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Recumbent Accident Rates?



 
 
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  #161  
Old May 11th 11, 02:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°[_2_]
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Posts: 1,270
Default Don't we need Teflonâ„¢-coated bullets?

On 5/9/2011 4:02 PM, Tom Lake wrote:
On Sat, 07 May 2011 15:54:02 -0700, in rec.bicycles.tech SMS
wrote:

Most of us here have had them filtered out for so long that we only see
their gems when a newbie falls into the trap of responding to them.
There are. You should see ba.broadcast!

For Usenet to retain any value at all you can't fall into the trap of
letting those that get caught up in their own agenda dominate and
destroy the group. You filter them out and you move on.


You know, Mr. ... Scharf??? That's about the most intelligent posting
I've seen yet.

You see, I'm basically just on my way to Austrailia... kinda passing
through, you know. I never said I was here to stay.

This looks like a good time to seek my fortunes elsewhere. I think
we've about beaten this dead horse into the ground... I doubt I have
convinced anyone to wear a helmet; actually, I don't think I ever
tried to do that.

Bye.


Cut and run!

: Here, this is for you...

:: What? A silver bullet?

: Naah... some crap from a gumball machine; I don't need it.

Hi-ho Silver... AWAY!!!


Do let the door hit you on the arse.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
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  #162  
Old May 11th 11, 02:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°[_2_]
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Posts: 1,270
Default Should you wear a bicycle foam hat while riding a recumbent?

On 5/9/2011 9:17 AM, SMS wrote:
On 5/5/2011 6:15 PM, Tom Lake wrote:

It's not a "fault" of the study any more than an inability to fly is a
fault of a tractor. It's simply a property of that type of study; you
start with existing data and study them. I'd bet half of the studies
published on any topic use post facto data. I think you'll find that
*all* helmet studies are thus. That doesn't make them flawed; they
have their limitations; however, they're the best we've got or ever
will have. It's a stronger design than a whole-pop because I can
scale the results; whole-pops only apply locally.


For vehicle crash-worthiness there are some tests that are designed to
simulate a real accident with the use of crash test dummies. But of
course what is also looked at is post facto data on accident data,
comparing the use and non-use of safety equipment by accident victims.

Be very careful about those people that misuse whole population studies
with claims that they are inconclusive because out extenuating factors,
because often those extenuating factors are things they made up out of
thin air. For example, there is absolutely _no_ evidence that cycling
rates fall after helmet laws are introduced, but that does not stop the
birther-like claims that the only reason that whole population studies
show a decrease in injuries and fatalities is that cycling rates went
down. Of course first they started out denying any decrease, then when
they couldn't deny it any longer they came up with a rationalization for
it. This is covered in Myth 8 at
http://sites.google.com/site/bicyclehelmetmythsandfacts/#TOC-Myth-8:-Studies-show-that-when-helm


Before the proliferation of web sites where actual scientific and
statistical data was available for all to see, Usenet had a lot more
"helmet wars." Now, with the data readily available, you see just how
furious people like Frank and Phil become when the facts don't agree
with their agenda. The "Bicycle Helmet Myths and Facts" web site that I
started as an effort to have a central repository for all the myths that
the AHZs try to put out there, and the actual facts, has been a big help
with reducing the helmet war threads.


Someone, please direct Scharf to competent psychological help. He has
lost touch with reality.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #163  
Old May 11th 11, 02:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°[_2_]
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Posts: 1,270
Default Does it ever end?

On 5/8/2011 8:27 PM, Tom Lake wrote:
[...]
I'll bet you could fill a *book* with the stuff I don't know.


And sticking just to the topic of bicycle foam hats!

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #164  
Old May 11th 11, 02:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°[_2_]
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Default It's worse than that - he's dead Jim!

On 5/9/2011 8:34 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
[...]
Why only death statistics? The main reason is that they are kept very
carefully. Another important reason is that there is little doubt or
debate about whether a death has occurred.[...]


Except for Elvis Presley.

Or, on a more serious note, Usama bin Laden.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #165  
Old May 11th 11, 02:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°[_2_]
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Posts: 1,270
Default Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?

On 5/9/2011 12:35 AM, Phil W Lee wrote:
Tom considered Sun, 08 May 2011 20:21:05 -0500 the
perfect time to write:
[...]
I once wrote a grant wherein we promoted helmets.


So you were one of the stupid *******s that came up with that bull****
instead of something that might have actually made a difference, like
subsidised cycle training for schoolkids.[...]


The stupid *******s are offended at the comparison.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #166  
Old May 11th 11, 02:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Default Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?

On May 10, 1:20*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,
*Frank Krygowski wrote:



On May 10, 4:45*am, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,
*Frank Krygowski wrote:


On May 9, 4:31*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,
*Frank Krygowski wrote:


Not surprising. *We had over 100 years of bike racing without helmets,
with fatal head injuries always being extremely rare. Think of the
tens of millions of miles ridden in the Tour de France since its
inception. *IIRC, there were a total of three deaths. *One was drug-
induced heart failure.


Fail. Stop spreading that rumor.
The death had nothing to do with drugs.
Unfortunately everybody says so.
He died because the race organizers
severely restricted the amount of
water a racer could have, and the
racer died from dehydration.


Really? *That's the first time I've ever heard that version. *Can you
give the source?


Can you support your version?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Simpson


"Tom Simpson (30 November 1937–13 July 1967) was the most successful
English road racing cyclist of the post-war years. He infamously died
of exhaustion on the slopes of Mont Ventoux during the 13th stage of
the Tour de France in 1967. The post mortem found that he had taken
amphetamines and alcohol, a diuretic combination which proved fatal
when combined with the heat, the hard climb of the Ventoux and a
stomach complaint."


