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#21
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Selecting An Appropriate Bolt
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 11:11:18 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/14/2017 12:33 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 7:27:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 4/14/2017 9:14 AM, Art Shapiro wrote: On 4/14/2017 5:35 AM, AMuzi wrote: Original handlebar clamp bolts are Grade 8; readily available and cheap. Grade 5 may be strong enough but for pennies difference I suggest an 8. How does one get these "readily available" Grade 8 guys? Deda doesn't seem to have much of a web presence outside of Italy. Is this a generic item stocked by a good LBS? Any metric fastener supplier if not your local hardware store. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=DIN+912+grade+8&t=ha&ia=web My neighborhood hardware store has them: http://aboysupply.com/wp-content/upl...1024x415_c.png They have a crazy selection of fasteners. By the way, what's the deal with thread pitch? I always worry I'm getting the wrong pitch, but I guess that the whole "standard/fine/extra fine" thread pitch only kicks in with fasteners over 8mm(?). Otherwise, it's a pre-set. Right? No. It's just the charts that only kick in at 8. They are clearly both a)written by someone who doesn't actually know, themselves, and b)plagarising heavily from each other, and repeating the other's mistakes. There are metric fine pitch threads https://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat3.htm like 5mm-0.5 instead of 5mm-0.8 That chart is ****ed up. It says fine but lists more than one thread pitch in the first column, and inconsistently shows extra- and super-fine pitches instead. The commonly found standard M5 bolt is indeed 0.8 pitch, but the commonly found fine pitch M5 is 0.7. 0.5 must be extra-fine or super-fine. Which is why when you buy a tap and dies set it comes with 5-.8 and 5-.7 but not 5-.5. I think but am not 100% sure that M6 fine is 0.8 not 0.75. http://www.sears.com/craftsman-39-pc...g&gclsrc=aw.ds but I've hardly ever come across them in real life. No? Are you sure - you've never chased munged up pedal threads? Doing so sends you down to the hardware store for an M10-1.0 tap, because your tap and dies set comes with a 10-1.5 (standard) and 10-1.25 (fine). There is at least one other place where there is a fine thread, an 8, I think, and I think it's the brake pivot bolt, but am not sure I'm remembering correctly. What's the thread pitch of derailer hangers? |
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#22
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Selecting An Appropriate Bolt
On 4/17/2017 6:19 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 11:11:18 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/14/2017 12:33 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 7:27:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 4/14/2017 9:14 AM, Art Shapiro wrote: On 4/14/2017 5:35 AM, AMuzi wrote: Original handlebar clamp bolts are Grade 8; readily available and cheap. Grade 5 may be strong enough but for pennies difference I suggest an 8. How does one get these "readily available" Grade 8 guys? Deda doesn't seem to have much of a web presence outside of Italy. Is this a generic item stocked by a good LBS? Any metric fastener supplier if not your local hardware store. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=DIN+912+grade+8&t=ha&ia=web My neighborhood hardware store has them: http://aboysupply.com/wp-content/upl...1024x415_c.png They have a crazy selection of fasteners. By the way, what's the deal with thread pitch? I always worry I'm getting the wrong pitch, but I guess that the whole "standard/fine/extra fine" thread pitch only kicks in with fasteners over 8mm(?). Otherwise, it's a pre-set. Right? No. It's just the charts that only kick in at 8. They are clearly both a)written by someone who doesn't actually know, themselves, and b)plagarising heavily from each other, and repeating the other's mistakes. There are metric fine pitch threads https://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat3.htm like 5mm-0.5 instead of 5mm-0.8 That chart is ****ed up. It says fine but lists more than one thread pitch in the first column, and inconsistently shows extra- and super-fine pitches instead. The commonly found standard M5 bolt is indeed 0.8 pitch, but the commonly found fine pitch M5 is 0.7. 0.5 must be extra-fine or super-fine. Which is why when you buy a tap and dies set it comes with 5-.8 and 5-.7 but not 5-.5. I think but am not 100% sure that M6 fine is 0.8 not 0.75. http://www.sears.com/craftsman-39-pc...g&gclsrc=aw.ds but I've hardly ever come across them in real life. No? Are you sure - you've never chased munged up pedal threads? Doing so sends you down to the hardware store for an M10-1.0 tap, because your tap and dies set comes with a 10-1.5 (standard) and 10-1.25 (fine). There is at least one other place where there is a fine thread, an 8, I think, and I think it's the brake pivot bolt, but am not sure I'm remembering correctly. What's the thread pitch of derailer hangers? Pedals are 9/16"-20tpi. The older metric format was m14x1.25 (now abandoned) and there are 1/2"-20 for steel OPC. Modern gear tabs are m10x1. Campagnolo changed from 10f26 (WW 55deg) in 1999. Sidepull pivot bolts are mostly m6x1.0 but outliers include Zeus 2001 with fine m6x0.75. There are (were) others but as I noted they are outliers. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#23
