East London Thames River Crossings

Tom Crispin wrote:
Today the lifts to the Greenwich Foot Tunnel were closed. The nearest
toll-free alternative for cyclists is the Rotherhithe Tunnel. However,
that too was closed for northbound traffic. I think that at times like
this, Transport for London really should consider allowing northbound
cycle traffic to use the 20mph restricted Blackwall Tunnel, after all,
the Blackwall Tunnel was specifically built for pedestrian, cyclists
and horse use.

so the greenwich foot tunnel is open, the woolwich tunnel is open, the
woolwich ferry is running all the bridges are open and you still want more,
what about a sedan chair to take you from your front gate to the other side
of the river? Surely the best thing to do, given the dearth of convenient
crossings is to move, or ensure that you don't need to cross the river.

"Mrcheerful" wrote in message
news:cgC0o.237672$tH4.145303@hurricane...
Tom Crispin wrote:
Today the lifts to the Greenwich Foot Tunnel were closed. The nearest
toll-free alternative for cyclists is the Rotherhithe Tunnel. However,
that too was closed for northbound traffic. I think that at times like
this, Transport for London really should consider allowing northbound
cycle traffic to use the 20mph restricted Blackwall Tunnel, after all,
the Blackwall Tunnel was specifically built for pedestrian, cyclists
and horse use.

so the greenwich foot tunnel is open, the woolwich tunnel is open, the
woolwich ferry is running all the bridges are open and you still want
more, what about a sedan chair to take you from your front gate to the
other side of the river? Surely the best thing to do, given the dearth of
convenient crossings is to move, or ensure that you don't need to cross
the river.

Or use the tube or bus like normal people.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:16:57 +0100, JNugent
wrote:

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 01:20:30 +0100, JNugent
wrote:

Tom Crispin wrote:

Today the lifts to the Greenwich Foot Tunnel were closed. The nearest
toll-free alternative for cyclists is the Rotherhithe Tunnel. However,
that too was closed for northbound traffic. I think that at times like
this, Transport for London really should consider allowing northbound
cycle traffic to use the 20mph restricted Blackwall Tunnel, after all,
the Blackwall Tunnel was specifically built for pedestrian, cyclists
and horse use.
Cycling isn't allowed in the Greenwich *Foot* Tunnel anyway.

I am not convinced you are entirely correct.

Cycling in the Foot Tunnel is certainly selfish when there are lots of
pedestrians around, and there are plenty of signs saying 'No cycling'.
However, it takes a by-law to make the riding of bicycles on a footway
that is not by the side of the road a criminal matter, and I have not
seen any evidence that such a by-law for the Greenwich or Woolwich
Foot Tunnels exist.

That is no way proves that cycling is permitted, only that I am not
*convinced* that cycling in the foot tunnel is illegal.

So how does the closure cause any disadvantage to cyclists (other than
meaning they have to carry their bikes up and down the staircases as well as
push them through the tunnel)?

I think that you have answered your own question. Cyclists unable to
carry their bikes up and down the shafts were not able to divert
northbound to the Rotherhithe Tunnel.

It does seem odd that you "wonder" that the Blackwall Tunnel is not opened to
cyclists whilst the Greenwich *FOOT* Tunnel lifts are out of action, because
it isn't long ago that you were insisting that due to some alleged lack of
regulation and/or signage, the Blackwall Tunnel (northbound) is not closed to
sycling in any case.

If you can be wrong on that, you can be wrong on the question of whether
cycling is permitted in the Greenwich *FOOT* Tunnel.

The northbound Blackwall Tunnel opened to horse, pedestrian, cycle and
motor traffic in May 1897. There is a sign at the south end of the
northbound tunnel, no cycling except mopeds.
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall8.jpg

However, on the main approach to the Blackwall Tunnel, once clear of
the section which used to be motorway, there is no indication of a
bicycle ban:

Start of A102 - used to be A102(M)
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall0.jpg
End of what used to be the A102(M)
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall1.jpg
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall2.jpg
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall3.jpg
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall4.jpg

Plenty of prohibition notices, but no cyclist prohibition notices.

