700/23 vs 700/25 tires ?

On Mar 7, 3:51*am, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 17:29:26 -0800 (PST), Bret
wrote:

Yes, it climbed Brandon Gap. In 1987 I won that stage in the 3's by
taking a risk and attacking the last steep pitch in the big ring.

Dude! *

I was in the field in that, in the 3s, I think. *I got sixth or
seventh on one of the hilly road stages (maybe there was only one --
that is, it was a three-stage race maybe that year) but never found
out since it was taking soooo long to wrap up results. *There was half
a bike length between me and the guy behind me and 5 or 10 lengths to
the guy in front of me. *This was a stage finishing not at the very
top but on the flats next to the parking lot below that.

That sounds like the same race. The finish was at the Snowshed lodge
which was on a flat section above a steep pitch but short of the top.
Event Services under exposed their film for the 3's finish and didn't
have a backup plan. They knew I had won but couldn't figure out the
rest. The officials just stalled until everyone left. I waited for
about five hours before giving up. The results that were eventually
produced were protested by mail. I think I finally got a check months
later and it bounced.

Were you at Sunapee the next week? I won that race too from a 2-man
break with a City Bank rider.

Bret

In article
,
Bret wrote:

Campy lost a lot of market share in the 80's due to poor shifting
performance. Lots of people switched to Shimano D-A or Sun Tour
Superbe once the overall group quality became competitive. I used
both in the mid-80's. Sun Tour failed to keep up with Shimano's SIS
indexing system (and STI later) and that's when Shimano began to
dominate. Campy was able to compete again on performance when the Sun
Tour patents expired and they executed well with their Ergo levers.

That's partly correct but there's much more to it.

From what I've read in various places, Campy failed to make the change
when the bike industry became more globalized and bike production
centered in Asia. They were not OEM-friendly (shipping their product to
manufacturers individually boxed just like you would buy it in the bike
shop, for example); they did not have a broad product line with multiple
price points (basically for a long time they had Nuovo Record/Super
Record and crap). So, you basically found Campy stuff on small volume
European makers' bikes, French stuff (Huret, Stronglight, etc.) on large
volume European makers' bikes, and Sun Tour or Shimano on the vast
majority of bikes sold in the largest market- the US (where the Campy
mystique mattered little since pro bike racing- Campy's main marketing
strategy- was all but unknown here).

Shimano and Sun Tour both attended to the needs of manufacturers,
especially Asian manufacturers who adopted the Henry Ford model rather
than the artisan model. Shimano and Sun Tour packaged in cases rather
than boxes, reducing labor time spend pulling parts out of cute little
cardboard boxes. Shimano in particular did design development aimed at
solving problems faced by manufacturers (e.g. cartridge BBs) that
reduced labor time and costs.

Shimano out-hustled and out-muscled Sun Tour. Shimano also developed
in-house manufacturing capacity whereas Sun tour outsourced much of
their manufacturing (cranks were made by Sugino, for example). Shimano
was able to capitalize on economies of scale better, which allowed
products at lower price points that still worked well. Shimano was just
better focused and more aggressive, and on the whole the world rewards
aggressiveness.

Shimano also out-hustled and out-muscled Campy, pushing into Europe and
pro bike racing. They sponsored Freddy Maertens' team and he won a lot
of races on their equipment. That got some notice (and even more when
Maertens alleged that Merckx screwed him over in the World Championships
at the behest of Campagnolo. Read Maertens's autobiography sometime-
it's a masterpiece of bad decisions and paranoia).

Technologically Shimano got indexing right first (well, Sturmey Archer,
Sachs, etc. had indexing decades earlier and there were some one-off
indexing systems developed by French constructeurs in the 30s and 40s,
but that always gets overlooked in these discussion). Sun Tour
initially got indexing wrong as did Campy, and that hurt them.

Along about that time came the MTB boom, in which Campy floundered badly
and Sun Tour and Shimano, especially the latter, did well. That gave
the Asian makers much more visible exposure to the mass market, and when
road bikes became popular again many people looked for Shimano
components and did not see those products as second-best to Campy.

That said, I still prefer Campy over Shimano, but the bikes I ride most
have old Sun Tour (or a Sachs 3 speed hub). When I raced, I liked the
way the Ergo system worked better than how STI worked, plus I grew up
with some of the Campy mystique. I just built up a bike with my old
Campy Chorus Ergo stuff and am looking forward to using it again. But
my Nuovo Record and Super Record derailleurs have been in a box for many
years. ;-) The Sun Tour stuff works *so* much better.