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Selecting An Appropriate Bolt
On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 5:50:28 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/17/2017 6:19 PM, Doug Landau wrote: On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 11:11:18 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/14/2017 12:33 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 7:27:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 4/14/2017 9:14 AM, Art Shapiro wrote: On 4/14/2017 5:35 AM, AMuzi wrote: Original handlebar clamp bolts are Grade 8; readily available and cheap. Grade 5 may be strong enough but for pennies difference I suggest an 8. How does one get these "readily available" Grade 8 guys? Deda doesn't seem to have much of a web presence outside of Italy. Is this a generic item stocked by a good LBS? Any metric fastener supplier if not your local hardware store. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=DIN+912+grade+8&t=ha&ia=web My neighborhood hardware store has them: http://aboysupply.com/wp-content/upl...1024x415_c.png They have a crazy selection of fasteners. By the way, what's the deal with thread pitch? I always worry I'm getting the wrong pitch, but I guess that the whole "standard/fine/extra fine" thread pitch only kicks in with fasteners over 8mm(?). Otherwise, it's a pre-set. Right? No. It's just the charts that only kick in at 8. They are clearly both a)written by someone who doesn't actually know, themselves, and b)plagarising heavily from each other, and repeating the other's mistakes. There are metric fine pitch threads https://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat3.htm like 5mm-0.5 instead of 5mm-0.8 That chart is ****ed up. It says fine but lists more than one thread pitch in the first column, and inconsistently shows extra- and super-fine pitches instead. The commonly found standard M5 bolt is indeed 0.8 pitch, but the commonly found fine pitch M5 is 0.7. 0.5 must be extra-fine or super-fine. Which is why when you buy a tap and dies set it comes with 5-.8 and 5-.7 but not 5-.5. I think but am not 100% sure that M6 fine is 0.8 not 0.75. http://www.sears.com/craftsman-39-pc...g&gclsrc=aw.ds but I've hardly ever come across them in real life. No? Are you sure - you've never chased munged up pedal threads? Doing so sends you down to the hardware store for an M10-1.0 tap, because your tap and dies set comes with a 10-1.5 (standard) and 10-1.25 (fine). There is at least one other place where there is a fine thread, an 8, I think, and I think it's the brake pivot bolt, but am not sure I'm remembering correctly. What's the thread pitch of derailer hangers? Pedals are 9/16"-20tpi. The older metric format was m14x1.25 (now abandoned) and there are 1/2"-20 for steel OPC. Modern gear tabs are m10x1. Campagnolo changed from 10f26 (WW 55deg) in 1999. Sidepull pivot bolts are mostly m6x1.0 but outliers include Zeus 2001 with fine m6x0.75. There are (were) others but as I noted they are outliers. OK, guess i was rembering derailer hangars http://www.parktool.com/product/frame-tap-tap-10 |
#24
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Selecting An Appropriate Bolt
On 4/17/2017 7:19 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 11:11:18 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: There are metric fine pitch threads https://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat3.htm like 5mm-0.5 instead of 5mm-0.8 That chart is ****ed up. It says fine but lists more than one thread pitch in the first column, and inconsistently shows extra- and super-fine pitches instead. I could have walked downstairs and opened my Machinery's Handbook but didn't bother. As I said, I've hardly ever come across fine pitch metric threads in real life. I was simply giving evidence that they exist. but I've hardly ever come across them in real life. No? Are you sure - you've never chased munged up pedal threads? Actually, no, I don't think I ever have. Doing so sends you down to the hardware store for an M10-1.0 tap, because your tap and dies set comes with a 10-1.5 (standard) and 10-1.25 (fine). As Andrew says, my pedal threads are all 9/16", except for some kid bike steel cranks. Andrew says 20 tpi, and I'll trust him. I've never bothered to check. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#25
