer your question on the value of social distancing,
Tom. Not because I do not believe that avoiding people during a pandemic is
a bad thing, but because I can’t fathom a line of reasoning that would make
this new (to you) concept gain any traction in your head.

Ralph, I am trying to get it through to people that most people have already been exposed to this or will even with social distancing. It is plain in the grocery store that everyone has touched all the produce and the jars and cans of goods. Do you not understand that those are perfect carriers? And then you get up to the counters and they have 6' apart "social distancing". I have to keep from laughing.

Remember that this is a corona virus and so is the four different varieties of rhino viruses that cause the common cold. I imagine that most people's immune system can recognize and fight this thing without any effort.

We don't have any real information so you and I can only make guesses as to the actual mortality rate but I am willing to bet that it is significantly below 1%. I saw the mortality rate for influenza the other day and it is a known quantity and they said it was 3.83%.

My entire point on this subject is to halt the panic and start a little more calm consideration.

And what I'm seeing is people saying that they WANT to be panicked and run around in circles screaming because it is so effective at protecting them.

Hey Tommy, one of the major requirements for avoidance of the Virus is
"wash your Hands!"

While such a strange and, possibly foreign, concept may not appeal to
you it does provide protection for those handling groceries that have
been previously handled by "everyone".
--
cheers,

John B.

AMuzi wrote:
On 3/29/2020 7:53 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2020 1:24 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 3/28/2020 9:05 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:

It requires some serious cognitive dissonance to believe
Trump was in
sync with the CDC, etc. during all that time. Even now,
he blathers at
the microphone, then those with actual expertise step up
to carefully
and diplomatically "rephrase," to give actual facts.

I understand that Trump is a gladhandling salesman, not a
statesman, and
that he is anything but a deep thinker. He speaks like a
game show
host, not an orator. If you claim that his response to
the coronavirus
pandemic has been mediocre, I would not argue.

But he's not invariably, apodictically wrong; that's just
not possible.
There was reasonable skepticism on the left and the right
as this
situation developed, that it was really happening to *us*.
Those that
criticized Trump for dragging his feet, as I recall, may have
outnumbered by those who said he was racist for banning
travel from
China.

Maybe, just maybe, it is time to weigh policy alternatives
rationally,
to scold Trump for mistakes and, heaven forfend, praise
him for steps
taken aright, such as heeding the advice of Drs. Birx and
Fauci.
Instead, I see advantage being taken of the pandemic as
another chance
to indulge in Trump derangement syndrome, which is not
helpful.

There are many things wrong with the US today, Trump is
not the cause,
he's a symptom.

FWIW, I never said a word against or in favor of Trump's
China travel ban. And I've never said he is invariably,
apodictically wrong. (and not only because I don't use that
word). There seems to be a too-frequent assumption that all
people of any political leaning march in lock step. It's
simply not true. Personally, I regularly disagree with both
major parties.

However, I don't see anything in the Trump administration's
response to this catastrophe that is both A) really good and
B) initiated by Trump. From what I can tell, the bulk of the
smart responses have occurred because he has been cajoled,
sweet talked and flattered into reasonable action by people
at least two levels below him.

As an example: Heeding Dr. Fauci? He has repeatedly stood up
and spouted nonsense that Fauci has had to diplomatically
walk back. That's happened enough that analysts are
wondering if Fauci will be fired. Did he eventually listen
to Fauci? Perhaps - or perhaps his aides said "Sign this,
it's an order for Big Macs."

Trump's job in this is to be a leader, to take
responsibility and cause proper action. If (as is obviously
the case) he lacks the necessary detailed knowledge, his job
is NOT to pretend knowledge; it's to find and empower people
who do have the knowledge, and inspire them to perform 110%.

It's also his job to inspire in the public proper response,
proper behavior, and if necessary, personal sacrifice. In my
view, he's done a worse job of that than any president in my
long lifetime. Even the dimmest bulbs in the oval office
could read a damned script without going off the grammatical
and conceptual rails. But not this guy.

If you want contrast, look up the daily COVID briefings by
Ohio's governor Mike DeWine, teamed with Dept. of Health
head Dr. Amy Acton. DeWine is a Republican, a short
odd-looking guy with owlish demeanor, not the sort of guy
who could portray Spartacus. But when you listen to him,
even (or especially) when he's speaking off script or
answering questions, you hear a guy who is articulate,
intelligent, respectful, not mocking, not politicizing. He's
leading, and he's taking his job seriously.

DeWine is a little guy, but Trump is far, far smaller.


Agreed. I'm familiar with Mike DeWine from his many
interviews on WLW going back to his service as Ohio AG. He's
not a small man at all.

Regardless of the wisdom or lack thereof in his business
closures, you have to respect his courage to do it, and
before most other Governors.

Some day in 2023 we'll know if Mr DeWine was presciently
prudent or needlessly overreacting. Ditto for our President.


Let us pray that it takes us until 2023 to figure it out. For the
scenario I’m worried about, it will be crystal clear by the end of April
whether sufficient action was taken.