This isn't a major point of mine either way. *He certainly didn't die
of a head injury.


Why doesn't the article mention the severe restriction
on water intake imposed by the race organizers?


I don't know. I've never seen an article that mentioned that. Have
you got one?

- Frank Krygowski
  #167  
Old May 11th 11, 03:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Barry[_3_]
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Posts: 111
Default Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Simpson

"Tom Simpson (30 November 1937–13 July 1967) was the most successful
English road racing cyclist of the post-war years. He infamously died
of exhaustion on the slopes of Mont Ventoux during the 13th stage of
the Tour de France in 1967. The post mortem found that he had taken
amphetamines and alcohol, a diuretic combination which proved fatal
when combined with the heat, the hard climb of the Ventoux and a
stomach complaint."


This isn't a major point of mine either way. He certainly didn't die
of a head injury.


Why doesn't the article mention the severe restriction
on water intake imposed by the race organizers?


The Wikipedia article does say:

"Tour organisers limited each rider to four bottles (bidons) of water, about
two litres - the effects of dehydration being poorly understood. During races,
riders raided roadside bars for drinks, and filled their bottles from
fountains."


  #168  
Old May 11th 11, 09:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Michael Press
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Posts: 9,202
Default Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?

In article ,
"Barry" wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Simpson


"Tom Simpson (30 November 1937ˆ13 July 1967) was the most successful
English road racing cyclist of the post-war years. He infamously died
of exhaustion on the slopes of Mont Ventoux during the 13th stage of
the Tour de France in 1967. The post mortem found that he had taken
amphetamines and alcohol, a diuretic combination which proved fatal
when combined with the heat, the hard climb of the Ventoux and a
stomach complaint."


This isn't a major point of mine either way. He certainly didn't die
of a head injury.


Why doesn't the article mention the severe restriction
on water intake imposed by the race organizers?


The Wikipedia article does say:

"Tour organisers limited each rider to four bottles (bidons) of water, about
two litres - the effects of dehydration being poorly understood. During races,
riders raided roadside bars for drinks, and filled their bottles from
fountains."


Even "the effects of dehydration being poorly understood"
is white wash. The effects of dehydration have always
been well understood, because people have always been
dying from it.

--
Michael Press
  #169  
Old May 11th 11, 09:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
James[_8_]
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Posts: 6,153
Default Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?

On May 11, 6:21*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article ,


Even "the effects of dehydration being poorly understood"
is white wash. The effects of dehydration have always
been well understood, because people have always been
dying from it.


I feel I'm dying from it right now! Refill my glass of wine
please....

JS.

  #170  
Old May 12th 11, 01:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Dan O
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Posts: 6,098
Default Should you wear a helmet while riding a recumbent?

On May 7, 3:21 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On May 7, 3:25 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:



On May 7, 11:05 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Ah, Stephen, still posting absolute lies!


To review (not that it should be necessary): I did not begin by
deciding I was against bike helmets. In fact, I was once in favor of
bike helmets. I wore one for almost every ride, and advised others to
do the same. I bought the line that bicycling was a significant
source of serious head injury, and that helmets greatly reduced that
risk.


It was only after I began reading the research papers on the subject
(both pro and con), and digging for data on comparative risk, that I
changed my mind, based entirely on factual evidence. I found that the
risk had been grossly exaggerated, the claims of efficacy wildly
overstated, and the specifications and certification tests of bike
helmets laughably inadequate.


Populaiton studies say nothing about whether a helmet is a smart
choice for an individual rider whose risk pattern may be different
from the norm, e.g., someone who rides fast or rides off road or who
rides in inclement weather including ice and snow or who rides in
close proximity to large numbers of other riders. A person may
perceive a risk that actually exists for him or her, and you cannot
assume that a person is being hysterical or helmet whore or whatever
without seeing that person's riding environment.


There's some truth to that. If you'll notice, I generally talk about
the low danger level of ordinary cycling.

My riding tends to be reasonably cautious. That is, I've never been
one for trying to see how fast I could take a curve. I've exceeded 50
mph only once on a bike. I long ago gave up really scary mountain
biking. I seldom ride when roads are icy or really snowy. I watch
pavement conditions like a hawk.

I think the best chance of justifying bike helmet use, based on their
specifications and on the likelihood of head impact, would be
enthusiastic mountain biking (as opposed to just cruising in the
woods). Second best would be track racing. The hills on Portland's
west side when slicked down with winter rain could possibly be
another; I won't pass judgment. I've ridden those only in dry
weather.


So how's your love life? ;-)



I'm getting older every day, too, but seriously, dude - if that's how
it was to Ride Bike, I wouldn't see the point in swinging my leg over
the saddle in the first place.

But I think it's obvious that the advice given by helmet promoters,
that cyclists should wear a helmet "... every time they ride their
bike..." is silly. The level of risk certainly doesn't justify that.
And the measured results from decades of such promotion show that such
advice, to the considerable degree it's been followed, hasn't worked
to a detectable degree.


I sure wish you'd take this argument to those who say, "cyclists
should wear a helmet every time they ride their bike". Does Jay say
that? Do I? No, we both merely say that - at least sometimes - we
consider a helmet worthwhile protection.

This is why population studies are meaningless to me in my personal
decision making -- except in terms of my injury reduction
expectations. I do not expect a helmet to save my life. However,
helmets have proven benefit in reducing scalp injury, certain upper
facial injuries and skull fractures, which are all costly to treat and
worth avoiding -- particularly for me.


It might be worth asking yourself whether you did ride, or would have
ridden as you do, in 1973, before helmets were widely used. What
would you have done differently?


Know better than to bet my life on sanity, but in any case I do not
wear a helmet to facilitate added risk (to mitigate some of it,
maybe).
 




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