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Selecting An Appropriate Bolt
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 16:19:15 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
wrote: On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 11:11:18 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/14/2017 12:33 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 7:27:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 4/14/2017 9:14 AM, Art Shapiro wrote: On 4/14/2017 5:35 AM, AMuzi wrote: Original handlebar clamp bolts are Grade 8; readily available and cheap. Grade 5 may be strong enough but for pennies difference I suggest an 8. How does one get these "readily available" Grade 8 guys? Deda doesn't seem to have much of a web presence outside of Italy. Is this a generic item stocked by a good LBS? Any metric fastener supplier if not your local hardware store. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=DIN+912+grade+8&t=ha&ia=web My neighborhood hardware store has them: http://aboysupply.com/wp-content/upl...1024x415_c.png They have a crazy selection of fasteners. By the way, what's the deal with thread pitch? I always worry I'm getting the wrong pitch, but I guess that the whole "standard/fine/extra fine" thread pitch only kicks in with fasteners over 8mm(?). Otherwise, it's a pre-set. Right? No. It's just the charts that only kick in at 8. They are clearly both a)written by someone who doesn't actually know, themselves, and b)plagarising heavily from each other, and repeating the other's mistakes. There are metric fine pitch threads https://mdmetric.com/tech/thddat3.htm like 5mm-0.5 instead of 5mm-0.8 That chart is ****ed up. It says fine but lists more than one thread pitch in the first column, and inconsistently shows extra- and super-fine pitches instead. The commonly found standard M5 bolt is indeed 0.8 pitch, but the commonly found fine pitch M5 is 0.7. 0.5 must be extra-fine or super-fine. Which is why when you buy a tap and dies set it comes with 5-.8 and 5-.7 but not 5-.5. I think but am not 100% sure that M6 fine is 0.8 not 0.75. http://www.sears.com/craftsman-39-pc...g&gclsrc=aw.ds but I've hardly ever come across them in real life. No? Are you sure - you've never chased munged up pedal threads? Doing so sends you down to the hardware store for an M10-1.0 tap, because your tap and dies set comes with a 10-1.5 (standard) and 10-1.25 (fine). There is at least one other place where there is a fine thread, an 8, I think, and I think it's the brake pivot bolt, but am not sure I'm remembering correctly. What's the thread pitch of derailer hangers? The "fine thread - course thread" discussion if essentially a very simplistic categorizing of fasteners. The U.S. Unified thread system provides a sort of rationalization for a UNC/UNF series but that didn't and doesn't prevent fasteners being made in a large number of thread pitches. In U.S. sizes we have, for example, the 1/4"x20tpi (National Course), the 1/4 x 24 (NS), the 1/4 x 28 (NF), the 1/4 x 32 (NEF) and the 1/4 x 40 (NS). |
#26
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Selecting An Appropriate Bolt
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#27
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Selecting An Appropriate Bolt
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 10:29:32 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote: If you want to talk length then yes. A bolt should be long enough that one complete thread will be extend past the nut. but there is not maximum length, un less, or course it hits the other side of the automobile. This is not true with AN hardware.AN hardware is spec'd by it's diameter and grip length -and there is a stringent spec as to how much thread must/may extend beyond the nut. You NEVER have threads within the "grip" It is not an 8-32, nor is it an 8mm. Both of these suggestions are ridiculous. It is an M6x18 and while fine m6 bolts do exist in 1.10 pitch they are not common and it is safe to say it is, in this application, almost undoubtedly a 1.0. You seem to have latched on the number 8 for some reason. An M6X10 is the metric "functional equivalent" of a 1/4" UNC bolt. It's dimensions and strength are very close. Being a metric bolt it will be neither a Grade 5 nor a Grade 8. - it will be a class 8.8 or 10.9 or 12.9 An 8.8 is the metric "functional equivalent" to a grade 5 If you wish to be picky then let us be picky. There is no such thing as a M6X10 thread, and even if it existed it would hardly be equivalent to a 1/4-20 bolt. After all a 1 inch 1/4" bolt would have 20 threads on it while your imaginary M6X10 bolt would have only (roughly) 4. Probably have to tighten the nut real tight to get it to hold. I wonder can one even cut a 60 degree 10mm thread on a 6 mm rod? Who's being picky?? |
