Frank -

On 7/29/2019 9:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 8:55:26 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/28/2019 9:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 10:36:56 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:41:35 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:


So my question to you is - How is it possible for a tensiometer to work
on a small, thin double butted spoke and give the same reading on a much
larger and stiffer aero spoke?

You asked for tension. This is a measurement that is not related to
thickness. E.G. Nylong and steel strings ona guitar can provide the same
note. Perhaps you are thinking of the tension eqivaslent to the tone
(depth of sound).

We're in agreement about that - but the problem is that plucking a spoke on the clincher offers a much higher note than on the tubeless. The "correct" spoke lengths that the factory sent me are 10 mm longer than the one's I'm measuring on the wheel itself.

Andrew do you sell aero spokes and nipples?


Maybe, it depends.
Mavic type? Campagnolo type? S-head Hoshi? Slot-the-hubshell
type DT? Straight-pull? Not so aero ACI/ AeroAlpina?
Stainless? Aluminum? Carbon?

Some yes some no and not all lengths.


I didn't know they made aluminum spokes. Anyway they are J-bend spokes, as aero as you can get, as a test to see if I'm on the right track, 12 spokes 244 mm, another 12 spokes 248 mm and 20 spokes 246 mm. If it doesn't improve this wheelset I will accept defeat and go back to the clinchers which work almost perfectly. If It is better to double that order since I have two sets of wheels then that would also be good.


"J" like a normal headed spoke? That means it's either
not-very-aero like an AeroAlpina or the hub shell has to be
slotted like a DT.

For Aero Alpina write to Mr Grinter at Well Spoken Wheels in
Illinois.

We have those lengths in Hoshi Aero with S-head:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/HOSHIBLD.JPG

1.0x2.35mm stainless

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 9:15:07 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/29/2019 9:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 8:55:26 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/28/2019 9:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 10:36:56 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:41:35 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:


So my question to you is - How is it possible for a tensiometer to work
on a small, thin double butted spoke and give the same reading on a much
larger and stiffer aero spoke?

You asked for tension. This is a measurement that is not related to
thickness. E.G. Nylong and steel strings ona guitar can provide the same
note. Perhaps you are thinking of the tension eqivaslent to the tone
(depth of sound).

We're in agreement about that - but the problem is that plucking a spoke on the clincher offers a much higher note than on the tubeless. The "correct" spoke lengths that the factory sent me are 10 mm longer than the one's I'm measuring on the wheel itself.

Andrew do you sell aero spokes and nipples?


Maybe, it depends.
Mavic type? Campagnolo type? S-head Hoshi? Slot-the-hubshell
type DT? Straight-pull? Not so aero ACI/ AeroAlpina?
Stainless? Aluminum? Carbon?

Some yes some no and not all lengths.


I didn't know they made aluminum spokes. Anyway they are J-bend spokes, as aero as you can get, as a test to see if I'm on the right track, 12 spokes 244 mm, another 12 spokes 248 mm and 20 spokes 246 mm. If it doesn't improve this wheelset I will accept defeat and go back to the clinchers which work almost perfectly. If It is better to double that order since I have two sets of wheels then that would also be good.


"J" like a normal headed spoke? That means it's either
not-very-aero like an AeroAlpina or the hub shell has to be
slotted like a DT.

For Aero Alpina write to Mr Grinter at Well Spoken Wheels in
Illinois.

We have those lengths in Hoshi Aero with S-head:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/HOSHIBLD.JPG

1.0x2.35mm stainless

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Yes, they are normally headed spokes with slotted hub.

On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 9:57:19 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, July 29, 2019 at 9:15:07 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/29/2019 9:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 8:55:26 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/28/2019 9:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 10:36:56 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:41:35 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:


So my question to you is - How is it possible for a tensiometer to work
on a small, thin double butted spoke and give the same reading on a much
larger and stiffer aero spoke?

You asked for tension. This is a measurement that is not related to
thickness. E.G. Nylong and steel strings ona guitar can provide the same
note. Perhaps you are thinking of the tension eqivaslent to the tone
(depth of sound).