However, the southbound tunnel has plenty of cyclist prohibition
notices:
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall5.jpg
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall6.jpg
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall7.jpg

During the Blackwall Tunnel refurbishment works northbound traffic is
being diverted via the southbound tunnel which clearly does have a
cyclist prohibition.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:38:15 +0100, Tony Dragon
wrote:

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 08:05:23 +0100, "Bill" wrote:

"Tom Crispin" wrote in message
...
Today the lifts to the Greenwich Foot Tunnel were closed. The nearest
toll-free alternative for cyclists is the Rotherhithe Tunnel. However,
that too was closed for northbound traffic. I think that at times like
this, Transport for London really should consider allowing northbound
cycle traffic to use the 20mph restricted Blackwall Tunnel, after all,
the Blackwall Tunnel was specifically built for pedestrian, cyclists
and horse use.
Can cyclists not use the Woolwich Ferry. I haven't been down that way for
30 years so things may have changed!!

Yes, cyclists can use the Woolwich Ferry - but only when the Thames is
fog free, the crew aren't on strike, the ferrys' aren't broke and it
is inside the ferrys' limited hours of operation. Even then there are
often lengthy delays.

Nevertheless, if you ignorethe above and the surly attitude of the
crew, the Woolwich Ferry is a delight for cyclists to use.

So the same restrictions as for cars then.

Car drivers have the alternative of the Blackwall Tunnel to travel
southbound, and the Dartford River Crossing is just half a gallon of
fuel diversion.

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 13:16:08 +0100, "Mrcheerful"
wrote:

what about a sedan chair to take you from your front gate to the other side
of the river?

Funny you should say that!
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...l/cablecar.pdf

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:16:57 +0100, JNugent
wrote:

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 01:20:30 +0100, JNugent
wrote:

Tom Crispin wrote:

Today the lifts to the Greenwich Foot Tunnel were closed. The nearest
toll-free alternative for cyclists is the Rotherhithe Tunnel. However,
that too was closed for northbound traffic. I think that at times like
this, Transport for London really should consider allowing northbound
cycle traffic to use the 20mph restricted Blackwall Tunnel, after all,
the Blackwall Tunnel was specifically built for pedestrian, cyclists
and horse use.
Cycling isn't allowed in the Greenwich *Foot* Tunnel anyway.
I am not convinced you are entirely correct.

Cycling in the Foot Tunnel is certainly selfish when there are lots of
pedestrians around, and there are plenty of signs saying 'No cycling'.
However, it takes a by-law to make the riding of bicycles on a footway
that is not by the side of the road a criminal matter, and I have not
seen any evidence that such a by-law for the Greenwich or Woolwich
Foot Tunnels exist.

That is no way proves that cycling is permitted, only that I am not
*convinced* that cycling in the foot tunnel is illegal.

So how does the closure cause any disadvantage to cyclists (other than
meaning they have to carry their bikes up and down the staircases as well as
push them through the tunnel)?
I think that you have answered your own question. Cyclists unable to
carry their bikes up and down the shafts were not able to divert
northbound to the Rotherhithe Tunnel.
It does seem odd that you "wonder" that the Blackwall Tunnel is not opened to
cyclists whilst the Greenwich *FOOT* Tunnel lifts are out of action, because
it isn't long ago that you were insisting that due to some alleged lack of
regulation and/or signage, the Blackwall Tunnel (northbound) is not closed to
sycling in any case.

If you can be wrong on that, you can be wrong on the question of whether
cycling is permitted in the Greenwich *FOOT* Tunnel.

The northbound Blackwall Tunnel opened to horse, pedestrian, cycle and
motor traffic in May 1897. There is a sign at the south end of the
northbound tunnel, no cycling except mopeds.
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall8.jpg

However, on the main approach to the Blackwall Tunnel, once clear of
the section which used to be motorway, there is no indication of a
bicycle ban:

That doesn't matter. If cycling is prohibited on the part that used to have
motorway status, then since that is the only approach you are describing, the
tunnel cannot be reached without passing a sign that prohibits cycling.

Start of A102 - used to be A102(M)
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall0.jpg

And there's a sign right there, prohibiting pedestrians and cyclists from
proceeding onto the A102 from the A2. They must use the A2 sliproad.

End of what used to be the A102(M)
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall1.jpg

That doesn't matter. You can't get to there without failing to comply with
the prohibition of cycling on the former A102(M).

http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall2.jpg
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall3.jpg
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall4.jpg

Plenty of prohibition notices, but no cyclist prohibition notices.

So why do you take issue with cycling prohibition in the northbound tunnel if
(as you claim), cycling isn't prohibited in that tunnel, and is only
prohibited on the approach road, A102?

