300k+ a year

On 1/1/10 7:56 PM, in article
, "Kurgan.
presented by Gringioni." wrote:

On Jan 1, 12:52*pm, WTF wrote:
On 1/1/10 11:22 AM, in article ,





"GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

"WTF" wrote in message
...
On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article
,
"Kurgan.
presented by Gringioni." wrote:

On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
"Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote in
.
co
m.
..
On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

Bull****, you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

Dumbass -

Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those
women's teams for a few years?

I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

Dumbass-

You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens
team.....

So he wasn't a manager?

" Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those
women's teams for a few years?"

As I wrote above.......
What is you definition of a "part time road manager"?



Dear Fat Steve -

Why do you always pretend to have knowledge about situations in which
you have no firsthand information?

Karen Menge ran the Jane's team, but she didn't go out to the races
unless they were local. On the spring part of the season I'd handle
the stuff out on the road. It was usually me and two other people who
would double as soigneur/mechanic. In the late summers, I'd go back
east and handle some of the races there too. For Talgo, I just did
West Coast.

The riders need support in those stage races. For the crit part of the
season they can take care of themselves.

I'm quite positive that none of the women in North America were making
$300k at that time, not even Genvieve Jeanson who had an entire team
built around her. Very few of the teams even had yearly budgets for
the entire team that would reach that level. Probably only three that
I can think of.

Those are just generalities. It's not like I saw the contracts or
anything, but there was plenty of time to shoot the **** in the feed
zones and hear what was going on.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.


Boo hoo! You must be real hurt.....

You did not do anything that any other cyclist could not have done.
You just had a schedule to go when you please and a trust fund to replace a
job..

On Jan 1, 9:11*pm, WTF wrote:
On 1/1/10 7:56 PM, in article
, "Kurgan.

"marco" wrote in message
...
GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:
Add to that, many come from families who have money, like Marin, Palo
Alto, and even Santa Barbara....

marco wrote:
Perhaps I'm blanking on this, but I can't recall a single top-level
woman racer having come from Santa Barbara in the last 20+ years. And
don't say Lynn Brontzman/Gaggioli because she wasn't really from here.
Several really good women riders have made SB their temporary or
permanent home, including Kim Anderson right now, but they all came from
some place else. Is there somebody specifically you're thinking of
actually _from_ Santa Barbara?

GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:
Sure, plenty.

UCSB is actually in Goleta, and I am sure a few cat 1-2 women cyclists
have come out of there over the years, although I can't name any at the
moment from UCSB. I have a friend who lives in Goleta and I can ask him,
he would know cause he always working out over there, and seen a lot of
riders all over the place for the last 30 years. He does both MB and road
racing, plus single and double centuries.

Riders from Santa Barbara...
Meredith Mills and Jennifer Gabet are both Cat 1-2, from Santa Barbara,
Gabet is from Goleta. Angela Rebol is from Santa Barbara, how about
Michelle La Pierre or Amanda McCoy, all from Santa Barbara. Amy Nett,
Lila Ferguson and Angela Bell are all pro cyclists from Santa Barbara.

Bruce,
I know or knew most of the women you mentioned above. They would be the
first to tell you they are neither pro nor competitive at a national
level. To be sure, they are all good people, very nice ladies, and
are/were decent local racers, but none of them ever aspired to be more
than recreational bike racers. Anyway, I'm curious how you came up with
those names. Do you know any of them? I'm not being antagonistic, just
curious to know the places that rbr and my real world cross paths. Who is
your friend who lives in Goleta?
Mark

Wait a minute, that doesn't seem to wash. According to CN, and especially
other sources I have, those women were pro 1-2 road racers, not rec riders.
However according to CN the NRC rankings at one point in 2001 listed these
top world class riders, Mills from Santa Barbara was 38 on the NRC rankings.

1 Lyne Bessette Saturn (Canada)
2 Tina Mayolo-Pic autotrader.com (Buford, Ga.)
3 Ina Teutenberg Saturn (Germany)
4 Joanne Kiesanowski Proctor & Gamble (New Zealand)
5 Nicole Freedman Credit Suisse (Stanford, Calif.)
6 Petra Rossner Saturn (Germany)
7 Laura Charmeda Michella Fanini
38 Meridith Mills Echelon Santa Cruz (Santa Barbara, Calif.)

