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  #61  
Old May 14th 11, 07:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°[_2_]
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Posts: 1,270
Default OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating

On 5/10/2011 11:16 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On May 10, 6:43 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 5/10/2011 8:33 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On May 10, 8:57 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:


[1] The less said about the horrors of electronic amplification with its
inherent distortion and often excessive volume [2], the better.


No, I think it's important to talk about the horrors of
amplification. If it ain't wooden, it ain't real music!


- Frank Krygowski


Some 400 year old brass. And a Leonardo da Vinci lookalike
percussionist:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjpFi9bn1do.


Alas, that trumpet is not 400 years old. True baroque trumpets did
not use vents and players had to approximate certain intervals -- and
the harmonics were way off, and inconsistent between registers. You
would not like Orfeo or Brandenburg 2 on a true baroque trumpet. It
would hurt your ears. And forget about a chromatic scale.


Been there, heard that, enjoyed it.

Electric can be awesome. Listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s-Oa...eature=related
Or if you want electric baroque -- then get my favorite transexual
playing Scarlatti. http://wendycarlos.com/cdcovers/WTSNew.jpg
http://wendycarlos.com/


Thing is, studio electric guitar (which is *not* recorded acoustically)
sounds much better than live electric guitar, since it lacks the nasty
distortion products that rapidly fatigue the discerning ear.

Listen to some Lou Harrison playing gamelan or some Koto music.
There's a whole wide world of non-whitey music out there. There is
some South African choral music that is awesome. Bach is great, but
saying it is the best music is like arguing ice cream flavors.


Nonsense.

"Everyone loves J.S. Bach except cretins and those with undeveloped or
improperly developed minds." - Tom Sherman

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
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  #62  
Old May 14th 11, 08:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°[_2_]
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Posts: 1,270
Default OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating

On 5/11/2011 3:19 AM, Çhâlõ Çólîñã wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:

Frank Krygowski wrote:

Tœm Shermæn wrote:

[1] The less said about the horrors of electronic amplification with its
inherent distortion and often excessive volume [2], the better.

No, I think it's important to talk about the horrors of
amplification. If it ain't wooden, it ain't real music!


Electric can be awesome. Listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s-Oa...eature=related
Or if you want electric baroque -- then get my favorite transexual
playing Scarlatti.http://wendycarlos.com/cdcovers/WTSN...ndycarlos.com/


Any baroque pipe organist would have traded it all in for a Hammond
B-3 or Yamaha DX7 hooked up to a huge wall of Marshall stacks. I
mean, what they were using was the contemporary equivalent (minus
versatility, mobility, and output).


Except that baroque organs have beautiful timbrel qualities, while
electric organs are nasty. And the buildings the come in are a bonus.

Anyone (Tom) who can stand to listen to archaic music on Youtube is
chatting nonsense if they object to electrically powered music with
decent quality reproduction.


I use Utoob mostly as way to find things that I can (hopefully) get in a
higher quality medium.

I mean, unless you spend your days in
the same room with dorks playing Purcell on flageolets, you're still
hearing it by way of electronic amplification.


But without the high levels of nasty higher order and non-harmonic
distortion.

I personally prefer human powered sound-- but then my band's acoustic
output can be measured in horsepower, and can leave you with rock 'n
roll style euphoria and ringing in the ears. The sound quality is
inseparable from the simultaneous exposure to pheremones, discharging
spit valves, and possibly confetti.


Tinnitus is *not* good, as it indicates permanent damage is taking place.

According to my last hearing test, I have the sensitivity of a young
child, and can still hear to 20 kHz [1], which explains why I find live
amplified music to be literally painful without ear plugs (which
attenuate high frequencies more than low frequencies).

[1] Which is still pitiful compared to the hearing of my roommates [2].
[2] http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5205/5202664833_206fa642c5_b.jpg.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #63  
Old May 14th 11, 08:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°[_2_]
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Posts: 1,270
Default OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating

On 5/11/2011 7:36 PM, Dan O wrote:
On May 10, 5:57 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 5/9/2011 5:12 PM, Çhâlõ Çólîñã wrote:
[...]


