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#171
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bikelane flamebait and going right
In article ,
Frank Krygowski writes: On Oct 28, 12:59*am, (Tom Keats) wrote: In article , * * * * Frank Krygowski writes: On Oct 27, 12:42*am, (Tom Keats) wrote: In fact, effectively getting around Vancouver on a bicycle involves knowing where are the bike routes, bike lanes, best stretches of arterial streets, back access lanes/alleys and parking lots to cut through. *But it's not a black art. One just rides around, explores, becomes acquainted, and learns. It's rather fun to do so, because our local riding environment is always changing, as new facilities come to the fore. Our metro area has no official bike routes, but those of us that use our bikes for practical uses have found many more-pleasant streets parallel to arterials. *And I've found some interesting cut-throughs. Most of them, I use only rarely, but sometimes it's fun to explore them - like the dirt path the kids made, out the end of the dead-end street that jogs right past the water tower and pops out onto the other street, saving a block or two of riding. I think that if we could interview all the kids in town, we'd soon have a list of hundreds of those things. *Kids are like ants*; they get _everywhere_ eventually. *Their knowledge would be handy for the contribution to a bike map. *(Not as much as they used to be, I fear, but they still know lots of things we adults are too "conventional" to ever figure out.) Bike lanes are ubiquitiously an urban thing, enmeshed in the tangle of routes of all sorts, and often just as valid and useful as a back alley, torn-down gas station or vacant parking lot as a means of getting across town. I suspect many of the folks here expressing their misgivings about bike lanes are thinking in terms of the open road. Of course bike lanes don't belong on the open road. The thick of urban traffic is a different matter. *This is where you can't get much speed up because you'll be stopped by traffic lights every block or two. *Sometimes a rider will opt for an arterial street portion of their route because the grades are easier and the line to the destination is more direct; other times he or she will opt for the parallel streets because they're less inflicted with traffic lights, or because they're quieter. In practice, urban bike lanes are not railway tracks from which riders may not deviate. *Au contraire, they add to, and expand a rider's repertoire of choices of route segments.. In a traditional rectangular street-grid city with fairly dense population and traffic, bike lanes are not limiting. I don't see that bike lanes add to a choice of route segments. If a given street has enough pavement width to be striped with a bike lane stripe, it must have had enough width to safely share with motor vehicles before that stripe was painted. IOW, I can always make the choice to ride there. We have some terrain here in Vanncouver espieally around a certain geolical feature we call Little Mountain (a smallish extinct volcano which we've festooned with much horticulture, canopy weddings, and Tai Chi classes.) There are certain streets which reach across like shoelaces the instep of this abyssmuth mound. Sightlines are horrid, and bike lanes provide a refuge. The advamtage of bike lane stripes is not that they give bicycle riers a place to go, but a place for car drivers to be in (and not be in.) And as I've described upthread, it will have had less glass, gravel and trash along its right side before the stripe was painted. That's one of the reasons I've ridden streets without bike lanes when given the choice. Even on Vancouver's bike-laned streets you'd still legally have your choice. Granted, there are people who actually think "I can't ride a bike on that street because it doesn't have a bike lane." There are all kinds of people who say they'd ride, if only if ... insert excuses here People who will ride, will. People who won't, won't. Can't force 'em, and it wouldn't be right to try to. cheers, Tom -- Nothing is safe from me. I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca |
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#172
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bikelane flamebait and going right
On Oct 29, 3:11*am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article , * * * * Frank Krygowski writes: I don't see that bike lanes add to a choice of route segments. *If a given street has enough pavement width to be striped with a bike lane stripe, it must have had enough width to safely share with motor vehicles before that stripe was painted. *IOW, I can always make the choice to ride there. We have some terrain here in Vanncouver espieally around a certain geolical feature we call Little Mountain (a smallish extinct volcano which we've festooned with much horticulture, canopy weddings, and Tai Chi classes.) *There are certain streets which reach across like shoelaces the instep of this abyssmuth mound. *Sightlines are horrid, and bike lanes provide a refuge. I don't understand. The way I usually deal with bad sightlines is to move to the middle of the lane. The only way a bike lane would help that move would be if it were at lane center. ISTR seeing one photo of a lane-center bike lane, but I've never seen one in real life, and I doubt that's what you're talking about. And if I wanted refuge at the right edge of the road, couldn't I get that without a paint stripe? If the road's wide enough for a striped bike lane, isn't it wide enough without the stripe? - Frank Krygowski |
#173
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bikelane flamebait and going right
Frank Krygowski writes:
