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#61
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OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating
On 5/10/2011 11:16 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On May 10, 6:43 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI $southslope.net" wrote: On 5/10/2011 8:33 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On May 10, 8:57 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI $southslope.net" wrote: [1] The less said about the horrors of electronic amplification with its inherent distortion and often excessive volume [2], the better. No, I think it's important to talk about the horrors of amplification. If it ain't wooden, it ain't real music! - Frank Krygowski Some 400 year old brass. And a Leonardo da Vinci lookalike percussionist:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjpFi9bn1do. Alas, that trumpet is not 400 years old. True baroque trumpets did not use vents and players had to approximate certain intervals -- and the harmonics were way off, and inconsistent between registers. You would not like Orfeo or Brandenburg 2 on a true baroque trumpet. It would hurt your ears. And forget about a chromatic scale. Been there, heard that, enjoyed it. Electric can be awesome. Listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s-Oa...eature=related Or if you want electric baroque -- then get my favorite transexual playing Scarlatti. http://wendycarlos.com/cdcovers/WTSNew.jpg http://wendycarlos.com/ Thing is, studio electric guitar (which is *not* recorded acoustically) sounds much better than live electric guitar, since it lacks the nasty distortion products that rapidly fatigue the discerning ear. Listen to some Lou Harrison playing gamelan or some Koto music. There's a whole wide world of non-whitey music out there. There is some South African choral music that is awesome. Bach is great, but saying it is the best music is like arguing ice cream flavors. Nonsense. "Everyone loves J.S. Bach except cretins and those with undeveloped or improperly developed minds." - Tom Sherman -- Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist. |
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#62
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OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating
On 5/11/2011 3:19 AM, Çhâlõ Çólîñã wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote: Frank Krygowski wrote: Tœm Shermæn wrote: [1] The less said about the horrors of electronic amplification with its inherent distortion and often excessive volume [2], the better. No, I think it's important to talk about the horrors of amplification. If it ain't wooden, it ain't real music! Electric can be awesome. Listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s-Oa...eature=related Or if you want electric baroque -- then get my favorite transexual playing Scarlatti.http://wendycarlos.com/cdcovers/WTSN...ndycarlos.com/ Any baroque pipe organist would have traded it all in for a Hammond B-3 or Yamaha DX7 hooked up to a huge wall of Marshall stacks. I mean, what they were using was the contemporary equivalent (minus versatility, mobility, and output). Except that baroque organs have beautiful timbrel qualities, while electric organs are nasty. And the buildings the come in are a bonus. Anyone (Tom) who can stand to listen to archaic music on Youtube is chatting nonsense if they object to electrically powered music with decent quality reproduction. I use Utoob mostly as way to find things that I can (hopefully) get in a higher quality medium. I mean, unless you spend your days in the same room with dorks playing Purcell on flageolets, you're still hearing it by way of electronic amplification. But without the high levels of nasty higher order and non-harmonic distortion. I personally prefer human powered sound-- but then my band's acoustic output can be measured in horsepower, and can leave you with rock 'n roll style euphoria and ringing in the ears. The sound quality is inseparable from the simultaneous exposure to pheremones, discharging spit valves, and possibly confetti. Tinnitus is *not* good, as it indicates permanent damage is taking place. According to my last hearing test, I have the sensitivity of a young child, and can still hear to 20 kHz [1], which explains why I find live amplified music to be literally painful without ear plugs (which attenuate high frequencies more than low frequencies). [1] Which is still pitiful compared to the hearing of my roommates [2]. [2] http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5205/5202664833_206fa642c5_b.jpg. -- Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist. |
#63
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OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating
On 5/11/2011 7:36 PM, Dan O wrote:
