UPGRADING AN OLDER BIKE

Yes it's a lugged frame Allez, 7 cogs, 2 chain wheels, open cable
duel-pivot side pull brakes, 58cm frame. I'll let you know maybe late
tomorrow what my dealer had to offer as far as changes. I'll also take
some of the info you guys have given me.


Thanks,
Bob

Sheldon's snippets are indented with a single , while my prior snippets are
indented with a .

Sheldon: The brakes are, in all likelihood, single-pivot. Yes, they'll
sorta work, but the Soras are made for the leverage of the
currently-common dual-pivot brakes.

Modern "aero-type" brake levers, whether with or without shifters,
actually provide slightly _more_ mechanical advantage than the old
exposed-cable levers. If that's what he's got, the braking will be
notably _improved_ by using modern levers.

Sounds like he might actually be describing cantilevers, since he's calling
them "open cable dual pivot."

He liked it in 1989, why wouldn't he like it today?

Oh dear; I *loved* my Cinelli in 1974. That bike took me all manner of
places, and I raced my heart off on it. That bike, as they say, had a soul.
It now lives on as my rain bike, and I daresay I don't enjoy it anywhere
near as much as my Trek 5900. It rides like a rock (despite a
considerably-longer wheelbase), is noticeably heavier, and, as I've kept it
pretty retro (seems appropriate), it's got Campy Nuovo Record derailleurs. I
did replace the front brake with a long-reach Shimano dual-pivot, as I found
that, while I can put up with the ride, and I can live (barely) with the
shifting, the braking may very well have become something that could have
been difficult to live with, in a literal sense.

So, if I have such disdain for the way the bike rides, why do I ride it?
Partly because it deserves better than to rust away in the garage, and
partly because the simplicity of the older components are such that all I
have to do is lube the chain with oil before taking it out in the rain, and
if it rains hard enough, it comes back clean! But mostly it's
sentimentality, and it's not like I'm racing anybody when it's 40 degrees
and pouring rain. It's more about laughing at the absurd.

I have a fondness for classic lugged bikes, but it's entirely from an
aesthetic standpoint. I much prefer the ride of a modern lightweight bike,
whether the frame is Reynolds 853 or OCLV carbon 110. I'm also one of those
people who have bought into the idea that carbon forks give a smoother ride.

It depends upon what he might like to spend his money on. In any event,
he should try one of the new-fangled machines to see what's happened over
the years, and figure out if it makes sense for him to spend the money.

Sure, trying things is good, but he should make an informed choice based
on a realistic cost estimate. A new _frame_ as nice as the one he has is
gonna cost him a grand...

A new frame that *looks* as nice would cost him at least a grand, no
question. But as much as we've driven away the aesthetics in modern frames,
we've also seen dramatic improvements in durability (compare how few '853
frames you see with crumpled downtubes to '531 or equivalent?), lower weight
and, in real dollars, substantially lower cost.

If it's all about aesthetics, keep the old bike. But most people with older
bikes will be quite surprised at what's available in the $800 (whole bike,
not just frame) range these days, in terms of function. And the choices have
become endless, as every manufacturer is trying to carve a piece of the road
bike market for themselves these days. If you just get past the strange
labels, there are all manner of bikes suitable for touring, sport riding,
cross, whatever.

The toughest thing the OP is going to have to deal with is finding somebody
at a shop who understands his dream about how he'd like to ride. So often
there's a disconnect between the customer and staff such that the right bike
might be right underneath their nose but nobody sees it.

If the OP were to come into my store, I'd likely suggest that he minimize
expenditures on anything other than fit. Get the current bike set up so it's
enjoyable to ride, fall in love with cycling (again) and then figure out
what sort of money you want to allocate to either upgrades or a new bike.

Sheldon "Not Even A Specialized Dealer" Brown

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Sheldon Brown" wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

... if you want to upgrade to the STI shifting, where you have the
shifting & braking integrated into the same lever, you may need to make
more changes to your bike than is really practical, cost-wise (STI
levers, dual-pivot brakes if you don't have them already, possible new
rear wheel if it won't accommodate at least a 7-speed index-compatible
cassette, and, if front shifting is a priority, either new chainrings or
a crankset... in addition to front & rear derailleurs).

I replied:

That's not reasonable. A 1989 bike is already gonna be 7-speed, and I'm
pretty sure it was Shimano equipped.

If so, all he needs is a new handlebar stem, such as a Nitto Technomic,
($40); a Sora 7-speed STI kit ($130) and new handlebar tape.


Sheldon: The brakes are, in all likelihood, single-pivot. Yes, they'll
sorta work, but the Soras are made for the leverage of the
currently-common dual-pivot brakes.

Modern "aero-type" brake levers, whether with or without shifters,
actually provide slightly _more_ mechanical advantage than the old
exposed-cable levers. If that's what he's got, the braking will be
notably _improved_ by using modern levers.