In 2001, Jeanson won Another Dam race in Arizona, Joanne Kiesanowski was
2nd. Jennifer Gabet of Goleta was 13th. I believe its Cat's Hill in 2001 she
took 12th, Meredith Miller our national champion took 7th. I wouldn't
exactly call Gabet a rec rider, hey? Again in 2002, Gabet took 6th in
Arizona race which was won by Laura Van Gilder who has over 350 national
victories.

In 2005, Angela Rebol is listed as taking 8th on the final GC in the Tour of
Murrieta, note pro women here as well. Note Michelle La Pierre was 7th.

Elite women

1 Dotsie Cowden
2 Laura Yoisten
3 Carol Lynn Neal
4 Lana Atchley
5 Julia Whiteside
6 Melinda Johnson
7 Michelle LaPierre
8 Angela Rebol

2004 Mothball crit was won by Gagg, Angela took 16th, and I can tell you
there were a number of big names in that race, pros. In the Tour of Murrieta
2005, Anglea took 8th on the final GC. Dot Cow won that race and again I can
tell you a lot of big names were in that race, even Kim Anderson finished
well down from your so called rec rider Angela Rebol.

In 1998, at the Collegiate Road Cycling Championship Greenville South
Carolina, Amy Nett of Santa Barbara took 4th in the road race. Christine
Thorburn was 10th. In the crit she was 8th just behind Tiffany Pezzulo who
still races today. Thorburn again was 9th. In the final classment, she was
like 8th, ahead of Thorburn by two places.

Lila Ferguson raced at least from 1998 to 2002 or later. She often took 2nd
or 3rd behind Megan Long, a name you should know.

Angela Bell also raced a number of years and finished 19th on the final GC
in the 2005 Tour of Murrieta in another year. Kim Anderson finished just
ahead. She finished in the top five often in masters races for several
years.
Elite women

1 Dotsie Cowden
2 Laura Yoisten
3 Carol Lynn Neal

18 Kimberly Anderson
19 Angela Bell

Out of all the girls I mentioned, only two were cat 4, but not rec riders.
While these facts are not perfect on the fly, good enough for rbr, but you
said they were all rec riders, and that's simply not true.

"GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote in message
...

Actually I believe the two cat 4 riders were ones I didn't even mention in
these stats. I believe all these girls with stats are cat 1-2.

On 1/1/10 9:52 PM, in article
, "Kurgan.
presented by Gringioni." wrote:

On Jan 1, 9:11*pm, WTF wrote:
On 1/1/10 7:56 PM, in article
, "Kurgan.
presented by Gringioni." wrote:





On Jan 1, 12:52*pm, WTF wrote:
On 1/1/10 11:22 AM, in article ,

"GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

"WTF" wrote in message
...
On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article
,
"Kurgan.
presented by Gringioni." wrote:

On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
"Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote in

s.
co
m.
..
On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

Bull****, you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

Dumbass -

Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those
women's teams for a few years?

I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

Dumbass-

You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens
team.....

So he wasn't a manager?

" Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those
women's teams for a few years?"

As I wrote above.......
What is you definition of a "part time road manager"?

Dear Fat Steve -

Why do you always pretend to have knowledge about situations in which
you have no firsthand information?

Karen Menge ran the Jane's team, but she didn't go out to the races
unless they were local. On the spring part of the season I'd handle
the stuff out on the road. It was usually me and two other people who
would double as soigneur/mechanic. In the late summers, I'd go back
east and handle some of the races there too. For Talgo, I just did
West Coast.

The riders need support in those stage races. For the crit part of the
season they can take care of themselves.

I'm quite positive that none of the women in North America were making
$300k at that time, not even Genvieve Jeanson who had an entire team
built around her. Very few of the teams even had yearly budgets for
the entire team that would reach that level. Probably only three that
I can think of.

Those are just generalities. It's not like I saw the contracts or
anything, but there was plenty of time to shoot the **** in the feed
zones and hear what was going on.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

Boo hoo! You must be real hurt.....

You did not do anything that any other cyclist could not have done.



Dearest Fat Steve -

When you're claiming that it was a Cat 4 team, you're insulting them,
not me.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.


Nice way to agree with my last post...

On Jan 1, 10:02*pm, WTF wrote:
On 1/1/10 9:52 PM, in article
, "Kurgan.

"Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote in message
...
On Jan 1, 8:32 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
"Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote in
...
On Jan 1, 11:22 am, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:





"WTF" wrote in message

...

On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article
,
"Kurgan.
presented by Gringioni." wrote:

On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
"Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote in
.
..
On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

Bull****, you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

Dumbass -

Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those
women's teams for a few years?

I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

Dumbass-

You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens
team.....

So he wasn't a manager?
BTW, if the women are making so much money now, like you claim, then
why is it that races like 'Toona, Tour of Idaho (Ore Ida), Le Grande
Boucle Feminin existed then, but no longer exist today? Is it because
there's tons more money in the sport today? That's why they went away?

I don't claim that only women at the top make good money, and the rest
make
nothing. Even a number of riders in the middle made good money at times,
more then you think. Grande Boucle was the victim by proxy of feuds
between
the UCI and the Tour. The Grande Boucle, in fact both French women riders
and teams have really suffered in France and Pierre Boue pulled the plug,
especially since the top two press photographers skipped it in favor of
races in Italy like Giro De Feminin and Toscana. It was getting no press,
and shrunk to only 3 stages, previously 17 stages in 2003. Also UCI
wouldn't
endorse it, probably fallout from the Tour problems according to Boue, all
French related. In fact, Boue is so angry over the UCI and all the
problems
over the years that he is going to obtain a lawyer just to write a tell
all
book.

Women's Challenge suffered from poor TV coverage, a problem that still
exists today. Prize money was certainly awesome in some years, more then
any
race on record for women. Problem was also that race had courses in the
remote areas away from big cities where fans are. Many cities are always
part of TOC courses, probably a fatal mistake for Idaho race. Who's going
to
travel way out there to see the race? Foothills race is also way out there
in the foothills and it gets zero fans, but its counterpart does very well
in the city crit. Without stellar TV coverage, Women's Challenge wasn't
seem
by many. I think there was like 50 minutes total of TV for all the stages.

snip

If the TV coverage and publicity isn't there, how is it that there's
tons more money in the sport than there was 8 years ago?


Where did that come from? Tons more money?, cause I never said that, but as
bad as things might be, I have heard some very reasonable offers for
contracts. California has had modest benefits too courtesy proxy of TOC both
in TV and fanbase here in the valley. Domestic teams are thin, but at least
one has a UCI license this year, better then last year.

GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:
Add to that, many come from families who have money, like Marin, Palo
Alto, and even Santa Barbara....

marco wrote:
Perhaps I'm blanking on this, but I can't recall a single top-level
woman racer having come from Santa Barbara in the last 20+ years. And
don't say Lynn Brontzman/Gaggioli because she wasn't really from here.
Several really good women riders have made SB their temporary or
permanent home, including Kim Anderson right now, but they all came
from some place else. Is there somebody specifically you're thinking of
actually _from_ Santa Barbara?

GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:
Sure, plenty.

UCSB is actually in Goleta, and I am sure a few cat 1-2 women cyclists
have come out of there over the years, although I can't name any at the
moment from UCSB. I have a friend who lives in Goleta and I can ask him,
he would know cause he always working out over there, and seen a lot of
riders all over the place for the last 30 years. He does both MB and
road racing, plus single and double centuries.

Riders from Santa Barbara...
Meredith Mills and Jennifer Gabet are both Cat 1-2, from Santa Barbara,
Gabet is from Goleta. Angela Rebol is from Santa Barbara, how about
Michelle La Pierre or Amanda McCoy, all from Santa Barbara. Amy Nett,
Lila Ferguson and Angela Bell are all pro cyclists from Santa Barbara.

marco wrote:
Bruce,
I know or knew most of the women you mentioned above. They would be the
first to tell you they are neither pro nor competitive at a national
level. To be sure, they are all good people, very nice ladies, and
are/were decent local racers, but none of them ever aspired to be more
than recreational bike racers. Anyway, I'm curious how you came up with
those names. Do you know any of them? I'm not being antagonistic, just
curious to know the places that rbr and my real world cross paths. Who is
your friend who lives in Goleta?

GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:
Wait a minute, that doesn't seem to wash. According to CN, and especially
other sources I have, those women were pro 1-2 road racers, not rec
riders. However according to CN the NRC rankings at one point in 2001
listed these top world class riders, Mills from Santa Barbara was 38 on
the NRC rankings.