On May 10, 5:57 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI $southslope.net" wrote: On 5/9/2011 5:12 PM, Çhâlõ Çólîñã wrote: [...] What I am saying is that Bach had Palestrina to draw upon, but not the other way around. And Chopin had Bach to draw upon, but not the other way around. Duke Ellington had all of those guys and much more to draw upon (and it shows). Today's able composer has Duke Ellington, and Chopin, and Bach, and Palestrina, all at his fingertips, along with many others those guys were or weren't aware of, such that he can build beyond what they have done. Not every example of music, or architecture, or bicycles, constitutes progress. But the current is a forward-moving one. Good music today can be much better than in Bach's day, and now it doesn't take a unique talent like Bach's to do better than he did. Just like it doesn't take a modern-day James Starley to design and build a much better bike than Starley's. Music rarely benefits from "technical progress" with a few exceptions (without notation, complex pieces for multiple forces would likely not exist). The genius of the composer is what matters, and J.S. Bach has never been surpassed. As a side note, architecture has influenced music, due to the changing performing spaces. Period instruments have better timbrel qualities than modern acoustic [1] instruments, but lack the projection for use in large performance spaces. "Everyone loves J.S. Bach except cretins and those with undeveloped or improperly developed minds." - Tom Sherman [1] The less said about the horrors of electronic amplification with its inherent distortion and often excessive volume [2], the better. [2] Blasting (c)rap at building shaking volume in an apartment complex should be grounds for justifiable homicide. Some decades ago The Rolling Stones "Hot Rocks" was re-issued on LP. As was the latest trend at the time, the tracks were "digitally re- mastered" for better sound. Apparently trying to "clean up" distortion, they had produced the most egregious neutering imaginable... practcally *un*imaginable, in fact. Part and parcel of the original work had been saturation and overload - clean through and all the way to the signal capacity of the vinyl groove - f*&^ing brilliant! The expensive new "digitally remastered" pressings were crap - the essential character had been run over and left for dead. Sorry, but I never understood what all the fuss is about. Of course, Mick Jagger's awful selfish and childish behavior cannot but prejudice. Let me offer an observation that ties this thread into some of the discussion about the craziness of market economics and such: I got the brand-new sealed 4-CD Boxed Set "The Byrds" (with restored Gram Parsons lead vocals (!) for like sisteen dollars. I have like three or four copies of Elton Juhn's "Rock of the Westies" LP (not their best by a longshot, but... ) for like ninety-nine cents each. I find Mr. Dwight to be superficial and annoying, not to mention putting profit over morals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HSClZbhB5g&feature=player_embedded#at=42 . What is up with that? What value art? http://austincitylimits.org/ Billions of dollars have been made producing schlock that has a shelf life of a couple of months. Meanwhile treasures such as this do not even sell enough to pay for production costs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s646zCntaYg. -- Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist. |
#64
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OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating
On 5/11/2011 1:16 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
With schools cutting back on music programs, I wonder where the next brass players are going to come from. The sound of spit valves may soon be a thing of the past. We're going to have Casio keyboards with a synthetic spit valve sound -- and coughing. That's what I love about live orchestral performances -- they always sound like they are being given in a TB ward.-- Jay Beattie. My 2 kids are both talented musicians, having studied woodwind for many years (lots of private lessons). My son played a bunch through HS, but didn't make the cut in college -- the ensemble he wanted to join didn't take any freshmen. He got discouraged and never played in college at all. It's a shame, there seems to be already a surplus of musicians relative to venues. I hope my daughter doesn't follow suit, she spent last summer waitressing to buy a $2K clarinet. Current household tally: 3 clarinets, 2 saxophones, 2 acoustic & 2 electric guitars, banjo, flute, trumpet, 2 sets of harmonicas, electronic keyboard and miscellaneous percussion. |
#65
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OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating
On 5/14/2011 2:59 AM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
Thing is, studio electric guitar (which is *not* recorded acoustically) sounds much better than live electric guitar, since it lacks the nasty distortion products that rapidly fatigue the discerning ear. Artful use of distortion is one of the subtleties of amplified music. Listen to some Lou Harrison playing gamelan or some Koto music. There's a whole wide world of non-whitey music out there. There is some South African choral music that is awesome. Bach is great, but saying it is the best music is like arguing ice cream flavors. Nonsense. We are living in a golden age for music enjoyment. The breadth of music I have (literally) at my fingertips is amazing. I have sound systems in almost every room in the house, and of course cheap portable players that store days worth of recordings. I have huge collections of vinyl and CD's now gathering dust because all I/we do is stream or rip. There's an astounding amount of music out there -- from all times and places. "Everyone loves J.S. Bach except cretins and those with undeveloped or improperly developed minds." - Tom Sherman I always thought Bach was a phase that people went through (like music history did). His music is nice enough, but baroque gets pretty tedious, it's a pretty rigid format -- fine in small doses, but not very sophisticated and dull for a steady diet. I find the tacked on embellishments grating after a (relatively short) while. A little organ goes a long way, too -- ditto for harpsichord. The pinnacle of classical music was the romantic period, and switching to that from baroque feels like being let out of a cage. I'm not so big on post-romantic, but I always figured I just lacked the sophistication for it. As far as taste goes, while I appreciate the mastery of the Germans, they're just so -- German! Italian is more my style, even if it may lack the depth. I admire Beethoven, but usually enjoy Rossini more -- the world's first true rock star! Despite some beautiful and moving music, I'll take secular over liturgical, an opera over a mass. |
#66
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OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating
On May 14, 5:34*am, Peter Cole wrote:
On 5/11/2011 1:16 PM, Jay Beattie wrote: With schools cutting back on music programs, I wonder where the next brass players are going to come from. The sound of spit valves may soon be a thing of the past. We're going to have Casio keyboards with a synthetic spit valve sound -- and coughing. *That's what I love about live orchestral performances -- they always sound like they are being given in a TB ward.-- Jay Beattie. My 2 kids are both talented musicians, having studied woodwind for many years (lots of private lessons). My son played a bunch through HS, but didn't make the cut in college -- the ensemble he wanted to join didn't take any freshmen. He got discouraged and never played in college at all. It's a shame, there seems to be already a surplus of musicians relative to venues. I hope my daughter doesn't follow suit, she spent last summer waitressing to buy a $2K clarinet. Current household tally: 3 clarinets, 2 saxophones, 2 acoustic & 2 electric guitars, banjo, flute, trumpet, 2 sets of harmonicas, electronic keyboard and miscellaneous percussion. You can put on a music camp with all that stuff! I would guess that in your area, there are lots of opportunitites to play -- "B" bands at college, JC bands/orchestras, community bands, etc. After college, I played in JC orchestras and jazz bands -- no regular bands for some reason, and in law schoool, I played in the undergraduate jazz band for fun. I was just wandering around the music department to see what it looked like, and started chatting with the band professor, and he invited me to try out. My current slacker band is a hoot, and only keeps me busy for part of the year. http://www.omtaamb.org/ Around here, if you want to play, there are lots of opportunities -- out front of the Macy's downtown for example.http://www.flickr.com/ photos/surrealperception/184541095/ That guy is really pretty damned good -- a Mariachi player picking up a few bucks on week days. http://www.flickr.com/photos/20384524@N08/2306995108/ -- not so good, but a nice guy who has fallen on hard times. BTW, my sister was a really good clarinetist. She got her MBA at Columbia and supported herself playing in Broadway and off Broadway pit orchestras. During undergraduate, she and her clarinet trio would play on street corners in SF to buy sheet music. She owned and rehabbed a bunch of Buffets. The old ones just go up in price.-- Jay Beattie. |
#67
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OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating
On May 14, 12:13*am, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote: On 5/11/2011 3:19 AM, Çhâlõ Çólîñã wrote: Jay Beattie wrote: Frank Krygowski wrote: Tœm Shermæn wrote: [1] The less said about the horrors of electronic amplification with its inherent distortion and often excessive volume [2], the better. No, I think it's important to talk about the horrors of amplification. *If it ain't wooden, it ain't real music! Electric can be awesome. *Listen to *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s-Oa...eature=related Or if you want electric baroque -- then get my favorite transexual playing Scarlatti.http://wendycarlos.com/cdcovers/WTSN...ndycarlos.com/ Any baroque pipe organist would have traded it all in for a Hammond B-3 or Yamaha DX7 hooked up to a huge wall of Marshall stacks. *I mean, what they were using was the contemporary equivalent (minus versatility, mobility, and output). Except that baroque organs have beautiful timbrel qualities, while electric organs are nasty. *And the buildings the come in are a bonus. Anyone (Tom) who can stand to listen to archaic music on Youtube is chatting nonsense if they object to electrically powered music with decent quality reproduction. I use Utoob mostly as way to find things that I can (hopefully) get in a higher quality medium. I mean, unless you spend your days in the same room with dorks playing Purcell on flageolets, you're still hearing it by way of electronic amplification. But without the high levels of nasty higher order and non-harmonic distortion. I personally prefer human powered sound-- but then my band's acoustic output can be measured in horsepower, and can leave you with rock 'n roll style euphoria and ringing in the ears. *The sound quality is inseparable from the simultaneous exposure to pheremones, discharging spit valves, and possibly confetti. Tinnitus is *not* good, as it indicates permanent damage is taking place. According to my last hearing test, I have the sensitivity of a young child, and can still hear to 20 kHz [1], which explains why I find live amplified music to be literally painful without ear plugs (which attenuate high frequencies more than low frequencies). I had a girl friend in college who could hear those doppler alarms in department stores when they were left on. I always thought that hearing above or around 20K was a curse and not a blessing. My hearing is so rolled off that I'm lucky to hear anything near 15K, but there is not much music up there anyway. Most crappy tube guitar amps aren't putting out anything in the 20K range. I think they purposefully roll them off at about 5K. I would be super surprised if any of the speakers I see at clubs could even reproduce 15K, being mostly woofers with cheesey horns with AGC and designed to put out 130dBs for ten hours without blowing up. You are probably just reacting to the SPLs. You are going to get way more real information in the 20K range sitting front row at a baroque orchestra concert -- or from a screaching French baroque pipe organ. -- Jay Beattie. |
#68
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OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating
On 5/14/2011 10:53 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On May 14, 12:13 am, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI $southslope.net" wrote: On 5/11/2011 3:19 AM, Çhâlõ Çólîñã wrote: Jay Beattie wrote: Frank Krygowski wrote: Tœm Shermæn wrote: [1] The less said about the horrors of electronic amplification with its inherent distortion and often excessive volume [2], the better. No, I think it's important to talk about the horrors of amplification. If it ain't wooden, it ain't real music! Electric can be awesome. Listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s-Oa...eature=related Or if you want electric baroque -- then get my favorite transexual playing Scarlatti.http://wendycarlos.com/cdcovers/WTSN...ndycarlos.com/ Any baroque pipe organist would have traded it all in for a Hammond B-3 or Yamaha DX7 hooked up to a huge wall of Marshall stacks. I mean, what they were using was the contemporary equivalent (minus versatility, mobility, and output). Except that baroque organs have beautiful timbrel qualities, while electric organs are nasty. And the buildings the come in are a bonus. Anyone (Tom) who can stand to listen to archaic music on Youtube is chatting nonsense if they object to electrically powered music with decent quality reproduction. I use Utoob mostly as way to find things that I can (hopefully) get in a higher quality medium. I mean, unless you spend your days in the same room with dorks playing Purcell on flageolets, you're still hearing it by way of electronic amplification. But without the high levels of nasty higher order and non-harmonic distortion. I personally prefer human powered sound-- but then my band's acoustic output can be measured in horsepower, and can leave you