We're in agreement about that - but the problem is that plucking a spoke on the clincher offers a much higher note than on the tubeless. The "correct" spoke lengths that the factory sent me are 10 mm longer than the one's I'm measuring on the wheel itself.

Andrew do you sell aero spokes and nipples?


Maybe, it depends.
Mavic type? Campagnolo type? S-head Hoshi? Slot-the-hubshell
type DT? Straight-pull? Not so aero ACI/ AeroAlpina?
Stainless? Aluminum? Carbon?

Some yes some no and not all lengths.


I didn't know they made aluminum spokes. Anyway they are J-bend spokes, as aero as you can get, as a test to see if I'm on the right track, 12 spokes 244 mm, another 12 spokes 248 mm and 20 spokes 246 mm. If it doesn't improve this wheelset I will accept defeat and go back to the clinchers which work almost perfectly. If It is better to double that order since I have two sets of wheels then that would also be good.


"J" like a normal headed spoke? That means it's either
not-very-aero like an AeroAlpina or the hub shell has to be
slotted like a DT.

For Aero Alpina write to Mr Grinter at Well Spoken Wheels in
Illinois.

We have those lengths in Hoshi Aero with S-head:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/HOSHIBLD.JPG

1.0x2.35mm stainless

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Yes, they are normally headed spokes with slotted hub.

DT Aerolite? https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/...s/dt-aerolite/ They're easy enough to come by. I used one in a HED wheel as a replacement. They're ridiculously expensive, though. https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...s.php?id=16567 Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:19:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.

I've noticed that, and wondered about the economics. Is it due to the takeover
of machine built wheels, reducing the demand for "craft" wheel building and so
reducing the economies of scale? And does the much wider variety of spoke
designs also contribute?

Just curious. As with groceries, I can afford them. I just wish my next
wheel building project would somehow, by coincidence, require some of the boxes
of spokes I already own.

- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:22:29 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:19:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.

I've noticed that, and wondered about the economics. Is it due to the takeover
of machine built wheels, reducing the demand for "craft" wheel building and so
reducing the economies of scale? And does the much wider variety of spoke
designs also contribute?

Just curious. As with groceries, I can afford them. I just wish my next
wheel building project would somehow, by coincidence, require some of the boxes
of spokes I already own.

Good luck on reusing old spokes or NOS spokes. Most modern rims have smaller ERDs due to aero rim shaping. I still have a bunch of 310mm DT spokes I bought for some 4X Weinmann Concave wheels I built 40 years ago. I'll never use those, except for shish kebab skewers. I suppose I could spend a $ zillion on a Phil spoke machine. If you're lucky, you can find one used for $3K.

If you find a cheap source for spokes, let me know. All of my sources have dried up.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 7/30/2019 11:53 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:22:29 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:19:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.

I've noticed that, and wondered about the economics. Is it due to the takeover
of machine built wheels, reducing the demand for "craft" wheel building and so
reducing the economies of scale? And does the much wider variety of spoke
designs also contribute?

Just curious. As with groceries, I can afford them. I just wish my next
wheel building project would somehow, by coincidence, require some of the boxes
of spokes I already own.

Good luck on reusing old spokes or NOS spokes. Most modern rims have smaller ERDs due to aero rim shaping. I still have a bunch of 310mm DT spokes I bought for some 4X Weinmann Concave wheels I built 40 years ago. I'll never use those, except for shish kebab skewers. I suppose I could spend a $ zillion on a Phil spoke machine. If you're lucky, you can find one used for $3K.

If you find a cheap source for spokes, let me know. All of my sources have dried up.

-- Jay Beattie.




Yes, there's that, but vintage high flange lengths can be
suddenly useful in deep rims.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 12:53:35 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:22:29 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:19:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.

I've noticed that, and wondered about the economics. Is it due to the takeover
of machine built wheels, reducing the demand for "craft" wheel building and so
reducing the economies of scale? And does the much wider variety of spoke
designs also contribute?