#28
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Selecting An Appropriate Bolt
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#30
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Selecting An Appropriate Bolt
On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 8:29:53 PM UTC-7, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 17:51:39 -0400, wrote: On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:52:56 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau wrote: On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 4:15:34 AM UTC-7, John B Slocomb wrote: On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 20:07:48 -0700, Art Shapiro wrote: I had a bit of an adventure when one of the two handlebar-fixing bolts on my Deda Murex quilled stem decided to snap with a rather impressive cracking noise. I somehow didn't crash and happened to be only about seven miles from home. I got slowly home holding the stem with one hand and one of the brake levers on the dangling handlebars with the other hand. (This is not recommended to the reader.) I see that the bolt is a M6x18 tapered cone head Allen cap screw with pressed-on washer. The stem is two months shy of 15 years old, but I don't want to have this happen again. Looking on eBay, I see quite a few appropriate bolts, but I'm not sure what is optimal. Can anyone help? Everything seems to be Grade 5. Is that safe enough, or do I really want to (somehow) find Grade 8? Many are titanium. Is that a better choice than the more-common steel? Or should I look for stainless steel? I am always happy to save a few grams, but not if that's a significant risk. Advice welcome! Art Grade 5 bolts should certainly be strong enough to hold the handle bars on. But there are grades 8 or 9 that are stronger. What makes you say this? Do you have some #s to back this statement up, or is it just your wild guess? Have you calculated the load on this part when when a rider of a given weight hits a pothole at a given speed, or ??? And more importantly, why skimp here? As an aside your description is incorrect. It might be an U.S. size which might be 8-32 or it might be metric in which case it would be M8-1.25 or maybe M8-1.0. A U.S. #8 bolt is about half the thickness of a 8mm bolt. Huh?!? What are you on about? It is you who is incorrect not he. He said it was an M6x18. The x is pronounced "by". Put M6x18 in google and click images. You will see M6 bolts in an 18mm length. He chose to identify the bolt by it's diameter and length, just like the rest of the world does most of the time. You are right. I'll change my reply to read "It might be an U.S. size which might be 6-32 or it might be metric in which case it would be M6-1.0. A U.S. #6 bolt is about half the thickness of a 6mm bolt." Happy now? Nope. Please return to the subject, and change your reply to answer the OP's question, which was "Everything seems to be Grade 5. Is that safe enough, or do I really want to (somehow) find Grade 8?" This will require first identifying the most extreme condition that the bolt will experience as long as the rider can hold on and stay upright. The goal is to determine safe enough, and one is not going to be safe after riding at cruising speed into a wall or curb anyway. Hitting a pothole seems reasonable to me, but whatever. Then calculate the tension on the bolt in that situation, and then compare that to specification for grade 8. But what is the value in stating "Grade 5 should certainly be strong enough to hold the bars on." ? So will a rubber band or some scotch tape, as long as one rides slow on smooth road. But there are grades 8 or 9 that are stronger Yes, the OP knows that, and had to to pose the question "Do I need grade 8?" in the first place. You are describing bolts using diameter and pitch. This is incomplete, as it does not specify the length. Further is is irrelevant since the JIS and ISO standards both specify 1.0 as the standard pitch for 6mm bolts. Nope. A thread is described by two things diameter and number of threads per unit. One can easily buy, for example, a 1/4" thread any where from a quarter of an inch long, or so, to three feet, or more. We are not talking about a thread. If you want to talk length then yes. Again the OP was talking about grade; you faulted him for the way he described the bolt, and I am saying that a)he described it in the same way we all do most of the time, which is not flawed, and b)the quality of this method which you say is a flaw also exists in your claim of what is correct. The fact is that a bolt has three identifying characteristics, and all must be expressed in order to avoid being incomplete, and at times, insufficient. |
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