In article ,
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 12:26:43 -0800 (PST), Bret
wrote:

Now that I think about it. That second picture is from a hillclimb
TT (Cat 3 Killington Prologue) where I won by 1 sec in a race that
lasted slightly under eight minutes. That's a .2% margin. If I had
carried a water bottle I probably wouldn't have won.

Frank's probably going to say that since that is a time trial is
proves his point.

I doubt it. Frank's on vacation.

In article ,
"Sandy" wrote:

wrote in message
.
..
On 7 Mar., 01:55, Tom Sherman
wrote:
"jeffreybike" wrote:
Is there any real difference between 23mm and 25mm tires as far
as speed. Will 2mm make you that slower or faster? thanks, Jeff

Should have skipped the thanks, since no good answer has been
provided as of yet.

-- Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007 LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST -
datakoll

I have been collecting arguments to support my choice of 25 mm
tires for six years, and I think I have good reasons to believe the
wider tires make me faster in the long run. There is a theoretical
advantage in less RR with the wider tire, (due to less deformation
of the rubber). German Tour Magazin has several times documented
this advantage in tests. This very small speed advantage is
perhaps lost again due to a marginally higher weight and a
marginaly larger wind resistance with the wider tire. I haven't
seen that documented in tests - but I believe the opposite factors
must bring the total effect very close to zero. You can however
clearly feel the difference in comfort, and as the wider tire will
make you more sustainable, I am personally convinced that they make
me faster by the end of the day.

On the other hand the 25 mm tires cost more - they are never on
sale - so if I calculate the short time I must work to pay for the
wider tire, the time advantage is lost again.

Although the facts leave plenty of room for your personal belief, I
think my answer to your question isn't so bad, maybe even quite
good.

There are rather few tires which are offered in identical models and
in these two sizes.

Continental, Panaracer, Avocet, Michelin certainly offer tires in these
two sizes that otherwise appear identical; IIRC so does Schwalbe.

Sizes larger than these tend to start using heavier cords in the casings
due to higher casing tension; to my observation larger size tires also
tend to have thicker rubber tread and more pronounced tread patterns.
Even there there are some exceptions (the Panaracer Pasela, for example,
and much of the old Avocet line of tires).

In addition, the nominal sizes. which vary by manufacturer, don't
correspond to theoretical measurements, but to real ones.

Did you mis-state that sentence? It appears to be at odds with reality.
And you also have to bear in mind that the effective size of tires
varies between rims of different width.

In article ,
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 21:13:04 -0600, "Sandy" wrote:

There are rather few tires which are offered in identical models and
in these two sizes. With the larger tire may be a plus in comfort,
perhaps rolling resistance, but these will be not the ones typically
compared. A Vittoria Rubino Pro 25 can be just as commonly compared
to a 23 of the same model, but may not compare positively to a
Vittoria EVO-KX of the same size with regard to the same elements
noted.

As I said, earlier in this thread, this all depends on rider weight,
the roads they ride on and the speed and circumstances in which they
ride. What is right for a 100 pound woman is not ideal for a 200
pound person. What is ideal in a time trial on good roads is
probably not as good, or even as fast for a bumpy road race.

Hey! Something we agree on!

On Mar 6, 7:55*pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
"jeffreybike" wrote:
Is there any real difference between 23mm and 25mm tires as far as
speed. Will 2mm make you that slower or faster?
thanks, Jeff

Should have skipped the thanks, since no good answer has been provided
as of yet.


Bad questions reap a bountiful harvest of bad answers,
and predicating it on a false dichotomy is like slowly moving
upstream with a long line of hooks out.

The answer is 35.

In article
,
Bret wrote:

On Mar 6, 8:48*am, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,



*Bret wrote:
On Mar 5, 7:31*pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article

om,

*Bret wrote:
On Mar 4, 5:54*pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article

ps.c om,

*Bret wrote:
On Mar 3, 5:27*pm, Tim McNamara
wrote:
In article

roup s.co m,

*Bret wrote:
If you have the physical ability

Bingo. *The key to racing success. *That and tactics.

I believe that there are key moments where the bike can
make a difference. Frank dodged that part of my post.

"Believe" being the operative word. *As Ben has pointed out
very well, it can't be proven.