What I am saying is that Bach had Palestrina to draw upon, but not the
other way around. And Chopin had Bach to draw upon, but not the other
way around. Duke Ellington had all of those guys and much more to
draw upon (and it shows). Today's able composer has Duke Ellington,
and Chopin, and Bach, and Palestrina, all at his fingertips, along
with many others those guys were or weren't aware of, such that he can
build beyond what they have done. Not every example of music, or
architecture, or bicycles, constitutes progress. But the current is a
forward-moving one. Good music today can be much better than in
Bach's day, and now it doesn't take a unique talent like Bach's to do
better than he did. Just like it doesn't take a modern-day James
Starley to design and build a much better bike than Starley's.


Music rarely benefits from "technical progress" with a few exceptions
(without notation, complex pieces for multiple forces would likely not
exist). The genius of the composer is what matters, and J.S. Bach has
never been surpassed.

As a side note, architecture has influenced music, due to the changing
performing spaces. Period instruments have better timbrel qualities
than modern acoustic [1] instruments, but lack the projection for use in
large performance spaces.

"Everyone loves J.S. Bach except cretins and those with undeveloped or
improperly developed minds." - Tom Sherman

[1] The less said about the horrors of electronic amplification with its
inherent distortion and often excessive volume [2], the better.
[2] Blasting (c)rap at building shaking volume in an apartment complex
should be grounds for justifiable homicide.

Some decades ago The Rolling Stones "Hot Rocks" was re-issued on LP.
As was the latest trend at the time, the tracks were "digitally re-
mastered" for better sound. Apparently trying to "clean up"
distortion, they had produced the most egregious neutering
imaginable... practcally *un*imaginable, in fact.

Part and parcel of the original work had been saturation and overload
- clean through and all the way to the signal capacity of the vinyl
groove - f*&^ing brilliant!

The expensive new "digitally remastered" pressings were crap - the
essential character had been run over and left for dead.

Sorry, but I never understood what all the fuss is about. Of course,
Mick Jagger's awful selfish and childish behavior cannot but prejudice.

Let me offer an observation that ties this thread into some of the
discussion about the craziness of market economics and such:

I got the brand-new sealed 4-CD Boxed Set "The Byrds" (with restored
Gram Parsons lead vocals (!) for like sisteen dollars. I have like
three or four copies of Elton Juhn's "Rock of the Westies" LP (not
their best by a longshot, but... ) for like ninety-nine cents each.

I find Mr. Dwight to be superficial and annoying, not to mention putting
profit over morals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HSClZbhB5g&feature=player_embedded#at=42 .

What is up with that? What value art?

http://austincitylimits.org/


Billions of dollars have been made producing schlock that has a shelf
life of a couple of months. Meanwhile treasures such as this do not
even sell enough to pay for production costs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s646zCntaYg.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #64  
Old May 14th 11, 01:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Posts: 4,572
Default OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating

On 5/11/2011 1:16 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:

With schools cutting back on music programs, I wonder where the next
brass players are going to come from. The sound of spit valves may
soon be a thing of the past. We're going to have Casio keyboards with
a synthetic spit valve sound -- and coughing. That's what I love
about live orchestral performances -- they always sound like they are
being given in a TB ward.-- Jay Beattie.


My 2 kids are both talented musicians, having studied woodwind for many
years (lots of private lessons). My son played a bunch through HS, but
didn't make the cut in college -- the ensemble he wanted to join didn't
take any freshmen. He got discouraged and never played in college at
all. It's a shame, there seems to be already a surplus of musicians
relative to venues. I hope my daughter doesn't follow suit, she spent
last summer waitressing to buy a $2K clarinet. Current household tally:
3 clarinets, 2 saxophones, 2 acoustic & 2 electric guitars, banjo,
flute, trumpet, 2 sets of harmonicas, electronic keyboard and
miscellaneous percussion.

  #65  
Old May 14th 11, 02:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Posts: 4,572
Default OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating

On 5/14/2011 2:59 AM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:

Thing is, studio electric guitar (which is *not* recorded acoustically)
sounds much better than live electric guitar, since it lacks the nasty
distortion products that rapidly fatigue the discerning ear.


