CycloCross: Dismount/Run vs Jump?

[Crossposted into rbr since it seemed appropriate]

On Jan 31, 1:28*pm, Chalo wrote:
Keiron wrote:

Tim McNamara wrote:

*Many 'cross
course designers (those who understand the difference between a 'cross
course and a MTB course) try to place barricades in such as way as to
minimize this advantage.

What are the principal differences in course design between
[cyclocross] and mtb??

Cyclocross has a long tradition of using the wrong tool for the job,
which for decades was uninterrupted because there were so few people
who thought it a good idea to ride any kind of bike in the freezing
mud during winter.

When MTBs arose, they turned out to be unbeatably better at riding
cross-country on unprepared surfaces than any sort of road bike with
knobbies. *Cyclocross being enamored of its long tradition of using
the wrong tool for the job, its organizers made two changes to ensure
the place of the road bike in this off-road sport.

First, they banned tires more than 35mm wide, because wide tires work
a _lot_ better on cruddy surfaces such as dirt, mud, and rocks.
Allowing appropriate tires for conditions would give an insurmountable
advantage to bikes that can fit appropriate tires (which traditional
'cross bikes cannot).

Second, CX courses began to focus on features like steep rough climbs
without reasonable approaches, short fences, sand pits, stairs, and
other such things that make it more practical to tote your bike as
luggage while you waddle through or over them rather than riding
through them. *This gave a small but significant advantage to bikes
that are better at being carried than being ridden in those
conditions.

I think that the evolution of cyclocross course
design that you are talking about may describe
what happened in the US rather than what happened
in Europe, and the driving force was not be trying
to weed out MTBs but trying to move towards
courses after the European style.

For an example of what I'm talking about, see this
archived discussion between Jeff Clark and Casey
Kerrigan on the history of Norcal CX course design:

http://web.archive.org/web/200503251.../surfhist..htm

The Euro-influence discussion is after the recollections
of Bob Leibold jungle-cross courses, skip down to
where Jeff says:
"The turning point for me was in '93 or '94 when I saw my
first world championship video. I don't remember the
location of the event, but it was an eye-opener. The start
was crit-style on pavement, and the group stayed together
for the first several laps. There were wide straightaways &
turns, with groups of riders negotiating 20' wide obstacles
at speed. ..."
"The SCCX transition to the "euro" style was a result of the
need to give the riders more room, and the pie-the-sky desire
to provide more adequate training for international competition. "

Now of course, maybe the Euros had changed their
courses to weed out pernicious MTBs. But I doubt it.
Riding MTBs in cross races has usually been okay
in non-UCI races in the US, but I don't think it was
ever a factor in Europe, where cross is a professional
sport rather than grass-roots and at-best-semi-pro
as it is here.

When we talk about the evolution to "Euro-style" courses,
it's not the introduction of dismounts. Dismounts were
part of cross long before MTBs. It's more the wider courses
and faster sections. This changes the race, and the
primary effect is not strictly an equipment issue of disfavoring
MTBs. In jungle-cross or MTB racing courses, opportunities
to pass slower riders are rare, and there's rarely a
benefit to drafting. In a wider, faster course, it's
easier to pass (this is one reason larger turnouts
forced wider courses), and drafting and tactics - will
riders work together or attack each other? - play a role.

The top-grade cyclocross racers are great bike handlers
and it is often surprising what they can ride on road bikes
with comparatively skinny tires. In a section where you
and I might see a benefit to MTBs, they don't need them.
In local races where people can choose their bike and
the course is often more jungley than Euro-style, the
fastest people almost always ride CX bikes. (The one
exception I knew in Norcal was "Mountain Larry"
Hibbard.)

Ben

P.S. One minor nitpick. Wider tires are often better
on loose surfaces and gravel, but not on mud. A lot
of expert racers will tell you that fat tires tend to slide
around on mud while moderate-width CX tires cut
through or compress it down enough to ride on.
In my inexpert experience, they have a point.

On Jan 31, 9:51*pm, "
wrote:

P.S. One minor nitpick. *Wider tires are often better
on loose surfaces and gravel, but not on mud. *A lot
of expert racers will tell you that fat tires tend to slide
around on mud while moderate-width CX tires cut
through or compress it down enough to ride on.
In my inexpert experience, they have a point.