with rock 'n roll style euphoria and ringing in the ears. The sound quality is inseparable from the simultaneous exposure to pheremones, discharging spit valves, and possibly confetti. Tinnitus is *not* good, as it indicates permanent damage is taking place. According to my last hearing test, I have the sensitivity of a young child, and can still hear to 20 kHz [1], which explains why I find live amplified music to be literally painful without ear plugs (which attenuate high frequencies more than low frequencies). I had a girl friend in college who could hear those doppler alarms in department stores when they were left on. I always thought that hearing above or around 20K was a curse and not a blessing. My hearing is so rolled off that I'm lucky to hear anything near 15K, but there is not much music up there anyway. No music, but higher order harmonics, which produce the extremely offensive "hash" similar to white noise. Most crappy tube guitar amps aren't putting out anything in the 20K range. I think they purposefully roll them off at about 5K. I would be super surprised if any of the speakers I see at clubs could even reproduce 15K, being mostly woofers with cheesey horns with AGC and designed to put out 130dBs for ten hours without blowing up. You are probably just reacting to the SPLs. Even an "idling" guitar amp sets me on edge, even though the SPL is in the 20 dBA range. When turned off, I feel a sense of relief. You are going to get way more real information in the 20K range sitting front row at a baroque orchestra concert -- or from a screaching French baroque pipe organ. -- Jay Beattie. butbutbut, these lack the higher order and non-harmonic distortions. -- Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007 I am a vehicular cyclist. |
#69
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OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating
On May 14, 8:34*am, Peter Cole wrote:
My 2 kids are both talented musicians, having studied woodwind for many years (lots of private lessons). My son played a bunch through HS, but didn't make the cut in college -- the ensemble he wanted to join didn't take any freshmen. He got discouraged and never played in college at all. It's a shame, there seems to be already a surplus of musicians relative to venues. I hope my daughter doesn't follow suit... I started on clarinet, and later bass clarinet. I sometimes wish I kept my lip in shape, but it's long gone, ever since high school. My fingers still know what to do, though. I think it's a shame that the music training most (musical) kids get in school is directed toward large bands, playing precisely what's on the page, and often slogging around in formation in a muddy athletic field. In our metro area, I'll bet there are well over 100,000 people who played an instrument in a school band. I bet fewer than 2000 of them ever pick one up these days. For a long, long time people socialized via music, and there are a few of us that still do. It can be as few as two people, or as many as a couple hundred sitting around jamming in informal groups under shade trees at a festival. We have fairly regular house sessions, with five to twenty people playing together for fun. It's too bad this isn't encouraged. Current household tally: 3 clarinets, 2 saxophones, 2 acoustic & 2 electric guitars, banjo, flute, trumpet, 2 sets of harmonicas, electronic keyboard and miscellaneous percussion. Let's see: We've got one clarinet, one trumpet, one electronic keyboard, one or two guitars (not sure if one's at my daughter's house), one mountain dulcimer, two mandolins, two fiddles, one flute, one button accordion, a couple ocarinas, about five harmonicas, about six recorders, and at least a dozen tin whistles in various sizes and keys. IOW, I can equip a crew for an excellent Commando Trad effort like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhk-4gT738o - Frank Krygowski |
#70
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OT Living music, was OT Propelled inline skating
...snip... As far as taste goes, while I appreciate the mastery of the Germans, they're just so -- German! Italian is more my style, even if it may lack the depth. I admire Beethoven, but usually enjoy Rossini more -- the world's first true rock star! Despite some beautiful and moving music, I'll take secular over liturgical, an opera over a mass. :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) That's how I feel about Mozart. The whole world is like... Mozart, Mozart, Mozart. But I think that An Italian in Algiers is a better Marriage of Figaro, and what the latter should have been. I never get tired of this video, no matter how many times I watch it, and am insanely jealous of the guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAcSTWitbmQ |
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