And I'll stick by my recommendation that, with Shimano STI, front
shifting will definitely be better with ramped & pinned chainrings. Will
it sorta work? Sure, maybe. Will it work as well as stuff that's made to
work together? Absolutely not. Even the front derailleur has changed
significantly vs pre-STI, with most (not all) of the older ones pushing
out and forward (the arm is at an angle not perpendicular to the bike).

STI conversion can be quite tricky on a bike with a triple chainwheel, but
if memory serves this bike has a double. Doubles are WAY less finicky
about that sort of thing.

If he really feels the needs for pins and ramps, we have ramped/pinned 52
tooth 130 BCD chainrings starting at $14.95, so that's hardly a deal
breaker. (There are no ramps/pins, nor any use for them, on the inner
chainring.)

A suitable front derailer can be had for $22, but I very much doubt that
he'll need one.

So I'll respectfully disagree with your statement-

There's no earthly reason to replace the brake calipers, rear wheel,
cassette, chainrings or either derailer unless these parts are worn out
or otherwise damaged.


It all depends upon what the customer is looking for. In my book, what
he's got isn't so terribly bad,

If it's one of those lugged steel Allezes, that's a major understatment in
my book, those were super frames.

but the "improvements" you're suggesting don't bring it up to modern
standards, so he still might be that far away from something he'd really
like. Or not.

He liked it in 1989, why wouldn't he like it today?

It depends upon what he might like to spend his money on. In any event,
he should try one of the new-fangled machines to see what's happened over
the years, and figure out if it makes sense for him to spend the money.

Sure, trying things is good, but he should make an informed choice based
on a realistic cost estimate. A new _frame_ as nice as the one he has is
gonna cost him a grand...

Sheldon "Not Even A Specialized Dealer" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| It is good to learn from your mistakes; |
| It is better to learn from the mistakes of others. |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

On 2 Jan 2005 21:50:39 -0800, "biker bob" wrote:

Yes it's a lugged frame Allez, 7 cogs, 2 chain wheels, open cable
duel-pivot side pull brakes, 58cm frame. I'll let you know maybe late
tomorrow what my dealer had to offer as far as changes. I'll also take
some of the info you guys have given me.

Look, this things just going to cost you a bunch of money. It's worthless
without the 9 or 10 speed rear hubs and STI and all that'll cost you a fortune
to change. Just send it to me, I'll pay shipping and take this burden off your
hands.

Ron

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

The brakes are, in all likelihood, single-pivot. Yes, they'll
sorta work, but the Soras are made for the leverage of the
currently-common dual-pivot brakes.

I wrote:

Modern "aero-type" brake levers, whether with or without shifters,
actually provide slightly _more_ mechanical advantage than the old
exposed-cable levers. If that's what he's got, the braking will be
notably _improved_ by using modern levers.

Mike J.

Sounds like he might actually be describing cantilevers, since he's calling
them "open cable dual pivot."

I didn't say "open cable dual pivot." The Allez had caliper brakes, but
I can't recall whether it had "aero" type brake levers or the older
style where cable housing exits the top of the lever and arches over the
handlebars. Remember those? 1989 was about the time of the transition
to those.

There is absolutely no foundation in the contention that newer brake
levers in any way require dual-pivot sidepulls. I was surprised to see
this from this usually quite reliable source.

He liked it in 1989, why wouldn't he like it today?

Mike:

If it's all about aesthetics, keep the old bike. But most people with older
bikes will be quite surprised at what's available in the $800 (whole bike,
not just frame) range these days, in terms of function. And the choices have
become endless, as every manufacturer is trying to carve a piece of the road
bike market for themselves these days. If you just get past the strange
labels, there are all manner of bikes suitable for touring, sport riding,
cross, whatever.

Sure, but if the OP sinks $200-300 on STIfying and re-fitting his great
old bike, he'll wind up with a great bike and still have $500-600 left
over to spend on Shostakovich CDs or single-malt scotch.

Sheldon "I'd Go For The CDs" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Check out the Shostakovich 24 Preludes & Fugues for Piano, Op. 87. |
| Sort of like "Das Wohltemperierte Klavier" on drugs. Way cool! |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Update on the Allez. Took it to the shop yesterday primarily for a
service and tune up and maybe new brakes. Have also raised the
handlebars 2" and looked at new handlebar stems with different angles.
Want to use mine first before I make anymore changes. They are familiar
with what I might do as far as updates and are willing to do anything I
might want to try. I just want to ride what I have for now and see
where that takes me. With my limited knowledge right now, I sure don't
want to screw anything up. Too bad I'm not on the left or right coast
so I could have one of you guys look things over and work some minor
magic on it. Right now the single malt sounds like a pretty good thing.
Thanks again for the input!!!
Bob