This is true of deep sand too. We do cx races at Boulder Reservoir
that usually include a deep sandy beach descent. A friend of mine with
significant MTB racing experience switched from a cross bike to an MTB
mid-race due to a mechanical and mentioned afterward how badly the MTB
floundered in the deep sand.

More generally, lots of MTB folk enter the sport with a MTB or a cross
bike with flat bars and eventually move to a more appropriate drop bar
bike bike when they realize the disadvantage.

Bret

On Jan 31, 9:51*pm, "
wrote:
the
fastest people almost always ride CX bikes. *(The one
exception I knew in Norcal was "Mountain Larry"
Hibbard.)

I did a Central Coast with Larry and was very impressed. CO's answer
to Larry is Travis Brown.

http://tinyurl.com/ddthdf

Bret

Bret wrote:

Ben wrote:

Wider tires are often better
on loose surfaces and gravel, but not on mud. *A lot
of expert racers will tell you that fat tires tend to slide
around on mud while moderate-width CX tires cut
through or compress it down enough to ride on.
In my inexpert experience, they have a point.

This is true of deep sand *too. We do cx races at Boulder
Reservoir that usually include a deep sandy beach descent. A
friend of mine with significant MTB racing experience
switched from a cross bike to an MTB mid-race due to a
mechanical and mentioned afterward how badly the MTB
floundered in the deep sand.

My own experience with deep dry sand and gravel (in local playgrounds
and Gulf Coast beaches) is that my MTB with 3" tires consumes
prodigious amounts of my muscle power digging its way through, but my
street bikes with 32-40mm tires are more likely to stop dead in their
tracks.

I avoid riding my bikes in mud like I avoid bashing them with things
that would leave dents, or like I avoid hacking rocks with my kitchen
knives. My limited experience with mud in the street suggests that
fat tires, skinny tires, and my shoes will all slide on it when I
would rather they didn't.

Chalo

On Feb 1, 12:35*am, Bret wrote:
On Jan 31, 9:51*pm, "
wrote:

the
fastest people almost always ride CX bikes. *(The one
exception I knew in Norcal was "Mountain Larry"
Hibbard.)

I did a Central Coast with Larry and was very impressed. CO's answer
to Larry is Travis Brown.

http://tinyurl.com/ddthdf

Bret

Is that picture typical of cross races where you live? The whole idea
of a cross race interests me, except for the mud part. I hear guys
all the time talking about slipping, sliding, muddy circles in
describing cross tracks. I'd rather not feel the need to rebuild my
bike after ever race, and the only bike I have that I wouldn't rebuild
after such a race is my cheap-o rigid SS 29er. Problem is, I can't
even hop on that bike.

The course you in that picture looks like it would be real fast on my
26"MTB, or maybe even a tall geared BMX. Do they allow BMX bikes in
amature races? Are there any with few enough fast sections (20MPH+
maybe? been a while since I clocked myself on a BMX) that a BMX might
be competitive? I can't hop anything with drop bars more than a
couple inches, but I can ride my BMX over/up most things, even if it
involves casing a rear wheel.

On Feb 1, 8:23*am, " wrote:
On Feb 1, 12:35*am, Bret wrote:

On Jan 31, 9:51*pm, "
wrote:

the
fastest people almost always ride CX bikes. *(The one
exception I knew in Norcal was "Mountain Larry"
Hibbard.)

I did a Central Coast with Larry and was very impressed. CO's answer
to Larry is Travis Brown.

http://tinyurl.com/ddthdf

Bret

Is that picture typical of cross races where you live? *The whole idea
of a cross race interests me, except for the mud part. *I hear guys
all the time talking about slipping, sliding, muddy circles in
describing cross tracks. *I'd rather not feel the need to rebuild my
bike after ever race, and the only bike I have that I wouldn't rebuild
after such a race is my cheap-o rigid SS 29er. *Problem is, I can't
even hop on that bike.