Another example, in a mountain road race I once summited
Wolf Creek pass, an eight mile climb, well down on the
race leaders, but only 20 seconds down on a strong chase
group that eventually rolled up everyone in front of
them. It wouldn't have taken much of a difference for me
to have been at the front of that race.

It often seems like the guys who beat us do so by that 1%
gap which we *ought* to be able to overcome with a lighter
bike, or a little more training, etc. *It's often a
self-delusion. *The guys who beat us ride just hard enough
to beat us- there being no reason to ride harder than that-
but might have 15% capacity left untapped while we are at
100%.

This is not true in a photo finish situation. Both riders
will be at 100% unless one has misjudge the finish.

Which are rare except in professional cycling, and even then
the winning rider may be at 101% of his competitor's capacity
and have 10% of his own left in reserve. *Erik Zabel could
outsprint me with one foot unclipped and keeping 50% of his
reserve in a photo finish.

I don't see any logic to what you are saying here. Nobody
intentionally leaves a race finish that close. Ask Beppe.

Unless someone is serving their ego, there's no reason to expend
any more energy than necessary. *I've been in and seen plenty of
races where the winner basically cruises home while everybody else
is killing themselves. *Winning a crit by 30 seconds is not "more
win" than winning it by 1 second.

Stage racing where the GC is determined by time changes the
calculus on that, of course. *But people racing for stage wins and
people racing for GC have different strategies.

You seem to have lost track of what we were talking about. A 1 second
win is not very close in the context of this discussion.

The principle holds, Bret, if we are talking about a half a wheel versus
10 bike lengths. There's no reason to expend more energy than
necessary. In head-to-head-the-strongest-one-wins scenarios, it's quite
possible that the winner has much more in reserve than the loser.

In article ,
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 07:02:29 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

I agree, that is information. But I disagree on whether it's
information on much beyond fashion - at least, in many cases.

Over the years we've seen fashions change for racers. For many,
many years Campy rear derailleurs were firmly, strongly in fashion,
when I couldn't afford them. I was using a cheap Sun Tour rear
changer. And I recall watching guys on the expensive bikes grinding
their way through shifts, missing some on the way, when my Sun Tour
crisply did exactly what I told it to. The difference in shifting
was night and day.

If you had gone by your standards, you'd conclude that Campy gave an
advantage over cheap Sun Tour. You'd have been wrong.

And the reason you'd have been wrong is, partly, what I've been
saying all along. The few guys racing on Sun Tour had a shifting
advantage. But that shifting advantage was negligible in the final
outcome. Things like power, endurance, tactics, road roughness,
looking at their watch at the wrong time, and other more important
or more random events overpowered the Sun Tour's ability to shift
more quickly and reliably.

So it's mainly fashion and so we can go back a couple decades,
undoing whatever many tiny choices in what is thought to make bikes
faster and that'll work just as well.

Baloney. Pure baloney.

In races without depth super-talented guys might win on 1980s stuff.
In races with a lot of depth, or with very demanding conditions, the
difference woud show. . . .

OK, then. Prove it. You keep making these assertions without backing
them up with any facts. Provide us with facts. Your continual "is too"
approach is not convincing.

In article
],
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

In article ,
Tom Sherman wrote:

Andrew Muzi wrote:
wrote:
Dear John, Good heavens, more self-effacing modesty!

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
Dear Cowardly Carl I'm especially not modest and I'm not
especially immodest. But I'm fairly honest and open -- far more
than you. I don't hide information about myself. You should
try being more open.

wrote:
Dear John, Please, keep telling us more about yourself and your
many virtues. You set a shining example for all of us, though
perhaps not quite in the way that you imagine.

Could you two just rent a room already?

You should have offered to sell them a tandem - never pass up a
marketing opportunity!

Tom, I swear the moment I read that, the theme song from "The Odd
Couple" played in my head.

LOL!

In article ,
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

On Fri, 06 Mar 2009 10:03:21 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote:

You're projecting your antipathy onto others,

You're apparently not in touch with your emotions. But it comes
through.

You can tell how I feel from all the way over there? Impressive!
Jeez, JT, there's a broader range of human feeling than you seem to
think.

I am- I hope- being logically rigorous and asking you to do the same.
If you interpret that as antipathy, there's nothing I can do about that.

It came through laughably in your recent comment to me that I was
only saying something because I agreed with Chung.

That's not what I said; go back and re-read.