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#11
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Hecklers starting to joust with the Dope King
On Jun 7, 11:27*am, "marco" wrote:
Brad Anders wrote: Anton, you said you just stopped by his shop this past weekend, and it sounds like you will likely have (or have had) the opportunity to challenge Lance. Tell us what you did, or what you're going to do, we all need the guidance. Are you going to bring your dual syringes again? Anton Berlin wrote: I wouldn't go out of my way to run into him but if I did I doubt I would waste my time or voice. *Lance is pretty practiced at denial. A week before the Tour of California, my wife and I were driving to the nursery when we came up behind a slow moving SUV following two riders. I knew immediately who it was--Lance riding with a friend of mine. I told my wife and she got really excited (she's got a thing for celebrities). I rolled down the passenger window and proceeded to pass the SUV and slow down beside the riders. Lance turned toward us looking a bit annoyed. Out of respect for my friend, I resisted my initial temptation to heckle him ...but we didn't acknowledge him either. We just yelled "Hi" to my friend. It's one thing to have a harsh opinion about somebody, but it's something different to confront them directly, especially if the issue doesn't really impact you. Actually, I'm conflicted... I do feel really bad for those guys who stayed clean even though it meant a one-way ticket home. That's why the doping apologists like --D-y bug me. Yeah, the system is corrupt, but still some guys have enough integrity to say "No". I have struggled with my views on doping in cycling for a long time, and I've advocated harsh sanctions against dopers in this n.g. as long ago as '94 or possibly earler. My current view is that effective, undetectable doping methods have existed for years, and while great progress has been made in detection, such methods will continue to exist and develop. Cycling will never be rid of doping, and neither will other endurance sports. So, what do you do as a fan? For me, my choices are to quit following the sport or to assume that what I'm watching is a reasonably level playing field, where the top guys I'm watching are doing essentially the same things as their competitors. Those that go too far to gain an unfair advantage pay the price. Those that are too careless pay the price. Those that burn everyone on the way pay the price. There is plenty of evidence that these eventualities are exactly what is happening. Who knows, it may happen to Lance. Time will tell. What is the impact on me as a cyclist, and as a parent? As a cyclist, I don't care if pros are doping. I don't race any more, so I don't care about master's fatties doping themselves to the gills to win the COVETED STARS AND STRIPES JERSEY. As a parent, I would never advocate a pro sports career to my kids in the first place, especially cycling, no matter what talent level they show. In cycling, it's pretty clear that for the ultra-elite, when they reach a certain level (and maybe, way before then), they're confronted with a very ugly reality, which is that effective, undetectable doping strategies exist that make the difference at the 0.05% level that separates the winners from the also- rans. Given the gigantic investment in time and effort that a cyclist at this level has put into the sport at that point, it's not surprising that some decide to drink the Kool-Aide and do what they need to. Some don't, and that takes a lot of guts to do. As for my kids, I'd rather see them pursue a career that has more potential for lifelong accomplishment, and treat athletics as a requirement for a healthy life and fun. Brad Anders |
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#12
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Hecklers starting to joust with the Dope King
Brad Anders wrote:
I have struggled with my views on doping in cycling for a long time, and I've advocated harsh sanctions against dopers in this n.g. as long ago as '94 or possibly earler. My current view is that effective, undetectable doping methods have existed for years, and while great progress has been made in detection, such methods will continue to exist and develop. Cycling will never be rid of doping, and neither will other endurance sports. So, what do you do as a fan? For me, my choices are to quit following the sport or to assume that what I'm watching is a reasonably level playing field, where the top guys I'm watching are doing essentially the same things as their competitors. Those that go too far to gain an unfair advantage pay the price. Those that are too careless pay the price. Those that burn everyone on the way pay the price. +1 ( +N in fact - as many I know feel the same way) . All I hope is that I never come to see the day that those I revered are shown to have been doping during their heyday (although their 'doping family trees' suggest it may only be a matter of time) ... :-( Regards, Steven Perryman |
#13
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Hecklers starting to joust with the Dope King
In article
, Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote: On Jun 6, 4:39Â*pm, Anton Berlin wrote: Lance better talk to his attorneys before he realizes too late you can't punch people for telling the truth. They ain't 'fighting words' if they're true. Â*(of course I have no idea what the laws in LU are) But in Amerika it's open season on Lance. http://gantdaily.com/2010/06/06/heck...armstrongs-thi... The LANCE has previously shown hecklers that he is not to be trifled with: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b... 42006738809f3 http://magliarosa.wordpress.com/2009...diabo-moderno/ Should have dispatched a water carrier to dismount and rub snow in tool boy's face. -- Michael Press |