The course you in that picture looks like it would be real fast on my
26"MTB, or maybe even a tall geared BMX. *Do they allow BMX bikes in
amature races? *Are there any with few enough fast sections (20MPH+
maybe? *been a while since I clocked myself on a BMX) that a BMX might
be competitive? *I can't hop anything with drop bars more than a
couple inches, but I can ride my BMX over/up most things, even if it
involves casing a rear wheel.

I just realized that was a set of pictures and scrolled through them
all. Definitely too fast for a BMX, but it looks like it'd be pretty
quick on a MTB, especially if that enabled you to jump more of the
barriers. Is there some sort of penalty (besides the chance of a
pinch flat) if you hit one of these? http://tinyurl.com/d24lxs

Do they get knocked over, or are they solid? Are you DQd? Penalized
a lap?

I always pictured cross races to look like the top picture here
http://tinyurl.com/bk3tkh

I just don't want to do that to a decent bike with gears and whatnot,
and wouldn't want to race on a beater SS.

On Feb 1, 6:30*am, " wrote:
On Feb 1, 8:23*am, " wrote:



On Feb 1, 12:35*am, Bret wrote:

On Jan 31, 9:51*pm, "
wrote:

the
fastest people almost always ride CX bikes. *(The one
exception I knew in Norcal was "Mountain Larry"
Hibbard.)

I did a Central Coast with Larry and was very impressed. CO's answer
to Larry is Travis Brown.

http://tinyurl.com/ddthdf

Bret

Is that picture typical of cross races where you live? *The whole idea
of a cross race interests me, except for the mud part. *I hear guys
all the time talking about slipping, sliding, muddy circles in
describing cross tracks. *I'd rather not feel the need to rebuild my
bike after ever race, and the only bike I have that I wouldn't rebuild
after such a race is my cheap-o rigid SS 29er. *Problem is, I can't
even hop on that bike.

The course you in that picture looks like it would be real fast on my
26"MTB, or maybe even a tall geared BMX. *Do they allow BMX bikes in
amature races? *Are there any with few enough fast sections (20MPH+
maybe? *been a while since I clocked myself on a BMX) that a BMX might
be competitive? *I can't hop anything with drop bars more than a
couple inches, but I can ride my BMX over/up most things, even if it
involves casing a rear wheel.

I just realized that was a set of pictures and scrolled through them
all. *Definitely too fast for a BMX, but it looks like it'd be pretty
quick on a MTB, especially if that enabled you to jump more of the
barriers. *Is there some sort of penalty (besides the chance of a
pinch flat) if you hit one of these? *http://tinyurl.com/d24lxs

Do they get knocked over, or are they solid? *Are you DQd? *Penalized
a lap?

No penalty unless you ride around them. Bunny hopping is an option.


I always pictured cross races to look like the top picture herehttp://tinyurl.com/bk3tkh

The CO frontrange has a dry climate and so many of our races are dry.
We do occasionally have a lot of snow and/or mud.


I just don't want to do that to a decent bike with gears and whatnot,
and wouldn't want to race on a beater SS.

You just take the bike to a car wash or use a hose at home. Having
more than one chain and a parts cleaner helps too.

There's room for a lot of variety in cx course design. The Rad Racing
GP in Lakewood, WA is an example of a great course design with an
outstanding feature, an 80m run-up. Check the video at the link below.
The run-up is at 1:30.

http://radgp.radracingnw.org/

I do use a MTB if the course warrants but that's a rare occurrence any
more. There's been a steady trend towards faster cross bike friendly
courses since I started doing cross twenty years ago.

Bret

In article
,
Chalo wrote:

Bret wrote:

Ben wrote:

Wider tires are often better
on loose surfaces and gravel, but not on mud. *A lot
of expert racers will tell you that fat tires tend to slide
around on mud while moderate-width CX tires cut
through or compress it down enough to ride on.
In my inexpert experience, they have a point.

This is true of deep sand *too. We do cx races at Boulder
Reservoir that usually include a deep sandy beach descent. A
friend of mine with significant MTB racing experience
switched from a cross bike to an MTB mid-race due to a
mechanical and mentioned afterward how badly the MTB
floundered in the deep sand.

My own experience with deep dry sand and gravel (in local playgrounds
and Gulf Coast beaches) is that my MTB with 3" tires consumes
prodigious amounts of my muscle power digging its way through, but my
street bikes with 32-40mm tires are more likely to stop dead in their
tracks.