Why don't you just use that tunnel?

However, the southbound tunnel has plenty of cyclist prohibition
notices:
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall5.jpg
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall6.jpg
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...blackwall7.jpg

During the Blackwall Tunnel refurbishment works northbound traffic is
being diverted via the southbound tunnel which clearly does have a
cyclist prohibition.

So which is it?

Is cycling prohibited or not? If it isn't, your complaint about the lack of
the Rotherhithe Tunnel for cyclists is looking less solid.

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:38:15 +0100, Tony Dragon
wrote:

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 08:05:23 +0100, "Bill" wrote:

"Tom Crispin" wrote in message
...
Today the lifts to the Greenwich Foot Tunnel were closed. The nearest
toll-free alternative for cyclists is the Rotherhithe Tunnel. However,
that too was closed for northbound traffic. I think that at times like
this, Transport for London really should consider allowing northbound
cycle traffic to use the 20mph restricted Blackwall Tunnel, after all,
the Blackwall Tunnel was specifically built for pedestrian, cyclists
and horse use.
Can cyclists not use the Woolwich Ferry. I haven't been down that way for
30 years so things may have changed!!
Yes, cyclists can use the Woolwich Ferry - but only when the Thames is
fog free, the crew aren't on strike, the ferrys' aren't broke and it
is inside the ferrys' limited hours of operation. Even then there are
often lengthy delays.

Nevertheless, if you ignorethe above and the surly attitude of the
crew, the Woolwich Ferry is a delight for cyclists to use.
So the same restrictions as for cars then.

Car drivers have the alternative of the Blackwall Tunnel to travel
southbound, and the Dartford River Crossing is just half a gallon of
fuel diversion.

That's £3 + £1.50 unless the journey is done late at night.

If they charged you £4.50 to cross the Thames one way, would you consider
that fair?

On Jul 18, 6:56*am, Doug wrote:
On 18 July, 01:10, Tom Crispin
wrote: Today the lifts to the Greenwich Foot Tunnel were closed. The nearest
toll-free alternative for cyclists is the Rotherhithe Tunnel. However,
that too was closed for northbound traffic. I think that at times like
this, Transport for London really should consider allowing northbound
cycle traffic to use the 20mph restricted Blackwall Tunnel, after all,
the Blackwall Tunnel was specifically built for pedestrian, cyclists
and horse use.

This clearly illustrates the dearth of river crossings for cyclists in
relation to those for motorists. No surprise there then, as usual.

UK Radical Campaigns.http://www.zing.icom43.net
All public road users are equal but some are more equal than others.

Both cyclists & motorists may use the Greenwich tunnel.

JNugent wrote:
Tom Crispin wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:38:15 +0100, Tony Dragon
wrote:

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 08:05:23 +0100, "Bill" wrote:

"Tom Crispin" wrote in
message ...
Today the lifts to the Greenwich Foot Tunnel were closed. The nearest
toll-free alternative for cyclists is the Rotherhithe Tunnel.
However,
that too was closed for northbound traffic. I think that at times
like
this, Transport for London really should consider allowing northbound
cycle traffic to use the 20mph restricted Blackwall Tunnel, after
all,
the Blackwall Tunnel was specifically built for pedestrian, cyclists
and horse use.
Can cyclists not use the Woolwich Ferry. I haven't been down that
way for 30 years so things may have changed!!
Yes, cyclists can use the Woolwich Ferry - but only when the Thames is
fog free, the crew aren't on strike, the ferrys' aren't broke and it
is inside the ferrys' limited hours of operation. Even then there are
often lengthy delays.

Nevertheless, if you ignorethe above and the surly attitude of the
crew, the Woolwich Ferry is a delight for cyclists to use.
So the same restrictions as for cars then.

Car drivers have the alternative of the Blackwall Tunnel to travel
southbound, and the Dartford River Crossing is just half a gallon of
fuel diversion.

That's £3 + £1.50 unless the journey is done late at night.

If they charged you £4.50 to cross the Thames one way, would you
consider that fair?

And there is no charge for cyclists.

--
Tony Dragon

Tom Crispin wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 13:16:08 +0100, "Mrcheerful"
wrote:

what about a sedan chair to take you from your front gate to the other side
of the river?

Funny you should say that!
http://www.britishschoolofcycling.co...l/cablecar.pdf

And you would not be allowed to cycle on that, except perhaps on the
suspension wire.

--
Tony Dragon