Artful use of distortion is one of the subtleties of amplified music.

Listen to some Lou Harrison playing gamelan or some Koto music.
There's a whole wide world of non-whitey music out there. There is
some South African choral music that is awesome. Bach is great, but
saying it is the best music is like arguing ice cream flavors.


Nonsense.


We are living in a golden age for music enjoyment. The breadth of music
I have (literally) at my fingertips is amazing. I have sound systems in
almost every room in the house, and of course cheap portable players
that store days worth of recordings. I have huge collections of vinyl
and CD's now gathering dust because all I/we do is stream or rip.
There's an astounding amount of music out there -- from all times and
places.


"Everyone loves J.S. Bach except cretins and those with undeveloped or
improperly developed minds." - Tom Sherman


I always thought Bach was a phase that people went through (like music
history did). His music is nice enough, but baroque gets pretty tedious,
it's a pretty rigid format -- fine in small doses, but not very
sophisticated and dull for a steady diet. I find the tacked on
embellishments grating after a (relatively short) while. A little organ
goes a long way, too -- ditto for harpsichord.

The pinnacle of classical music was the romantic period, and switching
to that from baroque feels like being let out of a cage. I'm not so big
on post-romantic, but I always figured I just lacked the sophistication
for it. As far as taste goes, while I appreciate the mastery of the
Germans, they're just so -- German! Italian is more my style, even if it
may lack the depth. I admire Beethoven, but usually enjoy Rossini more
-- the world's first true rock star! Despite some beautiful and moving
music, I'll take secular over liturgical, an opera over a mass.


  #66  
Old May 14th 11, 04:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jay Beattie
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Posts: 4,322
Default OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating

On May 14, 5:34*am, Peter Cole wrote:
On 5/11/2011 1:16 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:

With schools cutting back on music programs, I wonder where the next
brass players are going to come from. The sound of spit valves may
soon be a thing of the past. We're going to have Casio keyboards with
a synthetic spit valve sound -- and coughing. *That's what I love
about live orchestral performances -- they always sound like they are
being given in a TB ward.-- Jay Beattie.


My 2 kids are both talented musicians, having studied woodwind for many
years (lots of private lessons). My son played a bunch through HS, but
didn't make the cut in college -- the ensemble he wanted to join didn't
take any freshmen. He got discouraged and never played in college at
all. It's a shame, there seems to be already a surplus of musicians
relative to venues. I hope my daughter doesn't follow suit, she spent
last summer waitressing to buy a $2K clarinet. Current household tally:
3 clarinets, 2 saxophones, 2 acoustic & 2 electric guitars, banjo,
flute, trumpet, 2 sets of harmonicas, electronic keyboard and
miscellaneous percussion.


You can put on a music camp with all that stuff!

I would guess that in your area, there are lots of opportunitites to
play -- "B" bands at college, JC bands/orchestras, community bands,
etc. After college, I played in JC orchestras and jazz bands -- no
regular bands for some reason, and in law schoool, I played in the
undergraduate jazz band for fun. I was just wandering around the music
department to see what it looked like, and started chatting with the
band professor, and he invited me to try out. My current slacker band
is a hoot, and only keeps me busy for part of the year. http://www.omtaamb.org/
Around here, if you want to play, there are lots of opportunities --
out front of the Macy's downtown for example.http://www.flickr.com/
photos/surrealperception/184541095/ That guy is really pretty damned
good -- a Mariachi player picking up a few bucks on week days.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20384524@N08/2306995108/ -- not so good,
but a nice guy who has fallen on hard times.

BTW, my sister was a really good clarinetist. She got her MBA at
Columbia and supported herself playing in Broadway and off Broadway
pit orchestras. During undergraduate, she and her clarinet trio would
play on street corners in SF to buy sheet music. She owned and
rehabbed a bunch of Buffets. The old ones just go up in price.-- Jay
Beattie.
  #67  
Old May 14th 11, 04:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jay Beattie
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Posts: 4,322
Default OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating

On May 14, 12:13*am, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 5/11/2011 3:19 AM, Çhâlõ Çólîñã wrote:





Jay Beattie wrote:


Frank Krygowski wrote:


Tœm Shermæn wrote:


[1] The less said about the horrors of electronic amplification with its
inherent distortion and often excessive volume [2], the better.