Hard to say, but you might want to watch some Euro-pro CX videos.
There's a few sand-centric races every year that feature riders powering
through the sand with their 32mm tires.

I avoid riding my bikes in mud like I avoid bashing them with things
that would leave dents, or like I avoid hacking rocks with my kitchen
knives. My limited experience with mud in the street suggests that
fat tires, skinny tires, and my shoes will all slide on it when I
would rather they didn't.

Very open tread compounds are the key, but all mud is not created equal.
The mud here in the PNW tends to clear from reasonable tires fairly
easily. I have heard tales of clay-based muds that pack onto every
surface of the bike, never leave, and harden there.

That sort of thing might change my attitudes to riding in the mud.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

In article
,
" wrote:

On Feb 1, 8:23*am, " wrote:
On Feb 1, 12:35*am, Bret wrote:

On Jan 31, 9:51*pm, "
wrote:

the
fastest people almost always ride CX bikes. *(The one
exception I knew in Norcal was "Mountain Larry"
Hibbard.)

I did a Central Coast with Larry and was very impressed. CO's answer
to Larry is Travis Brown.

http://tinyurl.com/ddthdf

Bret

Is that picture typical of cross races where you live? *The whole idea
of a cross race interests me, except for the mud part. *I hear guys
all the time talking about slipping, sliding, muddy circles in
describing cross tracks. *I'd rather not feel the need to rebuild my
bike after ever race, and the only bike I have that I wouldn't rebuild
after such a race is my cheap-o rigid SS 29er. *Problem is, I can't
even hop on that bike.

The course you in that picture looks like it would be real fast on my
26"MTB, or maybe even a tall geared BMX. *Do they allow BMX bikes in
amature races? *Are there any with few enough fast sections (20MPH+
maybe? *been a while since I clocked myself on a BMX) that a BMX might
be competitive? *I can't hop anything with drop bars more than a
couple inches, but I can ride my BMX over/up most things, even if it
involves casing a rear wheel.

I just realized that was a set of pictures and scrolled through them
all. Definitely too fast for a BMX, but it looks like it'd be pretty
quick on a MTB, especially if that enabled you to jump more of the
barriers. Is there some sort of penalty (besides the chance of a
pinch flat) if you hit one of these? http://tinyurl.com/d24lxs

Do they get knocked over, or are they solid? Are you DQd? Penalized
a lap?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos.ph.../XilinxCX/21xl
nx_cross_102603_21

Those barriers are limited to a max height of 40cm by CX course design
standards. Those vertical supports you can see are pieces of rebar which
then sink a foot or more into the ground, whatever is necessary to keep
them upright despite occasional (or frequent) impacts from clumsy
riders. They're intended to be perfectly rigid. There would be no
penalty for knocking them over in the normal course of the race.

You can ride them if you are able, but organizers often try to make that
harder by putting the barriers closer together or putting three in a
row. These ones are about the widest-spaced set of doubles I've seen.

These barriers are a mainstay of amateur CX racing because they're easy
to set up and easy to move. In the pro level, barriers are much rarer,
partly because they're not that hard for pros to ride. Stairs and steep,
loose-traction run-ups are most common Euro-pro obstacles that are
intended to force dismounts.

I always pictured cross races to look like the top picture here
http://tinyurl.com/bk3tkh

I just don't want to do that to a decent bike with gears and whatnot,
and wouldn't want to race on a beater SS.

That picture is from a road race (Paris-Roubaix). Conditions in CX races
can be much worse.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

" writes:

I just realized that was a set of pictures and scrolled through them
all. Definitely too fast for a BMX, but it looks like it'd be
pretty quick on a MTB, especially if that enabled you to jump more
of the barriers. Is there some sort of penalty (besides the chance
of a pinch flat) if you hit one of these? http://tinyurl.com/d24lxs

Do they get knocked over, or are they solid? Are you DQd?
Penalized a lap?

You usually crash. Hard. The barricades are usually solidly
anchored.

A point that should be made is that, as in all sports, there is an
aesthetic and an etiquette. In cyclo-cross it is the use of a
road-ish bike to do this stuff.