Just curious. As with groceries, I can afford them. I just wish my next
wheel building project would somehow, by coincidence, require some of the boxes
of spokes I already own.

Good luck on reusing old spokes or NOS spokes. Most modern rims have smaller ERDs due to aero rim shaping.

Are you imagining I'd use _modern_ rims? Hah!

I suppose I could spend a $ zillion on a Phil spoke machine. If you're lucky, you can find one used for $3K.

I tried using a cheaper alternative spoke threader a year or two ago. It was a
dismal failure. Very frustrating.

- Frank Krygowski

On 7/30/2019 2:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 12:53:35 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:22:29 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:19:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.

I've noticed that, and wondered about the economics. Is it due to the takeover
of machine built wheels, reducing the demand for "craft" wheel building and so
reducing the economies of scale? And does the much wider variety of spoke
designs also contribute?

Just curious. As with groceries, I can afford them. I just wish my next
wheel building project would somehow, by coincidence, require some of the boxes
of spokes I already own.

Good luck on reusing old spokes or NOS spokes. Most modern rims have smaller ERDs due to aero rim shaping.

Are you imagining I'd use _modern_ rims? Hah!

I suppose I could spend a $ zillion on a Phil spoke machine. If you're lucky, you can find one used for $3K.

I tried using a cheaper alternative spoke threader a year or two ago. It was a
dismal failure. Very frustrating.

- Frank Krygowski


+1

Phil is the only relatively available tool which actually
works. I have many miles on a very low serial number model
which has been reliable and excellent all these long years.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:22:29 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:19:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.

I've noticed that, and wondered about the economics. Is it due to the takeover
of machine built wheels, reducing the demand for "craft" wheel building and so
reducing the economies of scale? And does the much wider variety of spoke
designs also contribute?

Just curious. As with groceries, I can afford them. I just wish my next
wheel building project would somehow, by coincidence, require some of the boxes
of spokes I already own.

Good luck on reusing old spokes or NOS spokes. Most modern rims have smaller ERDs due to aero rim shaping. I still have a bunch of 310mm DT spokes I bought for some 4X Weinmann Concave wheels I built 40 years ago. I'll never use those, except for shish kebab skewers. I suppose I could spend a $ zillion on a Phil spoke machine. If you're lucky, you can find one used for $3K.

If you find a cheap source for spokes, let me know. All of my sources have dried up.

-- Jay Beattie.

I got a 50-lb (or so it feels) box of spokes for $5 when the los gatos bike shop closed doors. DT and wheelsmith. In bundles of 50 or so, in 1 or 2 mm increments from 260-something to 300-something. What length do you need? many are straight tho not double-butted.

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 5:34:17 PM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 9:22:29 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:19:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Spokes in general have gotten ridiculously expensive.

I've noticed that, and wondered about the economics. Is it due to the takeover
of machine built wheels, reducing the demand for "craft" wheel building and so
reducing the economies of scale? And does the much wider variety of spoke
designs also contribute?

Just curious. As with groceries, I can afford them. I just wish my next
wheel building project would somehow, by coincidence, require some of the boxes
of spokes I already own.

Good luck on reusing old spokes or NOS spokes. Most modern rims have smaller ERDs due to aero rim shaping. I still have a bunch of 310mm DT spokes I bought for some 4X Weinmann Concave wheels I built 40 years ago. I'll never use those, except for shish kebab skewers. I suppose I could spend a $ zillion on a Phil spoke machine. If you're lucky, you can find one used for $3K.

If you find a cheap source for spokes, let me know. All of my sources have dried up.

-- Jay Beattie.

I got a 50-lb (or so it feels) box of spokes for $5 when the los gatos bike shop closed doors. DT and wheelsmith. In bundles of 50 or so, in 1 or 2 mm increments from 260-something to 300-something. What length do you need? many are straight tho not double-butted.

Dude, you're sitting on a gold mine. You could retire on your spoke collection.

-- Jay Beattie.