1 Lyne Bessette Saturn (Canada)
2 Tina Mayolo-Pic autotrader.com (Buford, Ga.)
3 Ina Teutenberg Saturn (Germany)
4 Joanne Kiesanowski Proctor & Gamble (New Zealand)
5 Nicole Freedman Credit Suisse (Stanford, Calif.)
6 Petra Rossner Saturn (Germany)
7 Laura Charmeda Michella Fanini
38 Meridith Mills Echelon Santa Cruz (Santa Barbara, Calif.)

In 2001, Jeanson won Another Dam race in Arizona, Joanne Kiesanowski was
2nd. Jennifer Gabet of Goleta was 13th. I believe its Cat's Hill in 2001
she took 12th, Meredith Miller our national champion took 7th. I wouldn't
exactly call Gabet a rec rider, hey? Again in 2002, Gabet took 6th in
Arizona race which was won by Laura Van Gilder who has over 350 national
victories.

In 2005, Angela Rebol is listed as taking 8th on the final GC in the Tour
of Murrieta, note pro women here as well. Note Michelle La Pierre was 7th.

Elite women

1 Dotsie Cowden
2 Laura Yoisten
3 Carol Lynn Neal
4 Lana Atchley
5 Julia Whiteside
6 Melinda Johnson
7 Michelle LaPierre
8 Angela Rebol

2004 Mothball crit was won by Gagg, Angela took 16th, and I can tell you
there were a number of big names in that race, pros. In the Tour of
Murrieta 2005, Anglea took 8th on the final GC. Dot Cow won that race and
again I can tell you a lot of big names were in that race, even Kim
Anderson finished well down from your so called rec rider Angela Rebol.

In 1998, at the Collegiate Road Cycling Championship Greenville South
Carolina, Amy Nett of Santa Barbara took 4th in the road race. Christine
Thorburn was 10th. In the crit she was 8th just behind Tiffany Pezzulo who
still races today. Thorburn again was 9th. In the final classment, she was
like 8th, ahead of Thorburn by two places.

Lila Ferguson raced at least from 1998 to 2002 or later. She often took
2nd or 3rd behind Megan Long, a name you should know.

Angela Bell also raced a number of years and finished 19th on the final GC
in the 2005 Tour of Murrieta in another year. Kim Anderson finished just
ahead. She finished in the top five often in masters races for several
years.
Elite women

1 Dotsie Cowden
2 Laura Yoisten
3 Carol Lynn Neal

18 Kimberly Anderson
19 Angela Bell

Out of all the girls I mentioned, only two were cat 4, but not rec riders.
While these facts are not perfect on the fly, good enough for rbr, but you
said they were all rec riders, and that's simply not true.

Bruce,

I'm sorry, but you are wrong in this matter. First of all, my words were
"recreational racer" which I define as anybody who basically races locally
or regionally, as opposed to following the national circuit, and for whom
bike racing is a hobby. None of the women you mentioned were, or are, more
than local or regional level riders. You can look up results all night if
you want, but I know these ladies and I know what I'm talking about. Jenny
and Meredith were cat 2 women racers who competed for a couple years mostly
in California, but that is still recreational racing. Meredith's husband may
still lurk on rbr and has posted here in the past. Please speak up Eric if
you are reading this. I imagine you are having a good laugh. Angie Bell was
over 50 years old in that result you listed above, and placing one spot in
back of Kim Anderson in a pre-season po-dunk race does not make Angie a pro.
Lila Ferguson was a junior, and as far as I recall, never raced in serious
women's races. Angela Rebol was never higher than a cat 3 rider. Of the
names you mentioned, only Michelle still races and she's in her mid 40's and
is a cat 3.

Again, I like all these ladies a lot, but they are not pro bike racers.

Mark
ps. Back on topic, how about you give your thoughts about the salaries of
the Columbia/High Road ladies. And also, who is your friend in Goleta who
races?

On Jan 1, 10:31*pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
"Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote in ...
On Jan 1, 8:32 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:





"Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote in
...
On Jan 1, 11:22 am, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

"WTF" wrote in message

...

On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article
,
"Kurgan.
presented by Gringioni." wrote:

On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
"Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote in
.
..
On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:

Bull****, you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

Dumbass -

Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those
women's teams for a few years?

I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

Dumbass-

You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens
team.....