On Oct 29, 3:11Â*am, (Tom Keats) wrote: In article , Â* Â* Â* Â* Frank Krygowski writes: I don't see that bike lanes add to a choice of route segments. Â*If a given street has enough pavement width to be striped with a bike lane stripe, it must have had enough width to safely share with motor vehicles before that stripe was painted. Â*IOW, I can always make the choice to ride there. We have some terrain here in Vanncouver espieally around a certain geolical feature we call Little Mountain (a smallish extinct volcano which we've festooned with much horticulture, canopy weddings, and Tai Chi classes.) Â*There are certain streets which reach across like shoelaces the instep of this abyssmuth mound. Â*Sightlines are horrid, and bike lanes provide a refuge. I don't understand. The way I usually deal with bad sightlines is to move to the middle of the lane. The only way a bike lane would help that move would be if it were at lane center. ISTR seeing one photo of a lane-center bike lane, but I've never seen one in real life, and I doubt that's what you're talking about. And if I wanted refuge at the right edge of the road, couldn't I get that without a paint stripe? If the road's wide enough for a striped bike lane, isn't it wide enough without the stripe? - Frank Krygowski I realise this is totally outside of your ability to understand, but the stripe is there to warn cars not to cross it. Hard I know. But do try. |
#174
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bikelane flamebait and going right
On Oct 29, 11:44*am, Simon Lewis wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes: On Oct 29, 3:11*am, (Tom Keats) wrote: In article , * * * * Frank Krygowski writes: I don't see that bike lanes add to a choice of route segments. *If a given street has enough pavement width to be striped with a bike lane stripe, it must have had enough width to safely share with motor vehicles before that stripe was painted. *IOW, I can always make the choice to ride there. We have some terrain here in Vanncouver espieally around a certain geolical feature we call Little Mountain (a smallish extinct volcano which we've festooned with much horticulture, canopy weddings, and Tai Chi classes.) *There are certain streets which reach across like shoelaces the instep of this abyssmuth mound. *Sightlines are horrid, and bike lanes provide a refuge. I don't understand. The way I usually deal with bad sightlines is to move to the middle of the lane. *The only way a bike lane would help that move would be if it were at lane center. *ISTR seeing one photo of a lane-center bike lane, but I've never seen one in real life, and I doubt that's what you're talking about. And if I wanted refuge at the right edge of the road, couldn't I get that without a paint stripe? *If the road's wide enough for a striped bike lane, isn't it wide enough without the stripe? I realise this is totally outside of your ability to understand, but the stripe is there to warn cars not to cross it. Hard I know. But do try. Get serious. (I'd say get civil, but that's wasted on you.) Of course that's the reason for the bike lane stripe - to keep motorists from ever driving on the pavement to its right. But it's worse than useless when a cyclist is not present, because cars on pavement beneficially sweep pavement clean. And when a cyclist is present, cars avoid cyclists, just like they avoid other vehicles and objects. The fear that they won't avoid you is delusional. We don't need paint stripes around every vehicle on the road. In fact, Monderman showed pretty conclusively that we don't need many of the "normal" paint stripes, let alone extra ones. - Frank Krygowski |
#175
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bikelane flamebait and going right
In article ,
Frank Krygowski writes: On Oct 29, 3:11*am, (Tom Keats) wrote: In article , * * * * Frank Krygowski writes: I don't see that bike lanes add to a choice of route segments. *If a given street has enough pavement width to be striped with a bike lane stripe, it must have had enough width to safely share with motor vehicles before that stripe was painted. *IOW, I can always make the choice to ride there. We have some terrain here in Vanncouver espieally around a certain geolical feature we call Little Mountain (a smallish extinct volcano which we've festooned with much horticulture, canopy weddings, and Tai Chi classes.) *There are certain streets which reach across like shoelaces the instep of this abyssmuth mound. *Sightlines are horrid, and bike lanes provide a refuge. I don't understand. Car drivers here hate to cross painted lines. The way I usually deal with bad sightlines is to move to the middle of the lane. I see you've read a page of Robert Hurst's book(s). The only way a bike lane would help that move would be if it were at lane center. Respectfuly ... says who? ISTR seeing one photo of a lane-center bike lane, but I've never seen one in real life, and I doubt that's what you're talking about. Actually, we have those in Vancouver. Vanness St @ Boundary Road springs immediately to mind. We also have "bike boxes" delineated with coloured pavement, and with advanced stop lines allowing bikes to get ahead of the cars. And if I wanted refuge at the right edge of the road, couldn't I get that without a paint stripe? The stripe is reflective paint, easily discerned during a dark and stormy night. Car drivers are loathe to drive across lines on the street. If the road's wide enough for a striped bike lane, isn't it wide enough without the stripe? No. Drivers feel comfortable to steer between painted lines and stay within their own delineated space, and we can use that pyschological effect to our advantage. We can also abuse it to our disadvantage. I think the best approach is to inculcate a culture of sociable consideration of others. That includes urban riders being sociably considerate to urban car drivers. In the past I've seen the opposite too many times. Riders feel the impulse to go, go, go, and will not pull over a little to let a soccer mom minvan go by on a narrow street. Y'know what? On narrower residential streets I've had many oncoming drivers pull over 'cuz they think I'd otherwise dangerously thread the needle between them and the on-street parked cars. And while they're pulling over for me, I'm pulling over for them, and we end up wasting each other's time, because they're expecting me to behave like a stereotypical, selfish, self-centred, inconsiderate, greedy pig, "the street is mine" urban bike rider. If traffic was more sociable & social, there'd be fewer problems. And possibly more solutions. cheers, Tom -- Nothing is safe from me. I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca |
#176
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bikelane flamebait and going right
In article ,
Claus Assmann writes: Tom Keats wrote: In a traditional rectangular street-grid city with fairly dense population and traffic, bike lanes are not limiting. Visit Germany and you will learn that this statement is incorrect ("All generalizations are wrong" :-) Many "Radwege" (separated bike lanes) will force you to make a sharp, short right/left ("S") turn at each crossing, so the corner can be "rounded" for the cars to make their turns. That prevents you from going reasonably fast: you have to check for cars significantly before the crossing because your attention will be needed to follow the lane (where often one or two sign posts or a fence right next to the lane make riding even more "interesting" and force you to slow down even more than usual). Vancouver bike lanes don't force riders to do anything. They are there as options, not as mandates. Urban traffic is not dead-head easy, nor should it be. cheers, Tom -- Nothing is safe from me. I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca |
#177
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bikelane flamebait and going right
On Oct 30, 2:35*am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article , * * * * Frank Krygowski writes: [Tom Keats wrote:] *Sightlines are horrid, and bike lanes provide a refuge. I don't understand. Car drivers here hate to cross painted lines. But again, cyclists are visible, unless they're foolishly in ninja mode. If I'm far enough right on a wide-enough road, I'm in as much of a refuge as a bike lane would be. The way I usually deal with bad sightlines is to move to the middle of the lane. I see you've read a page of Robert Hurst's book(s). And others. And I've learned a lot by experience, and by taking a cycling class. *The only way a bike lane would help that move would be if it were at lane center. Respectfuly ... says who? Well, me, for one. Can you explain how a bike lane at the right makes it easier for a cyclist to move left? I don't see that possibility. And if I wanted refuge at the right edge of the road, couldn't I get that without a paint stripe? The stripe is reflective paint, easily discerned during a dark and stormy night. *Car drivers are loathe to drive across lines on the street. My taillight and reflectors are easily discerned during a dark and stormy night, too. Drivers are loathe to run down cyclists from behind. We know that because of the rarity of that occurrence. If the road's wide enough for a striped bike lane, isn't it wide enough without the stripe? No. Please explain. Five foot bike lane plus ten foot (minimum) traffic lane is fifteen feet of pavement. Take out the stripe and you've got minimum fifteen feet of lane width. I _easily_ share fifteen foot lanes. - Frank Krygowski |
#178
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bikelane flamebait and going right
Frank Krygowski writes:
On Oct 30, 2:35Â*am, (Tom Keats) wrote: In article , Â* Â* Â* Â* Frank Krygowski writes: [Tom Keats wrote:] Â*Sightlines are horrid, and bike lanes provide a refuge. I don't understand. Car drivers here hate to cross painted lines. But again, cyclists are visible, unless they're foolishly in ninja mode. If I'm far enough right on a wide-enough road, I'm in as much of a refuge as a bike lane would be. No you're not. How bloody ridiculous. The white line ensures the car is NOT in your area long before he spots you. Stop talking garbage and think about what you're saying for once. |
#179
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bikelane flamebait and going right
On Oct 30, 3:30*pm, Simon Lewis wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes: But again, cyclists are visible, unless they're foolishly in ninja mode. *If I'm far enough right on a wide-enough road, I'm in as much of a refuge as a bike lane would be. No you're not. [snotty remarks trimmed] The white line ensures the car is NOT in your area long before he spots you. I don't care where the car is long before he gets to me. I care where he is when he passes me. - Frank Krygowski |
#180
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bikelane flamebait and going right
Frank Krygowski writes:
On Oct 30, 3:30Â*pm, Simon Lewis wrote: Frank Krygowski writes: But again, cyclists are visible, unless they're foolishly in ninja mode. Â*If I'm far enough right on a wide-enough road, I'm in as much of a refuge as a bike lane would be. No you're not. [snotty remarks trimmed] The white line ensures the car is NOT in your area long before he spots you. I don't care where the car is long before he gets to me. I care where he is when he passes me. - Frank Krygowski OK .... so lets see if you can see why him being further out a long time before he sees or doesnt see you is safer and puts him a safer place. Please, please tell me you are joking or trolling here. |
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