#14
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Hecklers starting to joust with the Dope King
In article
, Anton Berlin wrote: On Jun 7, 11:17Â*am, Brad Anders wrote: On Jun 7, 7:52Â*am, Anton Berlin wrote: Probably a publicity stunt paid for by Lance. Â*(and yes I saw it when it came out) Question this ---Why does John Elway pull one car out of the snowy ditch every winter and there just happens to be a tv station and news photographer there when he does it? Is it because he's a genuine nice guy or is because he has 17 car dealerships in Denver and people like to buy cars from a nice guy? Lance Inc has a bigger media machine than most companies up to a $B in annual revenues. It's just sad that the guy didn't step up when challenged, sooner or later someone will and that's when it gets interesting. Anton, you said you just stopped by his shop this past weekend, and it sounds like you will likely have (or have had) the opportunity to challenge Lance. Tell us what you did, or what you're going to do, we all need the guidance. Are you going to bring your dual syringes again? thanks, Brad Anders I wouldn't go out of my way to run into him but if I did I doubt I would waste my time or voice. Lance is pretty practiced at denial. Why isn't he suing Landis ? In the past he did the next day. More proof that LANCE took drugs for performance! -- Michael Press |
#15
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Hecklers starting to joust with the Dope King
In article
, Anton Berlin wrote: Brad, I kill a little time at work ranting on these boards and the stories in the Dallas newspaper but other than that I don't really care that much. I'm not an ex-pro, just one of many ex cat1s that exist. Life is busy enough and the arenas I do my battles in are far more personal to me. And the reality is I don't any real passion or anger towards Lance or even BP or Wall Street as examples. It's a long haul and there are far greater forces in the universe working to balance these things out. Lance and all of the other cheaters in the world have a psychology that allows them not to realize that simple fundamental reality. I do not believe you as you claim to dispassionately observe. You write with venom; with a serious, humorless, edge; with a kind of energy the matter does not deserve; a matter that has nothing to do with you personally or your endeavor to get along in the world. -- Michael Press |
#16
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Hecklers starting to joust with the Dope King
S Perryman wrote:
those I revered There's your problem right there. |
#17
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Hecklers starting to joust with the Dope King
On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 11:27:34 -0700 (PDT), Anton Berlin
wrote: It's a long haul and there are far greater forces in the universe working to balance these things out. But evidently many aren't willing to chance it... Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels... |
#18
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Hecklers starting to joust with the Dope King
Anton Berlin wrote:
It's a long haul and there are far greater forces in the universe working to balance these things out. Dark energy doesn't work if you get your candles wrong. |
#19
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Hecklers starting to joust with the Dope King
On Jun 7, 1:27*pm, "marco" wrote:
Brad Anders wrote: Anton, you said you just stopped by his shop this past weekend, and it sounds like you will likely have (or have had) the opportunity to challenge Lance. Tell us what you did, or what you're going to do, we all need the guidance. Are you going to bring your dual syringes again? Anton Berlin wrote: I wouldn't go out of my way to run into him but if I did I doubt I would waste my time or voice. *Lance is pretty practiced at denial. A week before the Tour of California, my wife and I were driving to the nursery when we came up behind a slow moving SUV following two riders. I knew immediately who it was--Lance riding with a friend of mine. I told my wife and she got really excited (she's got a thing for celebrities). I rolled down the passenger window and proceeded to pass the SUV and slow down beside the riders. Lance turned toward us looking a bit annoyed. Out of respect for my friend, I resisted my initial temptation to heckle him ...but we didn't acknowledge him either. We just yelled "Hi" to my friend. It's one thing to have a harsh opinion about somebody, but it's something different to confront them directly, especially if the issue doesn't really impact you. Actually, I'm conflicted... I do feel really bad for those guys who stayed clean even though it meant a one-way ticket home. That's why the doping apologists like --D-y bug me. Yeah, the system is corrupt, but still some guys have enough integrity to say "No". Or, the powers that be could formulate practical rules that could be practically enforced, on the day. IOW, no "test interpretations" that require political/professional status from interpreters in order to hold force, no retro-testing, no pie-in-the-sky promises to "clean up Sport" for the advertisers, who are, aside from a minority of unrealistic fans, the only ones who "care", and that only because sponsoring "cheaters" makes them look bad. That's not apologizing. That's trying to get real about a complicated situation that has no easy "solutions". BTW, I feel bad for the guys who stay clean including myself who saw others ride away to the medals. I could have juiced, as reports indicate at least some of those guys were doing. Again, people will take reputedly dangerous substances and egregiously cheat in other ways to win *anything*, anywhere, any time. I just want some nice entertainment with no "scandals" attending. Let's work in that direction, shall we? --D-y |