No, I think it's important to talk about the horrors of
amplification. *If it ain't wooden, it ain't real music!


Electric can be awesome. *Listen to *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s-Oa...eature=related
Or if you want electric baroque -- then get my favorite transexual
playing Scarlatti.http://wendycarlos.com/cdcovers/WTSN...ndycarlos.com/


Any baroque pipe organist would have traded it all in for a Hammond
B-3 or Yamaha DX7 hooked up to a huge wall of Marshall stacks. *I
mean, what they were using was the contemporary equivalent (minus
versatility, mobility, and output).


Except that baroque organs have beautiful timbrel qualities, while
electric organs are nasty. *And the buildings the come in are a bonus.



Anyone (Tom) who can stand to listen to archaic music on Youtube is
chatting nonsense if they object to electrically powered music with
decent quality reproduction.


I use Utoob mostly as way to find things that I can (hopefully) get in a
higher quality medium.

I mean, unless you spend your days in
the same room with dorks playing Purcell on flageolets, you're still
hearing it by way of electronic amplification.


But without the high levels of nasty higher order and non-harmonic
distortion.



I personally prefer human powered sound-- but then my band's acoustic
output can be measured in horsepower, and can leave you with rock 'n
roll style euphoria and ringing in the ears. *The sound quality is
inseparable from the simultaneous exposure to pheremones, discharging
spit valves, and possibly confetti.


Tinnitus is *not* good, as it indicates permanent damage is taking place.

According to my last hearing test, I have the sensitivity of a young
child, and can still hear to 20 kHz [1], which explains why I find live
amplified music to be literally painful without ear plugs (which
attenuate high frequencies more than low frequencies).


I had a girl friend in college who could hear those doppler alarms in
department stores when they were left on. I always thought that
hearing above or around 20K was a curse and not a blessing. My
hearing is so rolled off that I'm lucky to hear anything near 15K, but
there is not much music up there anyway. Most crappy tube guitar amps
aren't putting out anything in the 20K range. I think they
purposefully roll them off at about 5K. I would be super surprised if
any of the speakers I see at clubs could even reproduce 15K, being
mostly woofers with cheesey horns with AGC and designed to put out
130dBs for ten hours without blowing up. You are probably just
reacting to the SPLs. You are going to get way more real information
in the 20K range sitting front row at a baroque orchestra concert --
or from a screaching French baroque pipe organ. -- Jay Beattie.
  #68  
Old May 14th 11, 05:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°[_2_]
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Posts: 1,270
Default OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating

On 5/14/2011 10:53 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On May 14, 12:13 am, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 5/11/2011 3:19 AM, Çhâlõ Çólîñã wrote:





Jay Beattie wrote:


Frank Krygowski wrote:


Tœm Shermæn wrote:


[1] The less said about the horrors of electronic amplification with its
inherent distortion and often excessive volume [2], the better.


No, I think it's important to talk about the horrors of
amplification. If it ain't wooden, it ain't real music!


Electric can be awesome. Listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s-Oa...eature=related
Or if you want electric baroque -- then get my favorite transexual
playing Scarlatti.http://wendycarlos.com/cdcovers/WTSN...ndycarlos.com/


Any baroque pipe organist would have traded it all in for a Hammond
B-3 or Yamaha DX7 hooked up to a huge wall of Marshall stacks. I
mean, what they were using was the contemporary equivalent (minus
versatility, mobility, and output).


Except that baroque organs have beautiful timbrel qualities, while
electric organs are nasty. And the buildings the come in are a bonus.



Anyone (Tom) who can stand to listen to archaic music on Youtube is
chatting nonsense if they object to electrically powered music with
decent quality reproduction.


I use Utoob mostly as way to find things that I can (hopefully) get in a
higher quality medium.

I mean, unless you spend your days in
the same room with dorks playing Purcell on flageolets, you're still
hearing it by way of electronic amplification.


But without the high levels of nasty higher order and non-harmonic
distortion.