So he wasn't a manager?
BTW, if the women are making so much money now, like you claim, then
why is it that races like 'Toona, Tour of Idaho (Ore Ida), Le Grande
Boucle Feminin existed then, but no longer exist today? Is it because
there's tons more money in the sport today? That's why they went away?

I don't claim that only women at the top make good money, and the rest
make
nothing. Even a number of riders in the middle made good money at times,
more then you think. Grande Boucle was the victim by proxy of feuds
between
the UCI and the Tour. The Grande Boucle, in fact both French women riders
and teams have really suffered in France and Pierre Boue pulled the plug,
especially since the top two press photographers skipped it in favor of
races in Italy like Giro De Feminin and Toscana. It was getting no press,
and shrunk to only 3 stages, previously 17 stages in 2003. Also UCI
wouldn't
endorse it, probably fallout from the Tour problems according to Boue, all
French related. In fact, Boue is so angry over the UCI and all the
problems
over the years that he is going to obtain a lawyer just to write a tell
all
book.

Women's Challenge suffered from poor TV coverage, a problem that still
exists today. Prize money was certainly awesome in some years, more then
any
race on record for women. Problem was also that race had courses in the
remote areas away from big cities where fans are. Many cities are always
part of TOC courses, probably a fatal mistake for Idaho race. Who's going
to
travel way out there to see the race? Foothills race is also way out there
in the foothills and it gets zero fans, but its counterpart does very well
in the city crit. Without stellar TV coverage, Women's Challenge wasn't
seem
by many. I think there was like 50 minutes total of TV for all the stages.

snip

If the TV coverage and publicity isn't there, how is it that there's
tons more money in the sport than there was 8 years ago?

Where did that come from? Tons more money?, cause I never said that,



Dumbass -

You said that my knowledge was obsolete.

I don't see how things have changed. If anything, things on the
women's side look to be a bit worse since I was involved, with the
demise of those big races.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

"marco" wrote in message
...

I'm sorry, but you are wrong in this matter. First of all, my words were
"recreational racer" which I define as anybody who basically races locally
or regionally, as opposed to following the national circuit, and for whom
bike racing is a hobby. None of the women you mentioned were, or are, more
than local or regional level riders. You can look up results all night if
you want, but I know these ladies and I know what I'm talking about. Jenny
and Meredith were cat 2 women racers who competed for a couple years
mostly in California, but that is still recreational racing. Meredith's
husband may still lurk on rbr and has posted here in the past. Please
speak up Eric if you are reading this. I imagine you are having a good
laugh. Angie Bell was over 50 years old in that result you listed above,
and placing one spot in back of Kim Anderson in a pre-season po-dunk race
does not make Angie a pro. Lila Ferguson was a junior, and as far as I
recall, never raced in serious women's races. Angela Rebol was never
higher than a cat 3 rider. Of the names you mentioned, only Michelle still
races and she's in her mid 40's and is a cat 3.

Again, I like all these ladies a lot, but they are not pro bike racers.

Mark
ps. Back on topic, how about you give your thoughts about the salaries of
the Columbia/High Road ladies. And also, who is your friend in Goleta who
races?

They raced in some races that are not local or regional, but out of state,
look at the stats. My point is that contrary to what you said, cat 1-2
riders did in fact race from Santa Barbara in many years, both in state and
out of state, the stats prove it. There is no denying they raced and placed
well against some of the top women in the sport. The fact that these girls
are not superstars is quite clear, but nevertheless they placed well at
times against a very select group of pro women. I am just saying generally
speaking though that there has been cat 1-2 riders from SB and Goleta. That
was just a quick check, I bet with a little research there would be more.
However, if Anderson and Gagg lived in Santa Barbara at any time, that
should qualify them as being from SB if they established residence. UCSB and
Goleta should count then.

My friend works for Jordano, his wife works as software debugger at QAD I
think it is, something like that. He doesn't race, but he might know a few
things. His thing is single and double centuries. He lived there all his
life, so he might know a few things.

I did talk with Petra Rossner this year at some lengths, but I guessing you
are wondering how much Stevens is getting. I don't know either. I guessing
Arndt should be one of the highest paid, not sure about Anderson salary
either, but I'm guessing Arndt was making anywhere from 50-75k, even more in
some years. If she's not getting 50k, I would say that is a pity and a
shock.