#20
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Hecklers starting to joust with the Dope King
Brad Anders wrote:
I have struggled with my views on doping in cycling for a long time, and I've advocated harsh sanctions against dopers in this n.g. as long ago as '94 or possibly earler. My current view is that effective, undetectable doping methods have existed for years, and while great progress has been made in detection, such methods will continue to exist and develop. Cycling will never be rid of doping, and neither will other endurance sports. So, what do you do as a fan? For me, my choices are to quit following the sport or to assume that what I'm watching is a reasonably level playing field, where the top guys I'm watching are doing essentially the same things as their competitors. Those that go too far to gain an unfair advantage pay the price. Those that are too careless pay the price. Those that burn everyone on the way pay the price. There is plenty of evidence that these eventualities are exactly what is happening. Who knows, it may happen to Lance. Time will tell. What is the impact on me as a cyclist, and as a parent? As a cyclist, I don't care if pros are doping. I don't race any more, so I don't care about master's fatties doping themselves to the gills to win the COVETED STARS AND STRIPES JERSEY. As a parent, I would never advocate a pro sports career to my kids in the first place, especially cycling, no matter what talent level they show. In cycling, it's pretty clear that for the ultra-elite, when they reach a certain level (and maybe, way before then), they're confronted with a very ugly reality, which is that effective, undetectable doping strategies exist that make the difference at the 0.05% level that separates the winners from the also- rans. Given the gigantic investment in time and effort that a cyclist at this level has put into the sport at that point, it's not surprising that some decide to drink the Kool-Aide and do what they need to. Some don't, and that takes a lot of guts to do. As for my kids, I'd rather see them pursue a career that has more potential for lifelong accomplishment, and treat athletics as a requirement for a healthy life and fun. Well said, and I share some of your viewpoints above, particularly the part about keeping your kids away from this particular sport. Not because of doping but rather because the training commitment is too time consuming and, in my opinion, becoming too dangerous on public roads. I am happy that my own kids have stuck to more traditional sports. I do agree with you that there will always be doping in cycling, but perhaps we disagree about how much effort should be put into catching and exposing the cheaters. You're right that doping techniques will stay ahead of testing, but with more investment the gap can be narrowed. If the sport is serious about cleaning itself up, then it will make the investment. With enough effort, I believe doping could become the exception rather than the norm. Why make the effort? Several reasons. First, the fallacy in the "they're-all-doing-it-so-who-cares" argument is that not everyone benefits to the same extent when doped, even if they were all on the same program. It does not maintain a level playing field. Second, they're not all doing it. As long as doping is against the rules, there will be riders who have the moral fortitude to say "No" and I think they deserve a substantial amount of anti-doping effort on their behalf. Fighting for the underdog and all that righteous stuff. I have friends who raced clean at various pro levels, including one who spent a couple years on Pro Tour teams, and it breaks my heart to see and hear what they're up against. Third, it seems to me that cycling is at a crossroad in its anti-doping "fight"... either it really steps up to the challenge, or it turns a blind eye like many other sports have done. If the latter path is taken, I have no doubt that doping will spread like a cancer into lower and lower levels. Several notable busts have shown that it's already metastasizing. Twenty years ago, the typical local/regional race in the US would have a clean P/1/2 field. In the last 5-10 years or so, it's changed...typically you'd have a handful of riders on a program, and that's probably the case with some masters fields now also. It will reach the situation where everyone who pins on a number expects to be racing against dopers. I think that would ruin bike racing as a participation sport. Unlike some rec-league softball goon on steroids or a bowler on beta-blockers, a masters fatty or a young cat 2 using epo and hgh that he/she bought in mexico will crush his/her clean competitors. It will be a paradigm shift (to use an over-used phrase) that impacts tens of thousands of people and it will drive people out of the sport. That has to be bad. Obviously, rbr'ers are not representative of cycling fans. The majority of people here will follow the sport no matter what happens with the doping fight. My impression of the more casual fan base is that they are drawn to the drama and suffer factor. Once it becomes widely accepted that most all pro riders are doped, I believe that the casual fans will lose interest. Anyway, I know my opinions don't reflect the majority here, and I'm ok with that. Mark |
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