I personally prefer human powered sound-- but then my band's acoustic
output can be measured in horsepower, and can leave you with rock 'n
roll style euphoria and ringing in the ears. The sound quality is
inseparable from the simultaneous exposure to pheremones, discharging
spit valves, and possibly confetti.


Tinnitus is *not* good, as it indicates permanent damage is taking place.

According to my last hearing test, I have the sensitivity of a young
child, and can still hear to 20 kHz [1], which explains why I find live
amplified music to be literally painful without ear plugs (which
attenuate high frequencies more than low frequencies).


I had a girl friend in college who could hear those doppler alarms in
department stores when they were left on. I always thought that
hearing above or around 20K was a curse and not a blessing. My
hearing is so rolled off that I'm lucky to hear anything near 15K, but
there is not much music up there anyway.


No music, but higher order harmonics, which produce the extremely
offensive "hash" similar to white noise.

Most crappy tube guitar amps
aren't putting out anything in the 20K range. I think they
purposefully roll them off at about 5K. I would be super surprised if
any of the speakers I see at clubs could even reproduce 15K, being
mostly woofers with cheesey horns with AGC and designed to put out
130dBs for ten hours without blowing up. You are probably just
reacting to the SPLs.


Even an "idling" guitar amp sets me on edge, even though the SPL is in
the 20 dBA range. When turned off, I feel a sense of relief.

You are going to get way more real information
in the 20K range sitting front row at a baroque orchestra concert --
or from a screaching French baroque pipe organ. -- Jay Beattie.


butbutbut, these lack the higher order and non-harmonic distortions.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #69  
Old May 14th 11, 06:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating

On May 14, 8:34*am, Peter Cole wrote:


My 2 kids are both talented musicians, having studied woodwind for many
years (lots of private lessons). My son played a bunch through HS, but
didn't make the cut in college -- the ensemble he wanted to join didn't
take any freshmen. He got discouraged and never played in college at
all. It's a shame, there seems to be already a surplus of musicians
relative to venues. I hope my daughter doesn't follow suit...


I started on clarinet, and later bass clarinet. I sometimes wish I
kept my lip in shape, but it's long gone, ever since high school. My
fingers still know what to do, though.

I think it's a shame that the music training most (musical) kids get
in school is directed toward large bands, playing precisely what's on
the page, and often slogging around in formation in a muddy athletic
field. In our metro area, I'll bet there are well over 100,000 people
who played an instrument in a school band. I bet fewer than 2000 of
them ever pick one up these days.

For a long, long time people socialized via music, and there are a few
of us that still do. It can be as few as two people, or as many as a
couple hundred sitting around jamming in informal groups under shade
trees at a festival. We have fairly regular house sessions, with five
to twenty people playing together for fun. It's too bad this isn't
encouraged.

Current household tally:
3 clarinets, 2 saxophones, 2 acoustic & 2 electric guitars, banjo,
flute, trumpet, 2 sets of harmonicas, electronic keyboard and
miscellaneous percussion.


Let's see: We've got one clarinet, one trumpet, one electronic
keyboard, one or two guitars (not sure if one's at my daughter's
house), one mountain dulcimer, two mandolins, two fiddles, one flute,
one button accordion, a couple ocarinas, about five harmonicas, about
six recorders, and at least a dozen tin whistles in various sizes and
keys.

IOW, I can equip a crew for an excellent Commando Trad effort like
this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhk-4gT738o

- Frank Krygowski
  #70  
Old July 31st 19, 08:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
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Posts: 1,424
Default OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating


...snip... As far as taste goes, while I appreciate the mastery of the
Germans, they're just so -- German! Italian is more my style, even if it
may lack the depth. I admire Beethoven, but usually enjoy Rossini more
-- the world's first true rock star! Despite some beautiful and moving
music, I'll take secular over liturgical, an opera over a mass.


:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
That's how I feel about Mozart. The whole world is like... Mozart, Mozart, Mozart. But I think that An Italian in Algiers is a better Marriage of Figaro, and what the latter should have been.
I never get tired of this video, no matter how many times I watch it, and am insanely jealous of the guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAcSTWitbmQ

 




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